Homosexuality

[ladybri77]

God didn’t “make” people to be gay just like he didn’t make people to have other sinful tendencies and weakness. We have a sinful nature because of the Fall in the beginning when sin entered the world. If you would consider man’s fallen nature and maybe the “why” behind why your daughter feels the way she does, I’m sure it would become clearer to you. The reasons why people fell attracted to the same sex point very positively to environmental influences whatever they may be. Please consider this for a moment would you?

Well, for whatever reason, some people turn out to be gay. The question then is ‘is it right for them to express their love physically as straight people do?’ Some do whatever and their love turns out to be wonderful, positive and beneficial to them and others. So we had better find some very good reasons for saying it is sinful.

P.S. My proof that it is biological first is Genesis in the bible, the obvious physical differences between male and females being made for one another,

Yes the first male and female were made for each other but it does not follow that all other males and females were also made for each other! After all Adam was a gardener – am I sinful because I was a teacher?

and the wisdom of the Holy Spirit backed up in holy scripture.

**Other Christians, seeing the lives of gay couples they know, find the Holy Spirit telling them God approves. As to Holy Scripture, you had better quote me the verse. Here is one for you, ‘The Law was made for man, not man for the Law’.**Best wishes

Laurie

Yes, God approves of them, who they are as people made in His image, but He does not approve of sin as it can hurt us in the areas I mentioned above. He loves your daughter unconditionally and we are called to love the way He loves. I knew when I was in the relationship I was in that He still loved me, but He let me know it was wrong, and it did not work. I will get back to your other question later. As far as scriptural verses, there are a few that say this is a sin. FIrst in the New Testament, Romans 1, Genesis 1, and Jesus talks about sexual sin in the New Testament. These scriptures have been posted here before.

One question I have is why do most people who have been sexually abused develop feelings for the same sex if homosexuality is something good? In the case of women, it’s because they don’t trust men. Why in a study of women growing up in alcoholic homes, was there a tendency for them to develop homosexual attractions? All of these studies that have been done and found that the environment in some way has attributed to homosexual feelings developing. I will send you some of the articles when I find them.

PS You did not answer my point about you ‘generalising’.

 

[ladybri77]

ladybri77:
Yes, God approves of them, who they are as people made in His image, but He does not approve of sin as it can hurt us in the areas I mentioned above. He loves your daughter unconditionally and we are called to love the way He loves. I knew when I was in the relationship I was in that He still loved me, but He let me know it was wrong, and it did not work. I will get back to your other question later. As far as scriptural verses, there are a few that say this is a sin. FIrst in the New Testament, Romans 1, Genesis 1, and Jesus talks about sexual sin in the New Testament. These scriptures have been posted here before.

One question I have is why do most people who have been sexually abused develop feelings for the same sex if homosexuality is something good? In the case of women, it’s because they don’t trust men. Why in a study of women growing up in alcoholic homes, was there a tendency for them to develop homosexual attractions? All of these studies that have been done and found that the environment in some way has attributed to homosexual feelings developing. I will send you some of the articles when I find them.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

DavidV

You want some answers – here goes.

**Is homosexuality ordered or disordered? **

That is what we are discussing or more precisely the reasons Catholics give for saying it is disordered.

How do I define right?

I don’t because if I could I would be Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge. However like anyone else I can use the term fairly accurately.

How do I know that gay couple’s love turns out positively? What about their souls?

**Suppose I said that it was wrong to marry a person with red hair. You reply that there are lots of red haired people in successful marriages. I respond that you cannot know that their souls are OK. Can you see that this is an argument you cannot win!

I do not know for certain that every gay couple that have a successful and happy marriage [and their are loads] in actual fact are harming themselves and not happy after all. However it is up to you to show that this unlikely possibility is so.**

Equating sexuality with occupation?

I don’t. But I was looking at the argument which says, Adam and Eve were straight so therefore everyone else ought to be. If so we all ought to be gardeners!

Ladybri

You say;
I knew when I was in the relationship I was in that He still loved me, but He let me know it was wrong, and it did not work. I will get back to your other question later. As far as scriptural verses, there are a few that say this is a sin. FIrst in the New Testament, Romans 1, Genesis 1, and Jesus talks about sexual sin in the New Testament. These scriptures have been posted here before.

Yes but in the OT it is forbidden to sow two different crops in the same field. As for St Paul, he approves of slavery, says marriage in not as good as celibacy, tells women to be silent in church… Not everything in the Bible is correct you know. Jesus said however that religion is not blindly following rules – it is applying the law of love. Try doing that here.

As to the ‘studies’ you mention they cannot prove that my daughter’s love for her partner is wrong – and if you knew them you would realise this.

[Forgive a personal comment. You keep producing argument after argument v gays. When I answer one you do not continue it but produce another. You seem to be desperate to prove that gay love is wrong and it seems, perhaps just possible, that this is really because you have been hurt in a gay relationship yourself? Perhaps I am mistaken but perhaps you might try to rise above your difficulties to see that other gay relationships, unlike yours, are really fulfilling.]

With good wishes

Laurie

 

[scapularkid8]

I would like to point out as a gay man and Catholic that I am very very picky about entering into relationships. I try to find another man who understands right and wrong (ideally who believes in Jesus Christ) or follows some religion propagating love (Judaism, Islam, or Christianity preferably). How can healthy relationships based on mutual respect for God and other life possibly be offensive to the Father? I only choose to enter into relationships that are positive for both of us, it’s a mature decision, not some hedonistic pleasure ride.

“You will love your neighbor as yourself - Behold: I Am YHWH” (Lev 19:18)

“You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.” (Psalm 51)

"Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” (Mark 7:6)

“And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, ‘What commandment is the foremost of all?’ Jesus answered,'The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 'The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28-31)

“That which is hateful to you, do not to to your neighbor. That is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary.”- Hillel

 

[jfoges]

Re: the natural law. The logical extension of that is that all things ‘human’ should occur naturally. Therefore we ought to stop performing life-extending surgeries etc. We can overcome our natural limitations through our intellect.

Natural law theory is an ethical/moral philosophical theory that says there is a norm that our actions should fit into, based on human nature. The idea is that we have a distinct nature and that certain things bring us happiness, and other things don’t. As opposed to the existentialist argument that says that we create our own happiness and values. Natural law says that values are imposed on us by our very nature. If we violate the natural law, we will not achieve the purpose of life which is happiness.

 

[Hanael]

Why is homosexuality, from a logical perspective, wrong?

Logically, it’s because it does not promote the welfare of the human species. However, since the human species is starting to completely overrun the planet and is overpopulating the planet, homosexuality is looking (at least to me) like the human body’s response to the overpopulating because it prevents more children from being born.

I have nothing against homosexuality seeing as I’m bisexual, but I’m also terribly picky about who I enter a relationship with.

 

[davidv]

DavidV

You want some answers – here goes.

**Is homosexuality ordered or disordered? **

That is what we are discussing or more precisely the reasons Catholics give for saying it is disordered.

So what is your answer, and why? Many have provided the Catholic reasons.
**

How do I define right?

**

I don’t because if I could I would be Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge. However like anyone else I can use the term fairly accurately.

If “right” isn’t defined, how could anyone possible answer this question you posed earlier?
Laurie Gibson:

The question then is ‘is it right for them to express their love physically as straight people do?’

**

How do I know that gay couple’s love turns out positively? What about their souls?

**

Suppose I said that it was wrong to marry a person with red hair. You reply that there are lots of red haired people in successful marriages.

Why would I respond this way?
**

I respond that you cannot know that their souls are OK.

**
Proving that you cannot say that homosexual activity causes no spiritual harm.
**

Can you see that this is an argument you cannot win!

**
If this conversation is about winning, I concede. I am not a skilled debater. If this is about finding the truth then maybe there is more to be said.
**

I do not know for certain that every gay couple that have a successful and happy marriage [and their are loads] in actual fact are harming themselves and not happy after all. However it is up to you to show that this unlikely possibility is so.

**
It’s not about success. It’s about faithfulness to God. There are many example of the harm caused. One of them is posting on this thread.

Equating sexuality with occupation?

I don’t. But I was looking at the argument which says, Adam and Eve were straight so therefore everyone else ought to be. If so we all ought to be gardeners!

That is an apples (orientation) to oranges (occupation) comparison and thus invalid.

With good wishes

Laurie

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Foges - you say:

Natural law theory is an ethical/moral philosophical theory that says there is a norm that our actions should fit into, based on human nature. The idea is that we have a distinct nature and that certain things bring us happiness, and other things don’t. As opposed to the existentialist argument that says that we create our own happiness and values. Natural law says that values are imposed on us by our very nature. If we violate the natural law, we will not achieve the purpose of life which is happiness.

**But loads of gay people have happy and fulfilling lifes in gay partnerships so there must be a mistake in this reasoning.

Here it is one mistake * - sex is not justfor reproduction, it is also to *****express love, and this social reason is more important than the physical one of reproduction. **

[It is also incorrect to say that there are only two moral systems open to us]
**

DAVIDV**

You ‘start too many hares’ and I cannot chase them all. Why not stick to answering one simple point - ‘Why is it morally wrong for a faithful gay couple to express their love physically?’ Most non-Catholics see nothing wrong with it at all but your church condemns it with the result that some of these gay couples feel insulted/unhappy etc. Now the church uses what is called ‘natural law’ morality and that is what we should be discussing. Might I suggest you read the start of this post above and try to answer the point I am making carefully, without asking a long series of questions in return?

All the best

Laurie

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Reply to LADYBRI

You say:

One question I have is why do most people who have been sexually abused develop feelings for the same sex if homosexuality is something good? In the case of women, it’s because they don’t trust men. Why in a study of women growing up in alcoholic homes, was there a tendency for them to develop homosexual attractions? All of these studies that have been done and found that the environment in some way has attributed to homosexual feelings developing. I will send you some of the articles when I find them.

Suppose these studies show what you allege. How would that affect the thousands of gay people who have not been abused, or grown up in an alcoholic home? Even if there is some environmental reason for people turning out gay – and, as I understand it nobody actually knows – some people end up loving members of the same sex – the question then is ‘Why can they not obtain happiness by expressing their love physically?’

Another argument answered – I predict you will now produce another! But I am willing to answer them all – or change my mind!

Best wishes

Laurie Gibson

 

[ladybri77]

I would like to point out as a gay man and Catholic that I am very very picky about entering into relationships. I try to find another man who understands right and wrong (ideally who believes in Jesus Christ) or follows some religion propagating love (Judaism, Islam, or Christianity preferably). How can healthy relationships based on mutual respect for God and other life possibly be offensive to the Father? I only choose to enter into relationships that are positive for both of us, it’s a mature decision, not some hedonistic pleasure ride.

“You will love your neighbor as yourself - Behold: I Am YHWH” (Lev 19:18)

“You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.” (Psalm 51)

"Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” (Mark 7:6)

“And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, ‘What commandment is the foremost of all?’ Jesus answered,'The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 'The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28-31)

“That which is hateful to you, do not to to your neighbor. That is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary.”- Hillel

Why do you continually ignore the scriptures in the bible which say homosexual action is a sin?

 

[ladybri77]

Reply to LADYBRI

You say:

One question I have is why do most people who have been sexually abused develop feelings for the same sex if homosexuality is something good? In the case of women, it’s because they don’t trust men. Why in a study of women growing up in alcoholic homes, was there a tendency for them to develop homosexual attractions? All of these studies that have been done and found that the environment in some way has attributed to homosexual feelings developing. I will send you some of the articles when I find them.

Suppose these studies show what you allege. How would that affect the thousands of gay people who have not been abused, or grown up in an alcoholic home? Even if there is some environmental reason for people turning out gay – and, as I understand it nobody actually knows – some people end up loving members of the same sex – the question then is ‘Why can they not obtain happiness by expressing their love physically?’

Another argument answered – I predict you will now produce another! But I am willing to answer them all – or change my mind!

Best wishes

Laurie Gibson

Hi Laurie, ah yes, you seemed to ignore the first paragraph where I did mention “love”, God’s love and how He loves your daughter and her partner. I won’t argue with you any further about the nature of their relationship. However, I will try to explain how the New Testament is God’s New covenant meaning Jesus came in the New Testament with God’s grace to fulfill the law, whereas the times of the day are irrelevant in the old as far as traditions and practices, however, God’s laws on sexuality are the same. For example, we wouldn’t say the Ten Commandments, just because they are in the old Testament, are not true, but Jesus came to fulfill the law, not take it away, and we are saved by grace.

One would have to have a complete conversion of heart and mind to understand this and accept Jesus. I pray that for you.

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Hi LADYBRI You said:

. That in the Bible OT and NT homosexuality is condemned. FI.

I replied:

Yes but in the OT it is forbidden to sow two different crops in the same field. As for St Paul, he approves of slavery, says marriage in not as good as celibacy, tells women to be silent in church… Not everything in the Bible is correct you know. Jesus said however that religion is not blindly following rules – it is applying the law of love. Try doing that here.

Now you say that there are some things in the OT that we no longer have to accept but others - the sexual rules and the ten commandments that we must obey. It happens that I agree with you! Some of the OT rules are correct and others are not. Please answer me this then - it is vital - how do we decide which rules to continue to obey and which to lay aside? The OT says we should not commit adultery - obviously correct, it also says that an adulterer should be stoned - obviously incorrect. What I would like to know - please remain with this and nothing else - how is it to be decided which is which? You can see where I am going because we are discussing which category gay physical love goes in.

Exactly the same applies to the NT. Jesus says nothing about gay sex but Paul condemns it. But he approves of slavery and thinks women should not speak in Church. You do not agree with him on these matters So how do we decide which of Paul’s teachings are correct and which not?

With good wishes

Laurie

 

[ladybri77]

Hi LADYBRI You said:

. That in the Bible OT and NT homosexuality is condemned. FI.

I replied:

Yes but in the OT it is forbidden to sow two different crops in the same field. As for St Paul, he approves of slavery, says marriage in not as good as celibacy, tells women to be silent in church… Not everything in the Bible is correct you know. Jesus said however that religion is not blindly following rules – it is applying the law of love. Try doing that here.

Now you say that there are some things in the OT that we no longer have to accept but others - the sexual rules and the ten commandments that we must obey. It happens that I agree with you! Some of the OT rules are correct and others are not. Please answer me this then - it is vital - how do we decide which rules to continue to obey and which to lay aside? The OT says we should not commit adultery - obviously correct, it also says that an adulterer should be stoned - obviously incorrect. What I would like to know - please remain with this and nothing else - how is it to be decided which is which? You can see where I am going because we are discussing which category gay physical love goes in.

Exactly the same applies to the NT. Jesus says nothing about gay sex but Paul condemns it. But he approves of slavery and thinks women should not speak in Church. You do not agree with him on these matters So how do we decide which of Paul’s teachings are correct and which not?

With good wishes

Laurie

In response to the second question first, slavery was abolished a long time ago and somewhere in the bible, Jesus speaks against it, so obviously Paul was speaking of this as a result of the culture of his day. As long as hundreds of years until the present, sexual sin has always included same sex sin as well as fornication of which Jesus speaks against in the New Testament in which homosexual sex would fall under since fornication is sex between two people who are not married (excluding newly “married” gay couples), of which the church does not recognize. In other words, it is “timeless”.

I guess it just goes with common sense as you say adultery is wrong and should be so in the 21st century. We all know that stoning is no longer acceptable in our socity, but we know that sexual sin is timeless, and that’s how we differentiate, in knowing that sexual sin always has been and always will be throughout the ages, a sin as it can destroy us emotionally, spiritually and physically.

I could say the same about adultery, “Oh, look at that couple, they seem so in love, their love is “beautiful”, it seems to be meeting both their needs, but wait a minute, they are both married, to someone else!”

 

[Laurie_Gibson]

Thank you for your courteous reply.

Let me deal with the last point first. It is possible that adultery is great for the two people involved but what makes it wrong is that it harms lots of other people. The reason that lots of people have changed their minds about gay sex is that it need not harm anyone and it has lots of pluses for the couple concerned. Or at least that is the way it seems to impartial observers. Of course it can go wrong but then so can marriage.

You are right, for hundreds of years people thought gay sex was wrong – their common sense told them so. But for hundreds of years people thought slavery was fine. Well after lots of discussion people changed their minds about slavery and, it seems, now many people are coming to the same conclusion about gay sex. That is why we have to think about it and discuss it coolly as you and I are doing.

You think that sexual sin is timeless but attitudes to sex have changed in many ways. Men and women are now considered equal partners in marriage for example. Sin may be timeless but the question is ‘have we got the sin correct or not?’.

Finally Jesus was certainly for monogamous faithful partnerships between opposite sex couples – whether he would have been for the same between same sex couples is what we are discussing. Now, remember his view on the law – man was made for the law not the other way round. Given that, what do you think he would have said on this issue?

OK – I have dealt with your points but please take them further as you wish.

Best wishes

Laurie

 

[davidv]

{snip}
DAVIDV

You ‘start too many hares’ and I cannot chase them all. Why not stick to answering one simple point - ‘Why is it morally wrong for a faithful gay couple to express their love physically?’

Becauses their physical expression is not love, it is an abomination.

Most non-Catholics see nothing wrong with it at all but your church condemns it with the result that some of these gay couples feel insulted/unhappy etc.

There sin cause their unhappiness.

Now the church uses what is called ‘natural law’ morality and that is what we should be discussing. Might I suggest you read the start of this post above and try to answer the point I am making carefully, without asking a long series of questions in return?

All the best

Laurie

 

[Luke_K]

Finally Jesus was certainly for monogamous faithful partnerships between opposite sex couples – whether he would have been for the same between same sex couples is what we are discussing. Now, remember his view on the law – man was made for the law not the other way round. Given that, what do you think he would have said on this issue?

Jesus’ thoughts on male-female sexuality are made clear in the Bible: “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”

Regardless that Jesus was specifically addressing the issue of divorce, he clearly states that man is made for woman and woman for man, and that they become one flesh in the marital embrace. He also states that not everyone is capable of marriage.

 

[scapularkid8]

Why do you continually ignore the scriptures in the bible which say homosexual action is a sin?

Because I am not a Pharisee, and these passages are highly contested (as evidenced by these forums) in and outside of Catholicism.

Thank you for your honest concern though.

 

[WatchingMedia]

Homosexual behavior is a mortal sin.
All sex outside of marriage (defined as between one man and one woman) is forbidden.

Anyone in mortal sin can not receive the Eucharist. This includes sexual activity of unmarried heterosexuals and well as homosexuals.

Celebate/chaste homosexuals can fully participate in the Church.

“Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masterbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.” 2396

See “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” first printed in 2000.

 

[WatchingMedia]

After reading more comments, seems some people have several specious arguments if they choose to be Catholic.

The Bible and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” as revised in accordance with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul and with the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger are Catholic REQUIRED beliefs.

Anything else is heresy.
Personal opinions with specious arguements and assumptions are fruitless. Get over it, as long as you wish to be Catholic. Your desent is wrong. Homosexual behavior is a mortal sin.

 

[scapularkid8]

Your desent is wrong.

You sound like Jonah

Heretics and descenters in good company:

Abraham
Moses
Job
Israel
Jesus Christ
Kepha/Peter
Joan of Arc
Teresa of Avila
John of the Cross
Pio
John of Patmos
Joseph of Aramethia
Thomas Moore
Thomas the Apostle
Stephen Protomartyr
Paul

The Spirit’s hallmark is movement, not complacency.

"The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation: 'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I sill spew you out of my mouth…I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich…He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ " (Rev.3:14-16, 18,22)