Homosexuality

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Laurie_Gibson said:
Just for the record:

I have never said that morality is subjective and not objective.

In fact the matter is not black and white and it would take a few pages for me to explain my views on this issue.

Just so you posters know!

Laurie

PS But I am not going to engage in a discussion on the matter - refer to any good book on ethics.
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Forgive me, I was mistaken. But I also don’t think it would have mattered. I was merely using it as an example.
 
camerong said:
It seems that your argument presupposes the existence of God, does it not? If there is no God, then the logical-moral connection breaks.

Perhaps I am being dense, but I still think you are making a number of jumps. First, it is a jump to say that homosexual sex is illogical. It’s certainly not illogical by the participants, their logic for wanting to do it is quite clear and cogent. I can’t think of any other way to even evaluate the logic of an act. Both Laurie and I have brought this up, and you haven’t resolved this issue.

Second, I still don’t see how just because it is illogical means it is immoral. Why couldn’t God allow something that’s irrational and yet moral? I’ve read through your previous post several times, and I still don’t understand.

Further, by the same view, is not kissing per se immoral? Our mouths are clearly not intended for putting them on each other, so by your definition, kissing would be illogical, and because it is illogical, it is immoral.
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  1. Since God was already in this conversation, I saw no reason to leave Him out. Just because I SAY something is logical, by the means of I WANT it to be logical I.E. - this is what i want to do, and it makes sense to me - does not make it logical. Is it logical to bash your head in with a hammer in order to remove a headache? No…it is an illogical act. Suicide seems completely logical to the one who attempts it - yet to everyone else it is an extreme act, and illogical to most. OBJECTIVE logic seems to be what you are hung up on. Maybe if you think about it some more? She seems to be getting what I’m saying.
  2. Do you agree that God is both Logical and Moral?
  3. I never said that everything that was illogical/irrational was immoral. Strawman.
Pax

John
 
Hi Laurie,
This is a Catholic Answers site. You can write all you want, but on average you will get Catholic Answers (beliefs).
If you are not interested, there is no need to continue.

“Homosexual activity is sinful”. We hate the sin, but love the person.
All sexual activity outside of marriage (as defined between one man and one women), is a sin.
You won’t get converts on this site.
 
PraRFLEsEkHm said:
  1. Since God was already in this conversation, I saw no reason to leave Him out. Just because I SAY something is logical, by the means of I WANT it to be logical I.E. - this is what i want to do, and it makes sense to me - does not make it logical. Is it logical to bash your head in with a hammer in order to remove a headache? No…it is an illogical act. Suicide seems completely logical to the one who attempts it - yet to everyone else it is an extreme act, and illogical to most. OBJECTIVE logic seems to be what you are hung up on. Maybe if you think about it some more? She seems to be getting what I’m saying.
  2. Do you agree that God is both Logical and Moral?
  3. I never said that everything that was illogical/irrational was immoral. Strawman.
Pax

John
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Re: 1) The examples you give differ from homosexual sex. Bashing one’s head in to relieve a headache, and committing suicide (presumably to end some kind of suffering), are both ineffective because they do not achieve their goal and are inappropriate because there are typically other ways of doing so. With homosexual sex, the goal is intimacy and pleasure. The sex is effective at reaching the goal, and there are no other ways for the participants to reach that goal (at least in their current state when they find themselves attracted to members of the same sex).

I’m not getting hung up on objective logic, I’m getting hung up on the idea that an act can be logical. It cannot. It’s simply not the kind of thing that is logical or illogical. And you can keep repeating it, but that doesn’t make it true, and you haven’t even attempted to show how it is true.

I understand why you used God in your analysis, but the question is, does it still work without him? I’m interested in seeing whether this line of thinking could be used to converse with an atheist. If there is no God, it’s very hard to see why morality–wherever derived–would prohibit homosexual sex.
  1. I won’t agree about God being logical, because I have no idea what you mean by logical. Your version of logical appears to somehow mean “acting as designed,” which is a definition I’ve never heard of, and I can’t see how it could describe God.
  2. Please review the distinction between straw man and counter-examples. I used it as a counter example that, according to your logic, should also be illogical and thus unnatural. I was not making some argument on your behalf so I can reject it. It seems to me that kissing would have a similar result under your logic. Can you show me how this is not true?
 
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