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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Once again I ask: So what?
Unnatural isn’t the same as bad, nor is natural the same as good.
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NE_Catholic
Guest
“Grant me the patience…”
whoever introduced that?
I merely state it was unnatural and Seeker (too many atheists named seeker here) spun into something else.
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Seeker2010
Guest
True, but irrelevant. For humanity is not, nor will it ever be exclusively homosexual. Homosexuality is not a disease, and does not spread. Those who are gay, are gay. Those who are not, are not.
Really? Why is that? My wife if voluntarily infertile, as we desire no further children, does that make us evil?
Really? What metric(s) are you using to make that statement?
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Seeker2010
Guest
Pleasure is in the eye of the experiencer, to be sure. I am sure I find some things pleasurable that you would not, and vice versa. So what?
That’s not an argument nor is it a point. It is a declaration without support. It is meaningless.
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NE_Catholic
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St_Francis
Guest
Homosexual activity is not limited to those who are homosexual. Altho we now find that those who identify themselves as homosexual make up only 1 or 2% of the population, Kinsey was able to find 10% who had admitted to homosexual relations. Believe me, there are predatory homosexuals out there, and that means that “spread” is occurring.
Catholics are enjoined not to judge individuals–we are supposed to leave that up to God. However, I can say that using artificial forms of birth control is objectively a mortal sin; how much culpability you would have is not up to me to determine.
Like I said in my previous post: suicide rates to depression rates to prison rates to substance abuse rates to…
Maybe you have some knowledge of how much happier we have all become since the sexual revolution?
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Seeker2010
Guest
There are also predatory homosexuals. Predatory is predatory, and should be punished regardless, but it does NOT spread homosexuality. Saying it over and over again doesn’t change that fact. You’re either straight, bi, gay, or transgendered. Very, very few people wake up one day with a different orientation than they had the day before. I’m sure it happens from time to time, but not frequently enough to be statistically significant.
Seems your assuming facts not in evidence, not that that shocks me.
Suicide rates are actually down pretty significantly: suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#death-rates
Incarceration rates are indeed up, but that’s mostly because of the war on (some) drugs. Drug offenders in prison have risen 12x since 1980. Not sure how that amounts to our society being in decline.
While I was unable to find any statistics vis-a-vis substance abuse, my guess is that you don’t have any either and are just making assumptions.
But, hey, abortions, divorce, unwanted pregnancies, and STD’s are all down substantially.
Look, I get it. You look around and you see things going to hell in a handbasket. People are getting their freak on left and right, there’s skin on billboards and on TV, and it’s sex, sex, sex every time you turn around. So things MUST be getting worse, right?
Except they’re really not.
Don’t know, I wasn’t here, but I can tell you that Norman Rockwell’s version of ‘the good old days’ was an illusion.
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edwest2
Guest
Sad that the last statement is part of the tool box of the average modern person who discounts religion.
I was born in the mid 1950s, and the shrill, angry voices of the antiwomen women have done their best to paper over the reality of what was going on. Their Leftist colored glasses cannot allow them to see anything other than disorder and class conflict. What a wretched world to live in.
The average number of kids in my neighborhood was T W O, not 10. Women were not chained to the kitchen stove. Kids were taught to be polite. We said please and thank you. We called older people Mister and Missus. We were taught to not cuss or swear and to be modest in dress. Young ladies and young men had a common set of rules of engagement that allowed for friendship and romance to develop between total strangers.
Dating never involved ‘hooking up.’ I was taught to have the utmost respect for women. Dating actually meant really getting to know the other person, not shooting first and asking questions afterward. Parents from both sides got to know each other. If one or both wanted to marry, there was courtship - a weeding out process. If all were still agreeable, people got engaged and planned for a future together. That was normal life.
But the shrill voice of those who hated families began to be heard. One called the family “a comfortable concentration camp.” - Betty Friedan
The Sexual Revolution was a failure.
catholic.org/featured/reality.php?ID=1493
It was an assault on morals and decency. But, boy oh boy, perverts had to work to get judges and lawyers to legalize porn and open all those Adult Bookstores in our neighborhoods. And Swinger magazines filled with people who wanted to engage in adultery and fornication. Throw in some strip clubs and topless bars. Then convince the Supreme Court that emanations and penumbras from the Constitution made it OK to kill your baby.
And Hollywood. Let’s phase out love and romance and just have couples having sex and declaring each other a couple. In the meantime, let’s legalize No-Fault Divorce. Gotta tear those families apart and take it to the next level. Forget relationships, let’s just show attractive people on TV who have ‘just sex.’ Does it matter? Who knows? Usually it’s the woman who doesn’t think so.
The time is up. Everybody got their big chance over the last 40 years to show us Christians that their ‘alternative lifestyle’ was better than our normal, established, functional way of living. My TV is gone - I’m tired of watching dysfunctional living from Hollywood. It turns my stomach.
God bless,
Ed
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
No, I am questioning the heart of your argument.
You seem to be saying that homosexual acts are bad because their not natural (unnatural). But I am using examples to demonstrate that the unnatural and artificial can be good, and is certainly not automatically bad.
Besides, your wrong.
Homosexuality is NOT unnatural.
Otherwise it would not occur in the animal kingdom (unless you believe animals can actively sin).
It may be unproductive and abnormal, but that is not the same as harmful or evil.
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Winstone
Guest
I can only speak as a homosexual, who is a Roman Catholic, and within the ‘Gay’ community there are all kinds of individuals just as there are in the heterosexual or ‘Straight’ community. As if my sexual preference defines me. If my same-sex preference is wrong, then I cite the many other laws of Leviticus to be applied in modern Catholic teaching. I owe everything to Jesus Christ’s act of redemption on the Cross - just like the rest of humanity. Like the dogs, I catch the crumbs that fall from the Master’s table. In Him I am everything and without Him I am nothing. My witness to the miracle of salvation leaves no one outside of God’s mercy. My faith has taught me to love mankind without exception and the shadow of the Cross is over all people, even the homosexuals. Where does one draw the line on sinful behaviour? I am a sinner! I rely on God’s grace, like you, everyday. If homosexual activity (and that is what you really mean) is a problem, then I would ask you to consider the profanity of the weopons industry, the continued inequality within Christian American society - be it Catholic or Protestant, the admiration and glorification of wealth, the promotion of war in our Christian Nations when ‘‘Thou shalt not kill’’ screams at us from the Commandments of God, then my loving a man looks like sweetheart love at a Kindergarten. We overfeed, overcloth and spoil ourselves at the expense of the poor. We worry about our weight, our hair, our looks, our clothes, our smell, our everything - how pagan we really are. We should be longing for hearts of compassion, ask God for hope for the lost and to give us a compassion for those who are broken and down. The compassion of Christ Jesus is what we all want when we meet him - don’t deny it to others.
I was once asked: ‘‘When did you decide to be a homosexual?’’ to which I replied: ‘‘When did you decide to be straight?’’ Such silliness and such a lack of love coming from my Christian brothers and sisters. The obvious creation of male and female does not answer the questions of human behaviour that simply. Perhaps you might like to consider what I have said. I am sure you are a loving person and wouldn’t want to hurt me at all, but I have heard so much ‘****’ from my own family, society and the Church (and I mean you) that for many years has alienated me from themselves, but never from Jesus, my loving Lord and Saviour. If only being Gay was my only sin!!! God love you, Winstone
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AngryAtheist8
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I was born in the mid 1950s, and the shrill, angry voices of the antiwomen women have done their best to paper over the reality of what was going on. Their Leftist colored glasses cannot allow them to see anything other than disorder and class conflict. What a wretched world to live in.
God bless,
Ed
I am curious as to how you would define anti-women women.
Would the Suffragettes of the late 19th and early 20th century fall into that category?
God bless,
Ed
I am curious as to how you would define anti-women women.
Would the Suffragettes of the late 19th and early 20th century fall into that category?
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NE_Catholic
Guest
you are reading into it too much
I said one act was unnatural
you and seeker lost your minds and threw in all kinds of other things
Homosexuality is abnormal not unnatural, but that is a different arguement
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
All right, if homosexuality is not bad because its unnatural, then why is it bad?
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NE_Catholic
Guest
where did I say homosexuality (the attraction to the same sex) is bad?
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AngryAtheist8
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Are you drawing a distinction between the expression of homosexuality (homosexual acts) and homosexuality itself?where did I say homosexuality (the attraction to the same sex) is bad?
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NE_Catholic
Guest
That’s what Catholics do.
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edwest2
Guest
Hello Winstone,
We can never solve one problem by pointing to other problems that need solutions. This is called diversion and does nothing to help the topic at hand.
We are all sinners here. All of us.
God bless,
Ed
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edwest2
Guest
I am curious as to how you would define anti-women women.
Would the Suffragettes of the late 19th and early 20th century fall into that category?
Anyone who calls the family “a comfortable concentration camp” is no friend of women or the family. Betty Friedan
“A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Gloria Steinem. Publisher of Ms. magazine and yes, that’s where that word came from.
Go to the National Organization for Women web site and see what they are for. By the way, NOW has a ‘no position’ position on prostitution. And they don’t seem to be bothered by Female Chauvenist Pigs as portrayed on Sex and the City.
now.org/
God bless,
Ed
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Winstone,
It touches me that your first post on CAF is about this huge cross you are carrying. It is indeed a trial, just as it has been all through the life of my own brother, also a homosexual Catholic. He suffers and feels broken. He is part of my nightly prayers and Mass intentions every Sunday. If your family is Catholic, your family members are praying for you as well.
In the gospels, Jesus talked about all sinful behavior, not singling homosexuality. But He was not silent.
As you wrote, your homosexual preference does not define you. So there is a big part of you that’s pleasing to our Lord Jesus. Your cross would be heavier, though, if you pursue the line of thinking that going beyond SSA to active lusting and action on that attraction can be hidden from Him because there are far greater sins around committed by other men and women. True reconciliation would be harder to achieve.
The above is not to say I am less of a sinner than you or my brother. May God bless you.
Your sister in Christ,
ISG
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