Homosexuality

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I have a question. Are Anti-Gay laws considered unjust? Of course, it’s natural for us to refuse gay marriage or pro-gay rights but what about the persecution of homosexuals or the removal of homosexuals of a country or anyone born a homosexual is to be disowned or in extreme cases, executed?

Another one, should gays even HAVE civil rights? It doesn’t seem fair to me that they don’t…

EDIT: Dont get me wrong, I’m against homosexuality but not homosexuals (Love the sinner, hate the sin)
 
I have a question. Are Anti-Gay laws considered unjust? Of course, it’s natural for us to refuse gay marriage or pro-gay rights but what about the persecution of homosexuals or the removal of homosexuals of a country or anyone born a homosexual is to be disowned or in extreme cases, executed?

Another one, should gays even HAVE civil rights? It doesn’t seem fair to me that they don’t…

EDIT: Dont get me wrong, I’m against homosexuality but not homosexuals (Love the sinner, hate the sin)
PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS:

The condition of having same sex attraction should not, in any way, be criminalized. As you point out, that is just plain wrong.

Homosexual activity should be proscribed by society and, if done in public, should be punishable. (to be clear, I do not believe that the government should be monitoring peoples’ bedrooms, but, on the other hand, I do think that things like Craigslist advertising for one night stands should not be allowed…note: not that I think that it should be allowed for heterosexual hookups either). The only way I could see to do that is through making the activity illegal (in as much as then Craigslist or whatever else, would be advertising for illegal activity). Again, though, I do not think that the government should be bursting into peoples’ bedrooms.

If there was a way to do so within the constraints of the First Amendment (within the USA), I would like to see advocacy for homosexuality and propaganda for homosexuality be proscribed, as well. The only way that I can see this being possible is by making the activity, itself, illegal. That doesn’t mean that I want the government going into peoples’ bedrooms; but I do not want to see this pushed on society.

I would like to see aggressive police action against those who attempt to corrupt the youth and for those who spread HIV (but this goes for anybody).

I recognize that none of the above will happen and that the country is beyond the tipping point. But that doesn’t mean that I’ll stop.
 
Everyone here offered wonderful fact based support, compassion and understanding to question.

I am sad when groups of people are misinformed and think Catholics hate.😦
 
Thank you very much for the replies, I just wanted another point of view when it comes to the subject.

Also, christus, I meant to offense when I said “the bible was written a rather long time a go, and has frankly, outdated beliefs when compared to today.”. I did not mean that what it teaches is wrong, I was saying that the opinion on what people thought when it was written is outdated. For example, many people used to beleive that the world was flat. This has been proven otherwise. Also, 50 years ago it was bad to be black. Now it is not. Social views change, maybe some were portrayed in the bible.
Don’t worry, I didn’t take offense. I didn’t intend to come across as blunt. But yes, you are correct in saying that people in the past have held certain beliefs that have been proved false. Social views do change, but truth does not. For example, discrimination based on race is always wrong under every circumstance. 50 years ago, this certainly didn’t seem like the case because racism was a social norm. Since then, we have made great progress (at least in America) with racial equality. This is not because the truth about racism changed (racism was always and will always be wrong), but because our society has become more in line with the truth that racism is evil because all men are created equal.

Unfortunately, the attitude towards homosexuality has gone in the opposite direction. 50 years ago, homosexuality was almost universally recognized as disordered (this is not to excuse the atrocities committed against homosexuals). Today, many openly support homosexuality. But the truth has always been the same - that homosexuality is disordered. The irony is that our society thinks that supporting homosexuality is “progress”, when it is actually moral regression. When a society considers drifting further and further away from Truth as “progress” (as ours generally does), one can only imagine the catastrophic outcome.
 
Grace & Peace!
Unfortunately, the attitude towards homosexuality has gone in the opposite direction. 50 years ago, homosexuality was almost universally recognized as disordered (this is not to excuse the atrocities committed against homosexuals). Today, many openly support homosexuality. But the truth has always been the same - that homosexuality is disordered. The irony is that our society thinks that supporting homosexuality is “progress”, when it is actually moral regression. When a society considers drifting further and further away from Truth as “progress” (as ours generally does), one can only imagine the catastrophic outcome.
You may want to be a little more careful here, CV. The medical/psychiatric communities once viewed homosexuality as presenting a mental or physical pathology–it was considered a disorder of the mind or body just as anything thought to be a disease would be considered a disorder of the mind or body. Whether or not homosexuality constituted a moral disorder was never quite part of the medical diagnosis. However, when no evidence of mental or physical pathology could actually be found in those who experienced an attraction to other people of the same sex, and when no mental or physical pathology could be definitively linked to the mere presence of same-sex attraction in a given individual, homosexuality was subsequently no longer considered a mental or physical disorder.

The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding homosexuality, however, do not address themselves to whether or not homosexuality is mentally or physically pathological. They address themselves to whether or not a particular act is moral, which is to say, whether or not the act is intrinsically disordered. The teachings further consider whether or not an orientation to such an act or a *desire for *such an act can be considered analogously (in this case, objectively as opposed to intrinsically) morally disordered.

Do you see the distinction between the two approaches? The diagnosis of disorder from the medical/psychiatric community never actually addressed the morality of the condition, but simply took for granted that homosexuality was a mental or physical pathology or disorder. In a similar way, the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching that homosexuality represents a moral disorder (either intrinsically in the act or objectively in the desire) does not depend on whether or not homosexuality is a mental or physical disorder–it depends on a particular understanding of the morality of a discrete act. Whatever the genesis of homosexuality might be–whether physical or psychological–and whether or not the presence of homosexual desire in a person is indicative of some sort of pathology has nothing really to do with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching regarding the morality of an act and the moral correctness of a disposition to that act. The catechism does not say that anyone is physically or mentally ill if they are same-sex attracted. What it says is that, in terms of morality, an attraction to an intrinsically disordered act represents an objective disorder.

Which is all to say: it doesn’t make sense to conflate a medical diagnosis of disorder with a moral diagnosis of disorder. They were never the same thing, and they do not currently affect each other. Moreover, the medical determination that homosexuality does not represent a pathological physical or mental disorder is, in fact, progress because it reflects reality: there is no scientific evidence that same-sex attraction is, in itself, pathological.

The distinctions are subtle, but important and worth making if we value truth and accuracy.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Which is all to say: it doesn’t make sense to conflate a medical diagnosis of disorder with a moral diagnosis of disorder. They were never the same thing, and they do not currently affect each other. Moreover, the medical determination that homosexuality does not represent a pathological physical or mental disorder is, in fact, progress because it reflects reality: there is no scientific evidence that same-sex attraction is, in itself, pathological.

The distinctions are subtle, but important and worth making if we value truth and accuracy.
But it has to be conceded that the desire is driven by some unnatural force as the actions desired aren’t accommodated in any way by same sex coupling. ie. the seed finds its natural home in the womb and from the first tingling of sexual desire to the final climactic thrust, nature is demanding that outcome. Aquinas says that divine law presupposes natural law and the two cannot be in open contradiction.
 
Hello.
I am not a member of the religious community, so do not belong here. I am an Athiest. And before you ban me from this forum, how about you allow me to have a little discussion. I am rather open minded, and will not be offended.

Here’s my question; Do you, and why do you, hate homosexuals and other members of the LGBT community. I understand that “the bible tells you too”, but the bible was written a rather long time a go, and has frankly, outdated beliefs when compared to today. Second of all, your religon is based apon love, right? So why hate someone based on something that means a lot to them.

here’s some quotes:

“The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” - Mark 12:31

“Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.” - Romans 12:9

Even if you see homosexuals as your enemy, read this:

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” - Luke 6:35

Thank you, I look forward to reading your responses.
You’ve probably realized by now that you’re absolutely right about it being wrong to hate homosexuals- even practicing homosexuals! We have several members of these forums who experience SSA (same-sex attraction), but who have made the admirable choice not to act on those desires. Some are celibate, and others are in marriages (with the opposite sex, of course :)), but all are doing their best. We certainly don’t hate them, and it would be a sin if we did.

If you’re asking me personally, I say of course I don’t hate LGBT people. I have a few friends who don’t consider themselves straight, and while we don’t always agree on everything, we’re still friends. To be honest, it doesn’t come up much. We’re mostly friends because we take the same classes and like speculative fiction, or because we’re in the same activities.

As far as banning you goes, why would we? We have plenty of atheist members here, plus Protestants, Jews, pagans, and at least one wiccan. Nobody gets banned unless they break the forum rules, regardless of what sins they are committing offline. Feel free to stay as long as you like, just remember to be respectful of everybody. 👍
 
Too many people have a misconception of the Catholic Church. You are not the first one to say that the Catholics hate gays. I for one do not hate gays but do find their activities to be rather strange. Men were made to have sex with women not men.
 
Grace & Peace!

You may want to be a little more careful here, CV. The medical/psychiatric communities once viewed homosexuality as presenting a mental or physical pathology–it was considered a disorder of the mind or body just as anything thought to be a disease would be considered a disorder of the mind or body. Whether or not homosexuality constituted a moral disorder was never quite part of the medical diagnosis. However, when no evidence of mental or physical pathology could actually be found in those who experienced an attraction to other people of the same sex, and when no mental or physical pathology could be definitively linked to the mere presence of same-sex attraction in a given individual, homosexuality was subsequently no longer considered a mental or physical disorder.

The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding homosexuality, however, do not address themselves to whether or not homosexuality is mentally or physically pathological. They address themselves to whether or not a particular act is moral, which is to say, whether or not the act is intrinsically disordered. The teachings further consider whether or not an orientation to such an act or a *desire for *such an act can be considered analogously (in this case, objectively as opposed to intrinsically) morally disordered.

Do you see the distinction between the two approaches? The diagnosis of disorder from the medical/psychiatric community never actually addressed the morality of the condition, but simply took for granted that homosexuality was a mental or physical pathology or disorder. In a similar way, the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching that homosexuality represents a moral disorder (either intrinsically in the act or objectively in the desire) does not depend on whether or not homosexuality is a mental or physical disorder–it depends on a particular understanding of the morality of a discrete act. Whatever the genesis of homosexuality might be–whether physical or psychological–and whether or not the presence of homosexual desire in a person is indicative of some sort of pathology has nothing really to do with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching regarding the morality of an act and the moral correctness of a disposition to that act. The catechism does not say that anyone is physically or mentally ill if they are same-sex attracted. What it says is that, in terms of morality, an attraction to an intrinsically disordered act represents an objective disorder.

Which is all to say: it doesn’t make sense to conflate a medical diagnosis of disorder with a moral diagnosis of disorder. They were never the same thing, and they do not currently affect each other. Moreover, the medical determination that homosexuality does not represent a pathological physical or mental disorder is, in fact, progress because it reflects reality: there is no scientific evidence that same-sex attraction is, in itself, pathological.

The distinctions are subtle, but important and worth making if we value truth and accuracy.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Perhaps I overstepped my expertise when I spoke of how homosexuality was perceived 50 years ago, and I am certainly no expert in the history behind the psychology of homosexuality. I should have been more clear that the actual homosexual act is disordered, whereas homosexual attraction only has the inclination to commit the act.

Anyway, I was simply trying to demonstrate that the homosexual lifestyle has become more accepted by modern society than it ever was in the history of the Christian faith. And this acceptance has not only come from secularists, but also from many mainline Christian denominations. I am trying to illustrate how society is claiming that the acceptance of homosexuality is labeled “progress”, when it is really the opposite - it is moral regression.
 
Waffle111 I just wanted to say welcome to CAF. We accept all types of members. I hope by reading some of these posts you will get to learn the true meaning of the Catholic Church.

Do not listen to what you hear but seek the truth. The Catholic Church is a wonderful Church. I do not hate you but on the contrary I am concerned for you just as I am concerned for my atheist friends. Hell is real. Rejection of Jesus Christ could lead you there. It is eternal. Stick around and ask some questions. I pray that you will learn something.
 
Hello.
I am not a member of the religious community, so do not belong here. I am an Athiest. And before you ban me from this forum, how about you allow me to have a little discussion. I am rather open minded, and will not be offended.

Here’s my question; Do you, and why do you, hate homosexuals and other members of the LGBT community. I understand that “the bible tells you too”, but the bible was written a rather long time a go, and has frankly, outdated beliefs when compared to today. Second of all, your religon is based apon love, right? So why hate someone based on something that means a lot to them.

here’s some quotes:

“The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” - Mark 12:31

“Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.” - Romans 12:9

Even if you see homosexuals as your enemy, read this:

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” - Luke 6:35

Thank you, I look forward to reading your responses.
Dude you’ve got you denominations crossed. (Yes I’m defending Catholics no one have a heart attack)
 
Hello.
I am not a member of the religious community, so do not belong here. I am an Athiest. And before you ban me from this forum, how about you allow me to have a little discussion. I am rather open minded, and will not be offended.
According to the forum guidelines all people are welcome here so long as they engage in a respectful discussion. You won’t get banned for being an atheist. There are quire a few regulars here.
 
According to the forum guidelines all people are welcome here so long as they engage in a respectful discussion. You won’t get banned for being an atheist. There are quire a few regulars here.
And some pagans. If we’re allowed, I’m sure you are.
 
Grace & Peace!
But it has to be conceded that the desire is driven by some unnatural force as the actions desired aren’t accommodated in any way by same sex coupling. ie. the seed finds its natural home in the womb and from the first tingling of sexual desire to the final climactic thrust, nature is demanding that outcome. Aquinas says that divine law presupposes natural law and the two cannot be in open contradiction.
This is probably for another thread entirely, but I don’t know that any concession must be made: “nature” isn’t really capable of demanding anything, and biology need not be construed as an indication of any sort of fatalistic necessity binding on either a group (humanity) or an individual. The structures of the body are variously capable of a variety of things–whether it is moral or immoral to exercise any of these capacities is a function not of “nature” but of a perception of value (moral or otherwise) and the various arguments made to justify how that value is deduced. But surely structural determinism (personified here as “nature”) is not (and should not be) the only criteria by which we have to evaluate moral value. I.e., celibacy is a value, notwithstanding the frustrated yearning of countless seeds to find their “natural home”…

Suffice to say, I’m not very big on natural law arguments, LongingSoul, and am no great fan of the medieval scholastic impulse either. I suspect that there is too much of the horror vacui in scholasticism for it to ever admit that there are times when things and acts that are utterly or even unspeakably useless can be quite beautiful. For all of its difficulties (particularly to a Christian!), I find Bataille’s elaboration of “non-knowledge” and the irrational–and his metaphor of an intellectual “dilation of the blind spot”–to be a nice remedy to scholasticism’s exhausting and constant striving to make the world (including God!) practical, useful, and ultimately known.

I’d be more sympathetic to an argument that starts from an idea of vocation than one which starts from an idea of “nature’s” demands. But my understanding of vocation is that it invites us to specific relationships to things and to people, but not to specific acts per se–i.e., it defines a pattern of being-towards to which we are called, but not a “one size fits all” sort of instruction manual on how precisely to go about living into that pattern. So our ideas may still wind up differing in the end.

Anyway…like I said: maybe for another thread.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Thanks for this question, but you have to understand that you are asking for information on why something is the way it is, even though it actually is not that way. The Church teaches that homosexuality in itself is not a sin. Rather, the act is the sin. The Church also teaches that the greatest commandments are to Love God, and love thy neighbour as you love yourself. That’s the way it should be. No matter what.
 
Thanks for this question, but you have to understand that you are asking for information on why something is the way it is, even though it actually is not that way. The Church teaches that homosexuality in itself is not a sin. Rather, the act is the sin. The Church also teaches that the greatest commandments are to Love God, and love thy neighbour as you love yourself. That’s the way it should be. No matter what.
Yes. OP, if your looking for a good time you need to go find a conservative protestant nutter forum. 😃
 
This is probably for another thread entirely, but I don’t know that any concession must be made: “nature” isn’t really capable of demanding anything, and biology need not be construed as an indication of any sort of fatalistic necessity binding on either a group (humanity) or an individual. The structures of the body are variously capable of a variety of things–whether it is moral or immoral to exercise any of these capacities is a function not of “nature” but of a perception of value (moral or otherwise) and the various arguments made to justify how that value is deduced. But surely structural determinism (personified here as “nature”) is not (and should not be) the only criteria by which we have to evaluate moral value. I.e., celibacy is a value, notwithstanding the frustrated yearning of countless seeds to find their “natural home”…
I simply cannot see any way of making moral laws outside of natural law considerations. Whether we admit it or not, we are naturally/biolgically driven by survival; both self-preservation and preservation of the species. We know that by the way the body is built to heal without any intellectual willing and the way that pretty much every relationship in nature is motivated by either self or species preservation. In times of national defense it has been proven that the suicide rate drops to virtually nil demonstrating that the desire to survive is instinctive.

Religious celibacy is not a rejection of that basic nature. It demonstrates the capacity for human beings to embrace the family ideal ie father, mother, brother , sister in the spirit of Jesus example of mans relationship with God. Our bodies are a temple and you could say a tabernacle of the essence of life. The calling of nature upon that comes in the form of sexual desire. Religious celibates make themselves through practice, available to the call of spiritual desire for communion with God and their bodies remain a sacred tabernacle to the essence of life.

On the other hand, if people engage their sexual desire intentionally avoiding the destination from where the calling originates,they basically contribute to evolutionary suicide. People who habitually misappropriate the call of sexual desire to the natural communion it was designed for , eventually lose the capacity to have natural species ordered relationships and won’t be capable of leaving a legacy based on truth for the generations to come.
 
I don’t know of any rule here that bans atheists from participating in CAF. I think the one rule that exists is that, since this is a Catholic forum, that you respect our beliefs – that doesn’t mean that you have to agree with them…but it generally means no cheap shots.

Anyway, welcome.

I am probably one of the most outspoken here on the subject. I do not hate homosexuals. I believe that homosexuality (that is, the tendency of one to be sexually attracted to a member of the same sex) is disordered. The reason why I say that it is disordered is because if the desire is acted upon, the act is always sinful…there are no possible mitigating factors involved that would make it not sinful. More on that in a minute.

I have eminent respect for those who have same sex attraction but who choose to act in accordance with the laws of God and the laws of nature (that is to restrain those desires).

As for the act of sodomy itself, it is a violation of both the laws of God and is a violation of the laws of nature. You, yourself, have quoted from the Bible, so it’s apparent that you have the ability to look appropriate sections of Scripture up. I’m certain that you are intelligent enough to understand the biological purpose of sexual relations and that sodomy, being a simulation of those acts, is utterly impossible to achieve that purpose. It is impossible for a sodomite act to be fecund.

As far as loving one’s neighbor, how is closing one’s eyes a loving act? How is ignoring something that will inevitably result in them roasting in hell forever loving?

There’s more…but I don’t know where you want to go with this, so I’ll just throw it back to you…
I disagree it is not sinful. I myself as a transsexual woman will ask you this, " who would choose this?" Read Ephesians 2:10 Where the Holy Scriptures tell us the way we are is because God had a plan for us beforehand. “You are God’s handwork.”
 
I disagree it is not sinful. I myself as a transsexual woman will ask you this, " who would choose this?" Read Ephesians 2:10 Where the Holy Scriptures tell us the way we are is because God had a plan for us beforehand. “You are God’s handwork.”
We all have our crosses to bear. Some are, perhaps, greater or smaller than others.
 
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