Homosexuality

[Chris7]

First off, any one who says homosexuality is a trait is not a Catholic! Scriptures forbid this evil life-style. It is a matter of choice much the same as when people chose Barabus over Jesus. I am a devout Catholic but I would be remiss if I didn’t express my disgust with the priests who have molested boys. The gay movement purposely stayed clear of the issue but lets face it, a homo is a homo is a homo. It’s not that it would be a lesser offense if priests molested girls, but the issue is homosexuality so we’ll keep to the topic. My parish, or should I say my former parish included gays along with minorities during the intentions. When they included people of color who were created that way with people who have purposely chosen a path of evil I had to say good-bye. Talk about a major leap, if I were a person of color I would be outraged! We Americans are so caught up in a society hell-bent on being politically correct that we have lost sight of the differences between right and wrong, good and evil. And since when did politics become the standard for being correct? No matter how people would like to sugar coat it, homosexuality is immoral, and totally against our Faith.

 

[luke2219]

Chris7:

First off, any one who says homosexuality is a trait is not a Catholic! Scriptures forbid this evil life-style. It is a matter of choice much the same as when people chose Barabus over Jesus.

That’s a very poor analogy. It’s not the same. The disordered attraction was not chosen as if someone came up to me and said, “okay which do you want” and I picked homosexuality. Somehow, it just turned out that I’m attracted to guys. I’ve always wanted to be attracted to girls and if I had a choice in the matter, I would be attracted to girls. What I can choose is to lead a chaste life according the Church’s teaching on human sexuality. I can choose to seek reparative therapy to heal the disordered attraction. I can choose to remain celibate and lead a holy life even if the disordered desire remains.

Chris7:

My parish, or should I say my former parish included gays along with minorities during the intentions. When they included people of color who were created that way with people who have purposely chosen a path of evil I had to say good-bye. Talk about a major leap, if I were a person of color I would be outraged!

Were they praying for the “gays” to able to continue their sinful lifestyle? I don’t doubt that could have been in some way the case. But praying for “gays” certainly isn’t wrong and is even praisworthy. Why not pray for the sinners? If they are sinning then they probably need the prayer, right?

Chris7:

No matter how people would like to sugar coat it, homosexuality is immoral, and totally against our Faith.

That’s right. But from the rest of your statements I think you might want to take another look at the Catechism of the Chatholic Church.

**

CCC 2358

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.**
Pax et bonum

 

[Chris7]

The anaology is right on the money. Back in the day we as a society chose Barabus over Jesus and after all of these years not much has changed, we are still chosing Barabus. I have always said it, when Jesus returns it won’t be to pat us on the back.
For the intentions, we pray for the innocent people displaced by war, for end of oppression, the dicrimination against minorities etc. In short we pray for the victims and not the pepetraitors. Last time I checked being black was not a sin but being gay was. We do pray for the sick, lonely and depressed. Had we have prayed for gays in that context then it would have been appropriate.
Not everyone has stepped up to the plate by recognizing a need for help as you have and for that I commend you. I’ll pray for your full recovery.

 

[luke2219]

Chris7:

The analogy is right on the money. Back in the day we as a society chose Barabus over Jesus and after all of these years not much has changed, we are still choosing Barabus. I have always said it, when Jesus returns it won’t be to pat us on the back.
For the intentions, we pray for the innocent people displaced by war, for end of oppression, the discrimination against minorities etc. In short we pray for the victims and not the perpetrators. Last time I checked being black was not a sin but being gay was. We do pray for the sick, lonely and depressed. Had we have prayed for gays in that context then it would have been appropriate.
Not everyone has stepped up to the plate by recognizing a need for help as you have and for that I commend you. I’ll pray for your full recovery.

The analogy is correct in that we chose Barabus over Jesus and now we choose sin over Jesus. As long as you intend that analogy for everyone and that homosexual acts are just one in a multitude of ways that we as humans continue to sin. From your second post, it seems that we agree there.

As for the prayer intentions, I can see how in the context you described prayers for homosexuals can be disturbing. I think we both agree though that a prayer that homosexuals would follow Jesus’ teachings would be appropriate. Also, we should pray for victims, but it is also praiseworthy to pray for the perpetrator’s conversion and for God to have mercy on them.

Being attracted to people of the same sex is NOT sinful. Living a homosexual lifestyle is gravely sinful. For many homosexuals who try to live a holy and chaste life, the disordered desire remains. As long as they are not acting on that desire, interiorly or exteriorly, they are not committing sin.

 

[LukeD]

javelin:

Rubbish.

Looking at Sacred Scripture alone should be sufficient to lay waste to that claim.

It might be good to point that saying “homosexuality is morally wrong” may be a bit too broad a statement. Homosexual sexual acts are morally evil, not the person. For example, a person who claims to be homosexual (who may have homosexual urges), but who practices prudent chastity of body and mind is not living in sin. This person is no more sinful that the heterosexual single person who is also called to chastity. They are less sinful than the heterosexual person who masturbates. It is when one enters into immorral sexual activity (homosexual, heterosexual, or self-aroused) that they are in sin.

At least that’s how I understand it.

Peace,
javelin

 

[LukeD]

So Javelin, are you saying that masturbating is a sin?

Please get a clue and crawl out of that cave of yours - 99% of all males (clergy and non clergy) would admit to having masturbated at least once in their lives - the other 1% are liars!

Bye,

Luke

 

[luke2219]

LukeD:

So Javelin, are you saying that masturbating is a sin?

Please get a clue and crawl out of that cave of yours - 99% of all males (clergy and non clergy) would admit to having masturbated at least once in their lives - the other 1% are liars!

Yes, masturbation is a sin; a grave sin.

**CCC 2352 **By *masturbation *is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.” To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

**CCC 2396 **Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

And yes, priest are sinners too.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

 

[Writer]

It doesn’t really matter whether it is a genetic trait, or not–although I don’t think it is. A person can be born with a genetic trait for violent behavior, and that doesn’t justify murder. Homosexuality represents a sin against God, the person himself, and the society at large…

 

[javelin]

Chris7:

The anaology is right on the money.

It appears that Luke2219 is perfectly capable of defending himself, but I have to reply to this apparent stereotyping.

NO, that analogy is NOT right on the money–it is misleading in a significant way. Most people with homosexual attractions did not actively choose that lifestyle. With Jesus and Barnabus, the choice was clear; with homosexual attraction, it is not that simple and straightforward.

A better analogy would be comparing homosexuality to an illness that needs treatment and healing. The sad reality is that many with this sexual disorder only reinforce it by giving in to their passions. What they need is to be shown Christ’s true love from the His Body (that’s us, by the way) so they will stop seeking it in heathen ways that are despicable to God.

Chris7:

For the intentions, we pray for the innocent people displaced by war, for end of oppression, the dicrimination against minorities etc. In short we pray for the victims and not the pepetraitors. Last time I checked being black was not a sin but being gay was.

No, being gay is not a sin. As I stated earlier, and several have repeated, it is acting on homosexual attractions that is sinful. Even Jesus himself was tempted to sin!! They have a much heavier cross to bear than many of us ever will, and for those who do not just give in to their lust, their reward will be great in heaven.

We pray for all sinners, as well we should, and that includes those who engage in homosexual acts. But their sins are no more grave than heterosexuals who use artificial birth control or engage in any sexual activity outside of marriage. We also pray for the oppressed, as well we should, and that includes homosexuals. Social oppresion forces many only deeper into their addictions, and creates barriers to reaching them in true love. Just so no one misunderstands what I’m saying, fighting oppression does not equate to legal or moral permissiveness of the immoral activity. How wonderful it would be if all moral laws were supported by civil laws! Sinners must always be made aware of the sin in their lives, but it must be done in love. Christ went out of the city to heal the lepers – do we do the same with the sick in our world who have been socially marginalized?

Chris7:

Not everyone has stepped up to the plate by recognizing a need for help as you have and for that I commend you. I’ll pray for your full recovery.

I commend you, too, Luke2219. May God lift this cross from you, that you might bear witness to the power of His healing love to all those who do not hear His voice.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

LukeD:

So Javelin, are you saying that masturbating is a sin?

Please get a clue and crawl out of that cave of yours - 99% of all males (clergy and non clergy) would admit to having masturbated at least once in their lives - the other 1% are liars!

Bye,

Luke

“Everyone’s doing it, so it must be OK!!” cries the lemming.

Whatever.

I seem to have more of a clue than you on this issue. You should crawl out of your cave (I had to refrain from a very un-Christlike comment here… so difficult sometimes…).

Luke2219’s post sufficiently supported what I said. Masturbation is a grave sin. Period.

Peace,
javelin

 

[luke2219]

Javelin and Chris7, thank you so much for you affirmation and prayers. I need them.

Most people with homosexual attractions did not actively choose that lifestyle.

I think what you mean here is that the disordered desire what not chosen and that is true. Living the lifestyle is an active choice that is gravely sinful.

A better analogy would be comparing homosexuality to an illness that needs treatment and healing. The sad reality is that many with this sexual disorder only reinforce it by giving in to their passions. What they need is to be shown Christ’s true love from the His Body (that’s us, by the way) so they will stop seeking it in heathen ways that are despicable to God.

That’s a good analogy. A better one is comparing homosexuality to concupiscence and our fallen human nature that makes sin feel natural. Then everyone is put on the same playing field. We all reinforce sin by giving into it. We all need to be shown Christ’s true love and stop seeking it in our heathen ways.

They have a much heavier cross to bear than many of us ever will, and for those who do not just give in to their lust, their reward will be great in heaven.

If my cross is heavier than yours it’s only because God has given me more grace to bear it. If I have more weight to bear on my journey than you, the extra weight is not my cross, but all the disordered attachments I’m trying carry along with me. The more I get out of the way and let God work, the easier the journey gets. The more “souvenirs” of my former life I leave behind, the lighter my burden gets. When it comes to the weight of our cross or the difficulty in our journey, either by extra grace or whatever, God equalizes it for everyone. We’re all wounded and broken and I have no greater or lesser opportunity for healing than the next guy.

We pray for all sinners, as well we should, and that includes those who engage in homosexual acts. But their sins are no graver than heterosexuals who use artificial birth control or engage in any sexual activity outside of marriage.

Right on!

We also pray for the oppressed, as well we should, and that includes homosexuals. Social oppression forces many only deeper into their addictions, and creates barriers to reaching them in true love. Just so no one misunderstands what I’m saying, fighting oppression does not equate to legal or moral permissiveness of the immoral activity.

Right on again! It’s hard to convince homosexuals that you love them when you treat them with hostility.

Christ went out of the city to heal the lepers – do we do the same with the sick in our world who have been socially marginalized?

Amen! That is exactly why groups like Courage (www.couragerc.net) are so needed in the Church today. That’s also why groups like Dignity are a wonderful idea gone horribly wrong.

Pax et bonum

 

[Marcellinus]

ramman50076:

I am currently debating a “Catholic” who insists that Homosexuality is a Trait in humans Created by GOD.That it is no longer considered a Mortal Sin in those who were “created” that way , due to the fact that their conscience tells them that their feelings are not wrong in the eyes of GOD due to their being made to feel the ways they feel. In effect , their conscience is clear to accept the feelings they have. That those feelings , being bred into them by the creator - eliminates their culpability as a result.

Anyone care to respond to this?

First of all, homosexual temptations are not a “trait”. Traits are things like dyslexia or having good teeth; they are not inclinations to do a certain action, sexual or otherwize.

Secondly, God does not create temptations; God only allows us to be tempted, the tempting is left entirely to demons, other people, or even ourselves.

Thirdly, it seems that the homosexual in question thinks that because one feels he should do a certain action that that makes it morally correct to follow that action. But this is absurd, murderers and rapists feel like they should murder or rape but does that make their crime morally justified? This is not to say that homosexuality is as wrong as murder or rape, but does anything other than our feelings tell us to do immoral actions? Think about it.

Lastly, homosexuality is specifically wrong because only the male and female bodies compliment each other sexually; this is backed by scientific research as well as anatomy, the sexual act of homosexuality (sodomy) severely harms the immune system.

 

[Marcellinus]

LukeD:

So Javelin, are you saying that masturbating is a sin?

Please get a clue and crawl out of that cave of yours - 99% of all males (clergy and non clergy) would admit to having masturbated at least once in their lives - the other 1% are liars!

Bye,

Luke

“He who accuses all of mankind convicts only one.”
– Edmund Burke

 

[Monica2]

Just because one has homosexual tendencies does not mean that one must act upon them.

 

[Toni]

javelin:

We pray for all sinners, as well we should, and that includes those who engage in homosexual acts. But their sins are no more grave than heterosexuals who use artificial birth control or engage in any sexual activity outside of marriage. We also pray for the oppressed, as well we should, and that includes homosexuals.

Peace,
javelin

Please read a little more about sodom and gommorah before comparing birth control and homosexuality. The city was and that is a whole city destroyed over the sin of sodomy.
That is a little drastic to make such a comparison. Yes a sin is a sin but some are much worse than others. There are soo many bible quotes against this and as I state a city was destroyed over it. How many cities were destroyed over birthcontrol?
I think that was God’s way of showing us how very grave the sin is. I know that birthcontrol etc are sins but I do believe there is different accountability for different sins. But homosexuality is very clear in many of our teachings. Luke I will be praying for you and commend you for searching for truth and prayers.

Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible

Sodomy
A sin against nature consisting of copulation between persons of the same sex or between persons of opposite sex, but in an unnatural manner. It is one of the sins which cry to heaven for vengeance. The name comes from the city of Sodom, where the sin was common (Gen. 19:4-9).

Romans
*. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. **
**24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. **
**28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. **

 

[javelin]

Toni:

Please read a little more about sodom and gommorah before comparing birth control and homosexuality. The city was and that is a whole city destroyed over the sin of sodomy.
That is a little drastic to make such a comparison.

I know the story of Sodom and Gommorrah, and I stand by the analogy.

Both homosexual sexual acts and the use of artificial birth control are a disordered, unnatural use of our sexuality. The CCC, quoting Humanae Vitae, says this about artificial contraception:

every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil

To do something “intrinsically evil” is gravely immoral. I’m not saying using ABC and engaging in homosexual sex are exact moral equivalents, but they are both gravely sinful, and so the analogy is warranted. In some cases, those who use ABC are also unknowingly aborting children, which I would say is worse than homosexual acts. It can go both ways.

Not wanting to distract this thread form its purpose, I’ll leave it at that.

Peace,
javelin