Homosexuals and celibacy

[Hadrianus]

Deo Volente,

            I think you are reading a little too much into the CCC statement. In the first place the traditional Catholic teaching upon nature and grace takes priority to what is merely an explanation. I can say as a Roman Catholic that not all opinions which appear in church documents possess the same weight. In any doctrinal matter it is the specific object of the teaching which is Catholic doctrine; explanations around it can be time conditioned and even based upon mistakes. 

           All that said, one would have to look at the Latin text of the CCC before making any comment on a matter so serious as that which concerns Nature and Grace as these are after all dogmatic teachings even though very few Catholics are aware of them.

           The long history of Catholic thought has hardly considered what a homosexual orientation is. It's a modern term. The concept of sexuality is also modern, and is used in different ways by differrent people.  It would be interesting to see what the Latin version makes of this.

Rather than repeat myself, II thought I just recopy! Personally I think that the CCC 2332 needs to be read with caution. The catechism contains a number of opinons which need elaboration and better definitions of language. Sexuality is not a word which would have much meaning in Latin apart from what we in English now call gender. In any case, human sexuality in the sense of physical desire is disordered in all human beings and it is healed by grace which enables the will to control the passions. This does not mean that temptation disappears, but it can be overcome. What we call sexual orientation is of no moral significance in itself.

 

[Hadrianus]

Note to Kolbe,
Having just checked the catechism in its Latin text I'd say that the context of paragraph 2332 is that of the creation of male and female and 'sexualitas' in this context means gender, not sexuality in the generally current English sense.

 

[Kolbe300]

The catechism contains a number of opinons which need elaboration and better definitions of language. Sexuality is not a word which would have much meaning in Latin apart from what we in English now call gender.

Thanks Hadrianus. Very good point. I could very well be misunderstanding what the catechism is trying to say.

In any case, human sexuality in the sense of physical desire is disordered in all human beings and it is healed by grace which enables the will to control the passions. This does not mean that temptation disappears, but it can be overcome.

I agree.

What we call sexual orientation is of no moral significance in itself.

Again, I agree (and though I could be wrong, I think many on here wouldn’t agree). It makes me wonder, does the *homosexual person *(a catechism term) have a beautiful sexuality when we speak outside the sense of physical desire?

That’s really what I’m trying to get at. Homosexual persons are consistently left with this idea that their entire sexuality is ugly. The point I’ve been trying (and failing) to make is that sexuality goes so much deeper than simple attraction. If my whole sexuality, even the parts that have nothing to do with sex, is objectively disordered, where does that leave me?

Thankfully, I don’t view my sexuality as ugly (at all). That’s why I will never spend one more second praying for God to please “make me straight.” I spent so many years trapped in that prayer. Instead, I ask God to make me, ALL of me, exactly as he wishes it to be. If the result of that prayer is a homosexual orientation, then I will embrace that. I will find meaning in it, and I will strive to express my sexuality in ways that are pleasing to God. In other words, I will express my desire to love in service and not in a bedroom.

If that doesn’t make sense, I give up. There’s only so many comments like “in your fantasies” I can take before I need another long break from CAF.

Peace!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Note to Kolbe,

       Having just checked the catechism in its Latin text I'd say that the context of paragraph 2332 is that of the creation of male and female and 'sexualitas' in this context means gender, not sexuality in the generally current English sense.

Very helpful, H.!

Thanks Hadrianus. Very good point. I could very well be misunderstanding what the catechism is trying to say.

I agree.

Again, I agree (and though I could be wrong, I think many on here wouldn’t agree). It makes me wonder, does the *homosexual person *(a catechism term) have a beautiful sexuality when we speak outside the sense of physical desire?

That’s really what I’m trying to get at. Homosexual persons are consistently left with this idea that their entire sexuality is ugly. The point I’ve been trying (and failing) to make is that sexuality goes so much deeper than simple attraction. If my whole sexuality, even the parts that have nothing to do with sex, is objectively disordered, where does that leave me?

Thankfully, I don’t view my sexuality as ugly (at all). That’s why I will never spend one more second praying for God to please “make me straight.” I spent so many years trapped in that prayer. Instead, I ask God to make me, ALL of me, exactly as he wishes it to be. If the result of that prayer is a homosexual orientation, then I will embrace that. I will find meaning in it, and I will strive to express my sexuality in ways that are pleasing to God. In other words, I will express my desire to love in service and not in a bedroom.

If that doesn’t make sense, I give up. There’s only so many comments like “in your fantasies” I can take before I need another long break from CAF.

Peace!

Kolbe,

I’m beginning to understand what you are saying. You have elevated your struggle to something higher. It’s beautiful. This is why I love the story of Leonardo da Vinci.

The Religious Affiliation of Artist, Inventor, Scientist
Leonardo da Vinci

God bless you!
,

 

[Philology]

Thanks Hadrianus. Very good point. I could very well be misunderstanding what the catechism is trying to say.

I agree.

Again, I agree (and though I could be wrong, I think many on here wouldn’t agree). It makes me wonder, does the *homosexual person *(a catechism term) have a beautiful sexuality when we speak outside the sense of physical desire?

That’s really what I’m trying to get at. Homosexual persons are consistently left with this idea that their entire sexuality is ugly. The point I’ve been trying (and failing) to make is that sexuality goes so much deeper than simple attraction. If my whole sexuality, even the parts that have nothing to do with sex, is objectively disordered, where does that leave me?

Thankfully, I don’t view my sexuality as ugly (at all). That’s why I will never spend one more second praying for God to please “make me straight.” I spent so many years trapped in that prayer. Instead, I ask God to make me, ALL of me, exactly as he wishes it to be. If the result of that prayer is a homosexual orientation, then I will embrace that. I will find meaning in it, and I will strive to express my sexuality in ways that are pleasing to God. In other words, I will express my desire to love in service and not in a bedroom.

If that doesn’t make sense, I give up. There’s only so many comments like “in your fantasies” I can take before I need another long break from CAF.

Peace!

Really great comment Kolbe, and I must say, your view of the homosexual orientation has allowed me to (so far) experience sexuality in the way God intended me to.

I still struggle with desires every day, but I suppose that’s very natural for teenage boys; I’m more than sure that the same could be said about a straight boy my age. It’s very liberating, whenever the attraction bears down upon me, to just “Go with the flow” and let my own sexuality positively effect those around me.

I wouldn’t blame you for taking a break from CAF. I have been completely frustrated on more than one account by some of the intolerance I have come across, while commenting on “Moral Theology” questions that regard homosexuality.

Good to see ya Kolbe.

 

[Hadrianus]

Really great comment Kolbe, and I must say, your view of the homosexual orientation has allowed me to (so far) experience sexuality in the way God intended me to.

I still struggle with desires every day, but I suppose that’s very natural for teenage boys; I’m more than sure that the same could be said about a straight boy my age. It’s very liberating, whenever the attraction bears down upon me, to just “Go with the flow” and let my own sexuality positively effect those around me.

I wouldn’t blame you for taking a break from CAF. I have been completely frustrated on more than one account by some of the intolerance I have come across, while commenting on “Moral Theology” questions that regard homosexuality.

Good to see ya Kolbe.

Kolbe and Philology,

Thanks for both your edifying posts. God has created all of us for a purpose and if we do His will then we become the persons God wants us to be. Only sin is ugly to God, persons are not

Note to Philology: I think this may be the first appearance of Welsh on CAF.!

 

[Kolbe300]

You have made several excellent posts here. Thanks.

Thank you Larkin, I appreciate it!

I’m beginning to understand what you are saying. You have elevated your struggle to something higher. It’s beautiful. This is why I love the story of Leonardo da Vinci.
God bless you!
,

Thank you InSearchofGrace (I love that name, btw)! I really appreciate that comment. It’s a great feeling to know that someone understands what I’m trying to say!

Good to see ya Kolbe.

It’s great to see you as well Philogy! I hope things are going well for you!

Thanks for both your edifying posts. God has created all of us for a purpose and if we do His will then we become the persons God wants us to be. Only sin is ugly to God, persons are not

Beautifully said, Hadrianus. Thanks so much for your comments about Catechism language. I have got to always keep that in mind.

Note to Philology: I think this may be the first appearance of Welsh on CAF.!

I second that! (I also had no idea that was Welsh). Philogy, you’re a bright kid!

Peace all!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Of course one’s desire for God surpasses sex. I suppose I made the mistake of assuming that was obvious. Again, at the very core of our beings (including our sexuality), is the desire for love. And God is love. God is at the center of it all, even our sexualities. As the Catechism says (2332), “Sexuality affects ALL aspects of the human person in unity of his body and soul.” ALL aspects, including our desire for God. Because our desire for God surpasses sex doesn’t mean God is or should be absent from our sexuality.

Why does it always seem to come to this? Because one is honest about their sexual orientation they have somehow reduced their entire identity to a sexuality? That leap is so giant it’s mind boggling. My sexuality is a vital part of who I am. If it is broken, especially objectively so, and if it affects all aspects of my person, then I am, in essence, broken. Of course I am still a “full self”. My sexuality isn’t missing, it’s broken. If my leg is broken, does my entire body not feel the effect?

I couldn’t agree with you more. Now what about the aspects of my sexuality that can’t be reduced to simple attraction? Certainly you would agree that your sexuality encompasses much, much more than physical attraction. So does mine.

True. It also doesn’t make ones sexuality, something that affects every aspect of their being, less disordered. Your post made it seem as if you think I believe not acting on attraction makes a person less whole or lessens their personhood. I don’t believe that.

Hmm…we’ve been reduced to attractions again. Elizabeth502, are physical attractions not an integral part of one’s sexuality as a whole?

Do you see what you just did there? You compared “heterosexuals” with “those with homosexual attractions.” See the difference? Why the reduction to attraction when speaking of the homosexual?

I’ll try my best not to be completely insulted by that. Maybe you should re-read what I posted. I said that I believe my sexuality is ordered toward a different kind of love, one that has nothing do with sex. I’m capable of that because I can see sexuality as far more than physical attraction. And yes, that has everything to do with Jesus.

Wow! You are much better than I am at articulating what SSA is about and how if feels and how people who aren’t SSA have absolutely NO CLUE what’s it’s like. Good job!

 

[needingadvice]

So I have spent some time reading these posts and I just want to clear some things up.

First off, I am gay and I am Catholic. I realized I had attractions to men at the age of twelve (I am now 18) and I used to pray to God every single night for years to “change” me. Luckily, within the past year or so, God has helped me realize that there is nothing I need to change. He created me this way, I don’t care what anyone else believes on here, but God, yes the same God you believe in, created me this way.

There are no therapies that “work” to help gay people become straight because there is no need for such therapies. People who claim that they have changed are extremely messed up in their brains and sadly are living a lie, even if they aren’t aware of it.

In regards to the celibacy issue - gays technically aren’t even having “sex” as it is defined by the Church - so how could the possibly be celibate if they were having anal “sex?”

What saddens me the most about reading these posts is that there is a kid out there, if not hundreds or thousands of kids out there, who read these posts and hate who they are because of them. They are twelve, thirteen and even eighteen years old and literally think about ending their lives on a daily basis. Sadly, many of them do kill themselves because of the ignorance echoed on message boards like these. Instead of preaching hate towards gays (and I know many of you claim that you aren’t preaching hate, but I’m sorry, I’m gay and I feel hated), you should all realize that we believe in the same God that loves everyone no matter what. Before you cast your judgment upon those who do not even need to be judged, take a moment and examine your life. Do your actual sins outweigh the “sins” that gay people who are truly in love are “committing?” So please, before another kid decides to hang himself with his belt in his closet, stop preaching such intolerable hate on boards like these and in real life.

 

[needingadvice]

and to Kolbe:

I am saddened that you won’t ever be able to experience love with another man. God wants you to, if not, you wouldn’t be who you are right now. Instead of denying your attraction to men, sexual and emotional, why not embrace it and love another man just as straight people love one another. I have never felt so loved by anyone on this planet as much as I have felt loved by my current partner.

 

[larkin31]

So I have spent some time reading these posts and I just want to clear some things up.

First off, I am gay and I am Catholic. I realized I had attractions to men at the age of twelve (I am now 18) and I used to pray to God every single night for years to “change” me. Luckily, within the past year or so, God has helped me realize that there is nothing I need to change. He created me this way, I don’t care what anyone else believes on here, but God, yes the same God you believe in, created me this way.

There are no therapies that “work” to help gay people become straight because there is no need for such therapies. People who claim that they have changed are extremely messed up in their brains and sadly are living a lie, even if they aren’t aware of it.

In regards to the celibacy issue - gays technically aren’t even having “sex” as it is defined by the Church - so how could the possibly be celibate if they were having anal “sex?”

What saddens me the most about reading these posts is that there is a kid out there, if not hundreds or thousands of kids out there, who read these posts and hate who they are because of them. They are twelve, thirteen and even eighteen years old and literally think about ending their lives on a daily basis. Sadly, many of them do kill themselves because of the ignorance echoed on message boards like these. Instead of preaching hate towards gays (and I know many of you claim that you aren’t preaching hate, but I’m sorry, I’m gay and I feel hated), you should all realize that we believe in the same God that loves everyone no matter what. Before you cast your judgment upon those who do not even need to be judged, take a moment and examine your life. Do your actual sins outweigh the “sins” that gay people who are truly in love are “committing?” So please, before another kid decides to hang himself with his belt in his closet, stop preaching such intolerable hate on boards like these and in real life.

I teach high school. I teach some gay students. A few of them have been suicidal for the reasons you mention. One succeeded. I am here, in part, to combat the context that creates the environment that harms these young people so terribly. There are good Catholic posters here, however, in addition to those who have there own issues around sexuality that compels them to cast aspersions so freely and generally.

Thank you for your testimony.

 

[GraceDK]

I admit that I haven’t rad that part of the Catechism before. But even after reading it, my question still remains. Why the call to celibacy and not the call to heterosexuality?

Until recent history same sex attraction was listed in the psychiatry and psychology manuals as a disorder.

And although that has been taken out for reasons of political correctness and a misunderstood attempt to be tolerant and kind, it remains so.

Homosexuality is really a gender identity deficit. The person has, you can say, suffered a trauma in early childhood and has not adequately identified with his own gender.
This is an emotioal psychological disturbance - symptoms are often affectional immaturity, craving for masculinity but having a feeling of not belonging to ones own gender group, crave to fulfill the sensed lack of masculinity through erotic relationships with other men, which however because of the above said, are not able to fulfill that need.

There is treatment available, and quite a few really become succesfull hetero sexual people and marry and have children…
but today therapists who offer therapy to homosexuals are stigmatized by their colleagues etc… and many psychological schools dont even deal with the problem anymore.

So, you cant just say to a homosexual: “be a heterosexual”, like you cant tell anyone else with an illness or disorder to be suddenly different.

 

[GraceDK]

needingadvice; So I have spent some time reading these posts and I just want to clear some things up.

First off, I am gay and I am Catholic. I realized I had attractions to men at the age of twelve (I am now 18) and I used to pray to God every single night for years to “change” me. Luckily, within the past year or so, God has helped me realize that there is nothing I need to change.

How did He do that?

He created me this way, I don’t care what anyone else believes on here, but God, yes the same God you believe in, created me this way.

What do you think when you read the account in genesis about how man and woman was created?

There are no therapies that “work” to help gay people become straight because there is no need for such therapies.

And yet many gay people come to these therapists because they are unhappy in their lives and feel like they are chasing shadows while putting their own mental and physical health at risk.

**People who claim that they have changed are extremely messed up in their brains and sadly are living a lie, even if they aren’t aware of it. **

So if a person says he became straight, you say he is crazy. This fits with the testimonies I have read from those who did in fact go the way of therapy… they said they were being scorned by other gay people for their attempt to break free of a life style which they felt was dangerous and full of (sexual) compulsion.

In regards to the celibacy issue - gays technically aren’t even having “sex” as it is defined by the Church - so how could the possibly be celibate if they were having anal "sex?"

If a person fills his mouth with stone and insist on eating them and says its normal and good, do you agree with him that its good for him? The same with anal sex. The way in which your body is formed, will inself tell you that its not meant for that kind of activity. Its a exit-only place, and you endanger your health by these practices…
The deseases that flourish in gay communities are deadly and many of them are totally unknown to the heterosexual part of the population.

**What saddens me the most about reading these posts is that there is a kid out there, if not hundreds or thousands of kids out there, who read these posts and hate who they are because of them. They are twelve, thirteen and even eighteen years old and literally think about ending their lives on a daily basis. **

This is what you misunderstand… In America you can say that religious people dominate the public discussions and gays are “made to feel weird”… But I have read studies from the most liberal countries in the world. Heck I am in one… Eg. in Holland… being gay is totally acceptable there, just like smoking hashish, fornicating and all that, but there the gay population report the same inherent emotional woundedness and have much higher rates of high risk sexual behaviour, substance abuse, and suicide than other population groups, just like everywhere else…
Lets now look at the Jews… they have been persecuted for centuries and are many times told they are scum, but they dont blame the whole world for their suicide rate, which is the same as everywhere else.

**Sadly, many of them do kill themselves because of the ignorance echoed on message boards like these. Instead of preaching hate towards gays (and I know many of you claim that you aren’t preaching hate, but I’m sorry, I’m gay and I feel hated), **

Maybe you are still not accepting yourself and that’s why you feel hated, because its easier to feel the victim than to acknowlege that something is wrong ?
But Im telling you, your homosexual feelings ARE NOT YOUR FAULT. And we dont hate you… man, we have our hands full with our own problems and sicknesses, all of us.

you should all realize that we believe in the same God that loves everyone no matter what.

Yes, God loves us all unconditonally and will always do so. And we love you as our brother. If you believe that Jesus is the Lord and Messiah and He died for your sins and you let the Revelation of God judge you, instead of you judging It, then you are a Christian brother.
Your feelings to not define who you are. But your actions will slowly change your character and blind you, if you do not care to live according to God’s mind.

Peace be with you.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

needingadvice; So I have spent some time reading these posts and I just want to clear some things up.

First off, I am gay and I am Catholic. I realized I had attractions to men at the age of twelve (I am now 18) and I used to pray to God every single night for years to “change” me. Luckily, within the past year or so, God has helped me realize that there is nothing I need to change.

How did He do that?

He created me this way, I don’t care what anyone else believes on here, but God, yes the same God you believe in, created me this way.

What do you think when you read the account in genesis about how man and woman was created?

There are no therapies that “work” to help gay people become straight because there is no need for such therapies.

And yet many gay people come to these therapists because they are unhappy in their lives and feel like they are chasing shadows while putting their own mental and physical health at risk.

**People who claim that they have changed are extremely messed up in their brains and sadly are living a lie, even if they aren’t aware of it. **

So if a person says he became straight, you say he is crazy. This fits with the testimonies I have read from those who did in fact go the way of therapy… they said they were being scorned by other gay people for their attempt to break free of a life style which they felt was dangerous and full of (sexual) compulsion.

In regards to the celibacy issue - gays technically aren’t even having “sex” as it is defined by the Church - so how could the possibly be celibate if they were having anal "sex?"

If a person fills his mouth with stone and insist on eating them and says its normal and good, do you agree with him that its good for him? The same with anal sex. The way in which your body is formed, will inself tell you that its not meant for that kind of activity. Its a exit-only place, and you endanger your health by these practices…
The deseases that flourish in gay communities are deadly and many of them are totally unknown to the heterosexual part of the population.

**What saddens me the most about reading these posts is that there is a kid out there, if not hundreds or thousands of kids out there, who read these posts and hate who they are because of them. They are twelve, thirteen and even eighteen years old and literally think about ending their lives on a daily basis. **

This is what you misunderstand… In America you can say that religious people dominate the public discussions and gays are “made to feel weird”… But I have read studies from the most liberal countries in the world. Heck I am in one… Eg. in Holland… being gay is totally acceptable there, just like smoking hashish, fornicating and all that, but there the gay population report the same inherent emotional woundedness and have much higher rates of high risk sexual behaviour, substance abuse, and suicide than other population groups, just like everywhere else…
Lets now look at the Jews… they have been persecuted for centuries and are many times told they are scum, but they dont blame the whole world for their suicide rate, which is the same as everywhere else.

**Sadly, many of them do kill themselves because of the ignorance echoed on message boards like these. Instead of preaching hate towards gays (and I know many of you claim that you aren’t preaching hate, but I’m sorry, I’m gay and I feel hated), **

Maybe you are still not accepting yourself and that’s why you feel hated, because its easier to feel the victim than to acknowlege that something is wrong ?
But Im telling you, your homosexual feelings ARE NOT YOUR FAULT. And we dont hate you… man, we have our hands full with our own problems and sicknesses, all of us.

you should all realize that we believe in the same God that loves everyone no matter what.

Yes, God loves us all unconditonally and will always do so. And we love you as our brother. If you believe that Jesus is the Lord and Messiah and He died for your sins and you let the Revelation of God judge you, instead of you judging It, then you are a Christian brother.
Your feelings to not define who you are. But your actions will slowly change your character and blind you, if you do not care to live according to God’s mind.

Peace be with you.

Greetings from California, Grace! Your reply to needingadvice is excellent. We have so many youth feeling lost and needing guidance. I also like your linked video. Good song, “There’s No Sweeter Name” Now I know about a certain Kari Jobe from Texas. How weird to find out through you in Holland.

God bless,
,

 

[needingadvice]

needingadvice; So I have spent some time reading these posts and I just want to clear some things up.

“How did He do that?”

God works in mysterious ways and I know that he has spoken to me through my family and friends and I know that he made me this way.

He created me this way, I don’t care what anyone else believes on here, but God, yes the same God you believe in, created me this way.

What do you think when you read the account in genesis about how man and woman was created?

I don’t really believe in Genesis considering the fact that i believe strictly in evolution, with some sort of intervention from God. To me, and to anyone with common sense really, there was no Adam and Eve and we didn’t walk along side the dinosaurs thousands of years ago. Seriously, the things that people believe that come from The Bible is absolutely dumbfounding. Most, if not all of the Old Testament, isn’t supposed to be taken literally - so why do many Christians take it that way? No pun intended, God only knows.

“Maybe you are still not accepting yourself and that’s why you feel hated, because its easier to feel the victim than to acknowlege that something is wrong ?
But Im telling you, your homosexual feelings ARE NOT YOUR FAULT. And we dont hate you… man, we have our hands full with our own problems and sicknesses, all of us.”

First of all, I don’t feel the “victim” as you put it and second of all, I am extremely accepting of myself and know exactly who I am. Quite frankly, being gay has made me a much stronger and more mature individual than my straight counterparts. And nothing is wrong, so there is nothing for me to “acknowledge.”

 

[InSearchofGrace]

First of all, I don’t feel the “victim” as you put it and second of all, I am extremely accepting of myself and know exactly who I am. Quite frankly, being gay has made me a much stronger and more mature individual than my straight counterparts. And nothing is wrong, so there is nothing for me to “acknowledge.”

Excuse me for responding before Grace, who will likely respond if she makes it in front of the computer before she turns in (I think it’s nearly 9 pm in Holland).

Are you trying to convince us or yourself with what you said? Your ‘handle’ is suggestive of a wish for some sort of confirmation or affirmation of how you are living your young life right now, but are not sure.
,

 

[larkin31]

Until recent history same sex attraction was listed in the psychiatry and psychology manuals as a disorder.

And although that has been taken out for reasons of political correctness and a misunderstood attempt to be tolerant and kind, it remains so.

Homosexuality is really a gender identity deficit. The person has, you can say, suffered a trauma in early childhood and has not adequately identified with his own gender.
This is an emotioal psychological disturbance - symptoms are often affectional immaturity, craving for masculinity but having a feeling of not belonging to ones own gender group, crave to fulfill the sensed lack of masculinity through erotic relationships with other men, which however because of the above said, are not able to fulfill that need…

Lesbians want relationships with other men???

 

[GraceDK]

Greetings from California, Grace! Your reply to needingadvice is excellent. We have so many youth feeling lost and needing guidance. I also like your linked video. Good song, “There’s No Sweeter Name” Now I know about a certain Kari Jobe from Texas. How weird to find out through you in Holland.

God bless,
,

Dear InSearchofGrace.

Thank you for your kind words.
Its funny. I started my studies on homosexuality with a huge bias. I had all the conceptions that my European culture had given me, namely that homosexual and heteosexual love was quite the same, that homosexual persons were born that way and no change was possible, and that it was uncharitable to talk about therapy or non-genetic causes of ssa.
Through studying about child/development psychology (attachment psychology and family structures) and reading dozens of studies on the quality of homosexual relationships and its statistically proven consequences, plus testimonies from former homosexuals, I changed my view totally and realised that there has been a thoroughly compassionate and scientific scholarly and therapeutic work in this field continuously, albeit under pressure, while the media has not allowed it to become known.

I’m not from Holland… I am from Scandinavia which is at least as liberal as Holland. Here homosexual relationships can be blessed in the traditional Lutheran church. Pastors who disagree with that based on Scripture, are sent out to the countryside-parishes and are looked down on by the majority of people, for being such a nuissance.
In Holland there are not only blessings, but actual marriage of homosexuals in the Dutch Reformed churches.
Even though homosexuality is socially acceptable in North Europe, practicing homosexuals continue to stand out in statistics: much more likely to experience bipolar disorder, depression, panic and anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, suicide and alcohol and drug dependence.

Besides from that they stand out in statistics significantly when it comes to reckless sexual behaviour, shortened life span (much due to Hiv/AIDS, and partner-infidelity: Studies showed that in 66 percent of “monogamous” relationships between gay men,there was sexual infidelity within the first year, that number raising to 90 percent if the relationship lasted more than five years. Most of these men make distinction between mental fidelity and physical fidelity to their primary partner and accept promiscuity because they have a compulsive relationship to sex.
The number of sex partners within this group is also extreme compared to other groups in Western societies and the same goes for HIV-numbers. Homosexuals make up onky 2-3 percent of the population but make out 54-65 percent of all new HIV-cases. So a lot of things point to the fact that there is something not-healthy about the lifestyle and that there are underlying psychological issues which need to be addressed.
Admitting to this is the first thing to do if one really loves homosexual persons, which the Church does, and which everyone of us is called to do.

I accept any homosexual person, and acceptance is a great part of healing from anything related to low-selfesteem (due to failed identificatification with one’s own gender and normal differentiation from the opposite gender) but with the knowlege I have, I am thankful to be able to give it to anyone when they are ready to hear it.

Peace to you
And by the way… thanks for looking at the video I posted

 

[GraceDK]

**needingadvice;
"God works in mysterious ways and I know that he has spoken to me through my family and friends and I know that he made me this way.
He created me this way, I don’t care what anyone else believes on here, but God, yes the same God you believe in, created me this way. **

Your friends and family spoke prophetically to you, or they tried to comfort you with their all-too human love and said something to make you feel better?
I believe that God created you with infinite love and wants to be with you in eternity. But as you can see from my above post, which I hope you also read, although I understand that its difficult for you to do that, I believe that the gay lifestyle is not in accordance with our nature.
I believe even your own body is the biggest sign to you that it cannot do what it’s human sexuality is directed at, namely sexual union (face to face) and genital union where it fits, and where the sacred and life giving capacity of your semen is not given into the impure and infective anus but into the place where it can co-create new life.
I used the analogy of eating stone the other day, to compare with anal sex. Anyone who is estranged from their nature (eg. people who believe they will be better off if you cut off their legs) we say that they have an disorder and need compassion and healing from that. If science tells such a person that, if it makes him feel better momentarily we will amputate his legs, then that science has sold its soul to a inhuman and passing ideology.

I don’t really believe in Genesis considering the fact that i believe strictly in evolution, with some sort of intervention from God. To me, and to anyone with common sense really, there was no Adam and Eve and we didn’t walk along side the dinosaurs thousands of years ago. Seriously, the things that people believe that come from The Bible is absolutely dumbfounding. Most, if not all of the Old Testament, isn’t supposed to be taken literally - so why do many Christians take it that way? No pun intended, God only knows.

I respect that. Its a matter of faith. I also only now noticed that you call yourself a former Protestant. I suppose that you also don’t believe in Jesus and His words about human love and sexuality, and how He points to “the Beginning” as to a sort of edenic ideal for human conjugal life. If you do not believe in the Bible and the biblical code of conduct (New Testament is also clear about homosexual acts in Romans 1 eg.) we need not talk more about Christianity. And that’s good to know so that we dont discuss on faith-basis but only on the basis of secular knowlege. Although I do wonder why you wish to debate with Catholics if we, as you say, make people like you suicidal?

**First of all, I don’t feel the “victim” as you put it and second of all, I am extremely accepting of myself and know exactly who I am. Quite frankly, being gay has made me a much stronger and more mature individual than my straight counterparts. And nothing is wrong, so there is nothing for me to “acknowledge.” **

You accept your self fully and accept who you are totally… then you have come a long way further than most people. I suppose if I say you are 100 percent conforming to psychological theory on gay defence mechanisms based precisely on gender identity deficit, you will shake your head at me.
The narcissism and inferiority feelings that are part of the disorder make such statements -particularly infront of your self - necessary…
Especially your remark about your straight counterparts is precise. In every testimony I have read of men who used to live the gay life style, they admitted that they felt anger and insecurity around straight men back then, and tended to look down on them but also idealize them at the same time.

But for all this, its really is of little importance if you are not interested or not ready to hear different perspectives. I have no wish to disturb you. Just know that there are great therapeutic possibilities if one day you wake up and say to your self that the homosexual relationships don’t really fill the need for trust and belonging which maybe you have felt since your childhood.

Peace to you.

 

[Heliotropium]

It’s not about whom you love but how you express your love. If you truly love someone you care about their soul. If your actions are contrary to the commandments of God then for the benefit of the other person’s soul and their eternal welfare (as well as your own) you must not act upon them.

This is a test of our love for God (The 1st commandment), and it is a cross that we must carry for Christ. This goes for every person regardless of their sexuality so contrary to popular belief heterosexuals are not exempt from this call to celibacy.