Homosexuals and celibacy

[chrysostim83]

About the JONAH statement, I would like to point out two things. First, the American College of Pediatricians was rebuked by Francis Collins for distorting his research on the human genome. And second, the report the JONAH statement relies on, namely, NARTH’s “What Research Shows,” has numerous problems with it, including but not limited to the use of studies on aversive therapy to support the claim that sexual orientation can be “changed.” If you don’t believe me, just google it.

On reparative therapy in general, it appears that the theory behind it is pretty much false (see, for example, this site by a conservative, Evangelical psychologist who changed his mind about this kind of therapy after supporting it for a number of years). And, contrary to what NARTH and JONAH claim, there is a little evidence that it is harmful: a small study by Shidlo and Schroeder is a standard reference here, the APA in their review of sexual orientation change efforts note that a high dropout rate (very common with this kind of therapy) is correlated with perceived harm, and anecdotal evidence from both psychiatrists (see this video, Q&A: Dr. Jack Drescher Discusses ‘Reparative Therapy’) and former clients (google ex-ex-gay) supports the fact that some people perceive themselves to have been harmed by their attempts to change.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Again, so-called (previous) approaches to single-minded reparative therapy are very different from newer, more successful, longer-term therapies exploring the entire construct of personhood that the homosexual has come to assume about himself or herself. Very much likened to extremely poor success rate of crash diets vs. slower, more careful, far more comprehensive and permanent lifestyle changes which result in longer term and more permanent weight loss and body-image changes than just “pounds lost” on a short-term basis. The more wholistic approach is far more difficult, requiring far more commitment and personal responsibility, as well as self-reflection and a healed sense of self, than the former.

 

[chrysostim83]

Again, so-called (previous) approaches to single-minded reparative therapy are very different from newer, more successful, longer-term therapies exploring the entire construct of personhood that the homosexual has come to assume about himself or herself.

Nicolosi and few other therapists would be a little surprised by this statement; I can almost hear them saying, “But virtually the first step in our program is to get the client to stop thinking of himself as a ‘homosexual’ and start thinking of himself as a ‘heterosexual with a homosexual problem.’ And I don’t know about anyone else, but I typically spend 3-5 years working with my clients.”

I guess what I’m saying is I don’t know what kind of therapies you’re contrasting here. Do you think you could give some concrete instances? Specifically, who characteristically advocated the previous methods and who is advocating the new ones? Is it a case of Nicolosi vs van den Aardweg, for example? And where is the evidence that the new methods are more successful?

 

[Hadrianus]

Again, so-called (previous) approaches to single-minded reparative therapy are very different from newer, more successful, longer-term therapies exploring the entire construct of personhood that the homosexual has come to assume about himself or herself. Very much likened to extremely poor success rate of crash diets vs. slower, more careful, far more comprehensive and permanent lifestyle changes which result in longer term and more permanent weight loss and body-image changes than just “pounds lost” on a short-term basis. The more wholistic approach is far more difficult, requiring far more commitment and personal responsibility, as well as self-reflection and a healed sense of self, than the former.

If true, I’d be willing to say that this could be of benefit, for as with any therapy the primary goal is a healed sense of self. It’s the claim that the orientation can actually be changed that I have always considered highly suspect.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It is just as intellectually dishonest (i.e., prejudiced) to assume that orientation can never be changed, as to assume that it always can be.

mercatornet.com/articles/view/reorienting_sexuality/

 

[Hadrianus]

It is just as intellectually dishonest (i.e., prejudiced) to assume that orientation can never be changed, as to assume that it always can be.

mercatornet.com/articles/view/reorienting_sexuality/

I agree. One should not suggest that there are complete absolutes in human psychology/neuroscience, but there are probabilities, and I think the flaw in the argument that a cure can be found for a homosexual orientation is in the probability. The danger that I see is that it raises false hopes in the majority of cases. I am also not at all sure of the science behind it, so grounded is it in what is fundamentally Freudian thought.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I agree. One should not suggest that there are complete absolutes in human psychology/neuroscience, but there are probabilities, and I think the flaw in the argument that a cure can be found for a homosexual orientation is in the probability. The danger that I see is that it raises false hopes in the majority of cases. I am also not at all sure of the science behind it, so grounuded is it in what is fundamentally Freudian thought.

Hadrianus, science would make no progress if investigations into new territories were halted before they began, because of “probability.” Scientists don’t think in this manner, or they are not true scientists. Very often it is not until something is tried that “the science behind it” is revealed, and/or explained.

Further, there are all kinds of improbable and inexplicable advances in human behavior and physical and mental therapies that defy conventional scientific approaches. Just a couple of decades ago, Western medical professionals would have laughed in anyone’s face if Eastern approaches such as acupuncture were seriously suggested. Now the integration of various therapies from a combination of disciplines is routinely integrated into traditional medicine, in many practices.

Finally, as has been said often, including by professionals, sexuality is complex. It is not a data point, so a thoroughly analyzable understanding of how orientation is often reversed is not always possible, nor is success dependent upon explanation. The same is true (again) for standard psychotherapy which does not include sexuality as contents or as goal. That doesn’t mean that psychotherapists feel compelled to stop doing talk therapy, because they can’t explain the mechanism of every element, in sequence, to lay people (or even to themselves).

I see this “demand for understanding” as just another excuse by skeptics with an agenda to dismiss exploration, and to require, uniquely, analysis and approval by the general population of sexual therapies which they would not require of any other field.

 

[Hadrianus]

Hadrianus, science would make no progress if investigations into new territories were halted before they began, because of “probability.” Scientists don’t think in this manner, or they are not true scientists. Very often it is not until something is tried that “the science behind it” is revealed, and/or explained.

Further, there are all kinds of improbable and inexplicable advances in human behavior and physical and mental therapies that defy conventional scientific approaches. Just a couple of decades ago, Western medical professionals would have laughed in anyone’s face if Eastern approaches such as acupuncture were seriously suggested. Now the integration of various therapies from a combination of disciplines is routinely integrated into traditional medicine, in many practices.

Finally, as has been said often, including by professionals, sexuality is complex. It is not a data point, so a thoroughly analyzable understanding of how orientation is often reversed is not always possible, nor is success dependent upon explanation. The same is true (again) for standard psychotherapy which does not include sexuality as contents or as goal. That doesn’t mean that psychotherapists feel compelled to stop doing talk therapy, because they can’t explain the mechanism of every element, in sequence, to lay people (or even to themselves).

I see this “demand for understanding” as just another excuse by skeptics with an agenda to dismiss exploration, and to require, uniquely, analysis and approval by the general population of sexual therapies which they would not require of any other field.

I am in total agreement and believe that people should certainly have the freedom to explore whatever they wish to do, but I would have more respect for the reparative therapy crowd if they simply said “homosexuals may not have been born that way” or “we wish to offer an attempt to change sexual orientation” or if they were open to all the neuroscientific and biological evidence, and admitted it instead of saying it was just part of a “gay agenda.” If they did this I belieive they would gain a great deal of respect.

 

[BigE]

It is just as intellectually dishonest (i.e., prejudiced) to assume that orientation can never be changed, as to assume that it always can be.

mercatornet.com/articles/view/reorienting_sexuality/

I agree.

There are certainly no absolutes in either direction (Homosexual orientation can never be changed or that homsexual orientation can always be changed). Sexuality is too complex for such a blanket statement.

But it seems to me that the data I have seen to date indicates a very, very low success rate in being able to change who someone is attracted to. So this therapy may work for someone who is marginally homosexual or bi-sexual, but not strongly homosexual.

I keep thinking about pedophelia and how (as far as I know) everyone has come to the conclusion it is “incurable”. Through therapy, incidence and action can be reduced and controlled, but the sexual attraction to children can never be “cured”.

What makes homosexuality different?

 

[larkin31]

…But it seems to me that the data I have seen to date indicates a very, very low success rate in being able to change who someone is attracted to. So this therapy may work for someone who is marginally homosexual or bi-sexual, but not strongly homosexual…

Indeed.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

About the JONAH statement, I would like to point out two things. First, the American College of Pediatricians was rebuked by Francis Collins for distorting his research on the human genome. And second, the report the JONAH statement relies on, namely, NARTH’s “What Research Shows,” has numerous problems with it, including but not limited to the use of studies on aversive therapy to support the claim that sexual orientation can be “changed.” If you don’t believe me, just google it.

On reparative therapy in general, it appears that the theory behind it is pretty much false (see, for example, this site by a conservative, Evangelical psychologist who changed his mind about this kind of therapy after supporting it for a number of years). And, contrary to what NARTH and JONAH claim, there is a little evidence that it is harmful: a small study by Shidlo and Schroeder is a standard reference here, the APA in their review of sexual orientation change efforts note that a high dropout rate (very common with this kind of therapy) is correlated with perceived harm, and anecdotal evidence from both psychiatrists (see this video, Q&A: Dr. Jack Drescher Discusses ‘Reparative Therapy’) and former clients (google ex-ex-gay) supports the fact that some people perceive themselves to have been harmed by their attempts to change.

Thank you for your post. There is no question that the debate on homosexuality and homosexual orientation is far from over. I’m with Elizabeth that sexual orientation is not a fixed point; therefore it is not unchangeable. As the author Melinda Selmys in her linked article stated: human identity is too rich, too multifaceted, too unpredictable and varied for such a simplistic notion to encompass or explain it.

I appreciate the excellent site you provided of psychology professor Dr. Warren Throckmorton. In checking other material, he believes that sexual orientation is a murky, fluid concept. I think he is right in making a distinction between reparative therapy and re-orientation counseling, which many people think are synonymous. He clarified that he is not a reparative therapist, which allows some distance and disassociation from any “agenda” that one side is accusing the other. According to Dr. Throckmorton, people should consult physicians, specialists and spiritual advisors in resolving their feelings. IOW, if a patient feels that he/she does not want to pursue what other homosexuals want for themselves, i.e., acceptance and expression of their homosexual desires, then this feeling may guide his/her decision. In his words:
“I believe therapy should focus on helping people clarify how they want to live based on a chosen set of values. Often that does involve a reflection on religion, history, upbringing, traumatization, culture, school influences, religious beliefs and the gamut of experiences that may be tied to current attractions to the same sex.

My approach is to ask clients to explain the problem as they see it, clarify their objectives and then pursue those objectives by whatever means we agree are consistent with their values. Thus, I often engage in helping people understand the difference between identity (chosen self) and attractions (feelings). Also, we often spend time understanding how our minds work. Feelings and desires are not standards or commands; they are reactions to whatever environment we find ourselves. Feelings often change as we change our environments and make commitments to chosen values. However, whether feelings change or not, we are always free to act in accord with our beliefs.”
Dr. Jack Drescher is different in that he is a staunch LGBT activist psychiatrist, serving on the board of Journal of Gay and Lesbian Psychotherapy. He was a member of the controversial APA task force. His vocal opposition to reparative therapy, with a claim that it causes harm, is known. Patients rarely come out to talk, wishing to maintain whatever privacy they have of their lives at present. But there are patients of the therapy who contend it is helpful and protest Dr. Drescher’s view.

Here is one, Steve who responded to Dr. Drescher’s appearance on Nightline at ABC. He argues his life was more dangerous when he was living the lifestyle. He posted this letter in November 2010 on the JONAH site as well.

According to a Chinese proverb, “Those who say it can’t be done should stay out of the way of those doing it.” It’s a dismissive message with wisdom alright, but I prefer the Christian perspective on the controversy of therapy. Courage, a Catholic apostolate helping individuals with SSA has this to say about it:
If success is defined as significant personal growth, then the great majority of people will find therapy effective. Not everyone wants to overcome homosexuality. Treatment is only effective for people who value the discovery of their heterosexuality. To urge therapy on the unwilling is pointless.

Peace.
,

 

[BigE]

Thank you for your post. There is no question that the debate on homosexuality and homosexual orientation is far from over. I’m with Elizabeth that sexual orientation is not a fixed point; therefore it is not unchangeable. As the author Melinda Selmys in her linked article stated: human identity is too rich, too multifaceted, too unpredictable and varied for such a simplistic notion to encompass or explain it.

I appreciate the excellent site you provided of psychology professor Dr. Warren Throckmorton. In checking other material, he believes that sexual orientation is a murky, fluid concept. I think he is right in making a distinction between reparative therapy and re-orientation counseling, which many people think are synonymous. He clarified that he is not a reparative therapist, which allows some distance and disassociation from any “agenda” that one side is accusing the other. According to Dr. Throckmorton, people should consult physicians, specialists and spiritual advisors in resolving their feelings. IOW, if a patient feels that he/she does not want to pursue what other homosexuals want for themselves, i.e., acceptance and expression of their homosexual desires, then this feeling may guide his/her decision. In his words:
“I believe therapy should focus on helping people clarify how they want to live based on a chosen set of values. Often that does involve a reflection on religion, history, upbringing, traumatization, culture, school influences, religious beliefs and the gamut of experiences that may be tied to current attractions to the same sex.

My approach is to ask clients to explain the problem as they see it, clarify their objectives and then pursue those objectives by whatever means we agree are consistent with their values. Thus, I often engage in helping people understand the difference between identity (chosen self) and attractions (feelings). Also, we often spend time understanding how our minds work. Feelings and desires are not standards or commands; they are reactions to whatever environment we find ourselves. Feelings often change as we change our environments and make commitments to chosen values. However, whether feelings change or not, we are always free to act in accord with our beliefs.”
Dr. Jack Drescher is different in that he is a staunch LGBT activist psychiatrist, serving on the board of Journal of Gay and Lesbian Psychotherapy. He was a member of the controversial APA task force. His vocal opposition to reparative therapy, with a claim that it causes harm, is known. Patients rarely come out to talk, wishing to maintain whatever privacy they have of their lives at present. But there are patients of the therapy who contend it is helpful and protest Dr. Drescher’s view.

Here is one, Steve who responded to Dr. Drescher’s appearance on Nightline at ABC. He argues his life was more dangerous when he was living the lifestyle. He posted this letter in November 2010 on the JONAH site as well.

According to a Chinese proverb, “Those who say it can’t be done should stay out of the way of those doing it.” It’s a dismissive message with wisdom alright, but I prefer the Christian perspective on the controversy of therapy. Courage, a Catholic apostolate helping individuals with SSA has this to say about it:
If success is defined as significant personal growth, then the great majority of people will find therapy effective. Not everyone wants to overcome homosexuality. Treatment is only effective for people who value the discovery of their heterosexuality. To urge therapy on the unwilling is pointless.
Peace.
,

All good and well. And I certainly don’t dispute the fluidity of sexual orientation.

But let’s not ignore the stats - which as i said before indicate a VERY LOW success rate.

“From the available data, four studies reported a “success” rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.5% and 0.04%. That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study.”

“Jack Drescher is a New York psychiatrist and chairperson of the American Psychiatric Association’s committee on gay, lesbian and bisexual issues told a Washington Post reporter in 2005: “There are probably a small number of people with some flexibility in their sexual identity who can change. Out of the hundreds of gay men I’ve treated, I’ve had one.” If we assume that his term “sexual identity” is a synonym for “sexual orientation,” and that Dr. Drescher has treated 200 gay men, then he would seem to estimate that about 99.5% of gay men have a fixed sexual orientation, and that only about 0.5% can change their orientation.”

religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm

 

[Untruth]

So I have spent some time reading these posts and I just want to clear some things up.

First off, I am gay and I am Catholic. I realized I had attractions to men at the age of twelve (I am now 18) and I used to pray to God every single night for years to “change” me. Luckily, within the past year or so, God has helped me realize that there is nothing I need to change. He created me this way, I don’t care what anyone else believes on here, but God, yes the same God you believe in, created me this way.

There are no therapies that “work” to help gay people become straight because there is no need for such therapies. People who claim that they have changed are extremely messed up in their brains and sadly are living a lie, even if they aren’t aware of it.

In regards to the celibacy issue - gays technically aren’t even having “sex” as it is defined by the Church - so how could the possibly be celibate if they were having anal “sex?”

What saddens me the most about reading these posts is that there is a kid out there, if not hundreds or thousands of kids out there, who read these posts and hate who they are because of them. They are twelve, thirteen and even eighteen years old and literally think about ending their lives on a daily basis. Sadly, many of them do kill themselves because of the ignorance echoed on message boards like these. Instead of preaching hate towards gays (and I know many of you claim that you aren’t preaching hate, but I’m sorry, I’m gay and I feel hated), you should all realize that we believe in the same God that loves everyone no matter what. Before you cast your judgment upon those who do not even need to be judged, take a moment and examine your life. Do your actual sins outweigh the “sins” that gay people who are truly in love are “committing?” So please, before another kid decides to hang himself with his belt in his closet, stop preaching such intolerable hate on boards like these and in real life.

Hi there,

I’m a Catholic who has same-sex attractions too, I read all of these posts but don’t feel hated. I think that most gay people mistake the Church as “hating” them but rather against their actions. What I’ve learned reading almost all of the posts in this thread is that if you have same-sex attractions, the only way to deal with it in a religious way is to be celibate or try to find a woman you love and live like that. I admit I’ve never dated a guy or girl yet, but I feel more sexually attracted to guys. I’ve never done anything with either gender and the farthest that I’ve gone is just masturbation/porn. I still try to figure out what to do because there was only one guy I ever had a crush on but for his sake I try to avoid things because I think he’s in the closet and he’s Catholic too so to not allow things to continue I just want us to be friends.

I’m not sure but I think the Bible says that anal sex is wrong anyway. I do agree that maybe some homosexuals who try to pretend that they’re not feeling attracted to the same sex and try to lead a normal life are lying to themselves. I found more comfort in understanding the feelings and trying to seek out help and knowledge on how to deal with is from a Catholic point of view. You say that the posts in this thread was just hate, well I didn’t get that but rather learned a lot. I know that the world is very hateful towards gays and that’s why I’ve revealed nothing about myself having those attractions, that is the only thing I wish the Church would address. The Church needs to make it clear that She doesn’t hate gay people, but rather their actions and make it clear what they want. I think most gay people don’t understand what the Church asks of them and just assumes that it’s hate, while of course others are just totally against it.

Anyway, after reading through the thread which I came to for help, I have come to the conclusion that I will try to seek out a girl that I may love as I do want a wife and children. I will always have this same-sex attraction, it will never leave me but I will try to control it. I have to admit that as a teenager (I’m 20 now) it was much more rampant and I watched tons of porn but now it’s cooling down to the point where sometimes I don’t even watch porn anymore only sometimes. I actually think that after a lot of reading and thinking on the matter I’ve grown-up (at least my sexual mind) where I see things more clearly and for what they are. I think that homosexuals wouldn’t have such a hard-time dealing with celibacy/being with a woman if the idea of sex was changed from what it currently is. Everyone sees sex as fun and whatever, due to TV/movies/etc but it’s about giving yourself to a woman/man and completing God’s image. I think most people will probably be like “gay sex is bad but if I have pre-marital sex with a chick it’s cool.” Lots of thoughts needs to change:

Homosexuals are not hated by the Church, their actions (sex) is a sin.

Hatred towards homosexuals needs to stop, I think that’s one factor that makes them want to be a “stronger gay community” and hence making them not want to try to change/adjust their lives.

The view on sex needs to change.

 

[Mustang1971]

Untruth, you bring up a good point that the attitudes about sex need to change. Today it is portrayed like some big party. If you are not participating then your life is just not complete. I know that hearing this on a daily basis really makes following the Church on her teachings on sex in very difficult.

When I first read what the CCC said about homosexuality, I have to admit I was a bit offended. I really got hung up on the term disordered. I thought great now they are telling me I am broken also! Now I understand how the term is used and I have a better understanding of what the Church teaches and why. Unfortunately I have seen where some people do not distinguish between the sin and the sinner.

 

[Untruth]

Untruth, you bring up a good point that the attitudes about sex need to change. Today it is portrayed like some big party. If you are not participating then your life is just not complete. I know that hearing this on a daily basis really makes following the Church on her teachings on sex in very difficult.

When I first read what the CCC said about homosexuality, I have to admit I was a bit offended. I really got hung up on the term disordered. I thought great now they are telling me I am broken also! Now I understand how the term is used and I have a better understanding of what the Church teaches and why. Unfortunately I have seen where some people do not distinguish between the sin and the sinner.

Yeah it makes it hard for me when I say to my friends that what I truly want is a wife, they laugh. They ask if I’m a virgin, and I proudly say yes, they laugh. Then from that they assume I’m gay, which is true that I have the same-sex attraction but I’m not actively pursuing the lifestyle. Even though I haven’t told anyone about it in my life, people think I’m gay and some people are even mean to me. I thought that in high school you’d be treated differently yet people understood there (I consider myself different/unique acting) but in college people act like idiots… weird…

Yeah, the Church needs to stop being quiet on things like sex and homosexuality. They need to also approach it differently. The media has already conveyed the message that the Church “hates” people that are gay and that the Church says sex is wrong. The way that they convey the message and hence the way it’s seen by the majority of people is that the Church is extremely one-sided to things. The teachings may be one-sided that no matter what, homosexual actions are sins and premarital sex is the sin but the way that the media expresses it is that “sin” equates to “hate” and so people will try to avoid the Church and not even bother try to understand.

 

[vsedriver]

Yeah, the Church needs to stop being quiet on things like sex and homosexuality. They need to also approach it differently. The media has already conveyed the message that the Church “hates” people that are gay and that the Church says sex is wrong. The way that they convey the message and hence the way it’s seen by the majority of people is that the Church is extremely one-sided to things. The teachings may be one-sided that no matter what, homosexual actions are sins and premarital sex is the sin but the way that the media expresses it is that “sin” equates to “hate” and so people will try to avoid the Church and not even bother try to understand.

The media reaches more people than the Church does. How many times have you heard that the Church thinks sex is dirty? When the truth is that the Church teaches that sex is holy.

Discrediting the Church gives secular society permission to be sinful. Secular society actively promotes premarital sex even though statistics show that it is harmful to both the individual and society. You end up with people unable to make true commitments, divorce, abortion, birth control, single mothers, and children shuffled from place to place without a stable home.

You are very right though that the Church doesn’t hate gays. We all have a cross to bear. Sometimes we make our own cross and sometimes it is given to us unasked for. The only real question is how are we to carry that cross?

 

[Untruth]

The media reaches more people than the Church does. How many times have you heard that the Church thinks sex is dirty? When the truth is that the Church teaches that sex is holy.

Discrediting the Church gives secular society permission to be sinful. Secular society actively promotes premarital sex even though statistics show that it is harmful to both the individual and society. You end up with people unable to make true commitments, divorce, abortion, birth control, single mothers, and children shuffled from place to place without a stable home.

You are very right though that the Church doesn’t hate gays. We all have a cross to bear. Sometimes we make our own cross and sometimes it is given to us unasked for. The only real question is how are we to carry that cross?

Trust me, if the Pope made a statement to the press that “The Church doesn’t hate gays” and explained things, some gay people who were Catholic and thought that the religion hated them may change and seek to fix things. I think the deviant behaviour stems from being hated, it reaches a point where you feel like “if they hate me so much for what I am then I’ll be who I am to the max” and hence seek out different people of the same-sex to have sex with wildly.

The sex thing is something that honestly is close to my heart because my two sets of grandparents divorced and my parents divorced. I want to have a relationship that will last through marriage, even though I have same-sex attractions. It’s just the type of girls where I live and around the world really are changing to suit the lifestyles of what the media shows which is you can have sex wildly, date/break up as if it were just a game etc etc. I swear that if I could find a girl who truly loved me and I loved her, I’d be able to control my same-sex attraction easier because that’s what I’ve always wanted in life.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

All good and well. And I certainly don’t dispute the fluidity of sexual orientation.

But let’s not ignore the stats - which as i said before indicate a VERY LOW success rate.

“From the available data, four studies reported a “success” rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.5% and 0.04%. That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study.”

“Jack Drescher is a New York psychiatrist and chairperson of the American Psychiatric Association’s committee on gay, lesbian and bisexual issues told a Washington Post reporter in 2005: “There are probably a small number of people with some flexibility in their sexual identity who can change. Out of the hundreds of gay men I’ve treated, I’ve had one.” If we assume that his term “sexual identity” is a synonym for “sexual orientation,” and that Dr. Drescher has treated 200 gay men, then he would seem to estimate that about 99.5% of gay men have a fixed sexual orientation, and that only about 0.5% can change their orientation.”

religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm

Your position noted. Anyway, those who care to follow the subject closely know about Dr. Drescher and which side he’s on on reparative or conversion therapy. Therapy as used before (conversion being the objective) is being scrutinized as it should and newer approaches are being used, taking in consideration the patient’s belief system. I suppose we can say that the state of therapy is also fluid at this time.

Re-orientation counseling should not be dropped just because of the direction the APA has taken, which is favoring only one side, the side of gay advocates, who want to speak for all SSA people, as though they have a corner on what all wish to do.

Btw, let me point out with due respect the composition of the people behind the Religious Tolerance site you cited:

We really are a group of 5 volunteers: two Unitarian Universalists (one Agnostic and one Atheist), one Wiccan one progressive but unaffiliated Christian, and a Zen Buddhist. Three of us are female; two male. All are heterosexual. Three are married. We range in age from early 30s to early 70s. We have very different backgrounds …

Please note that the head of the group is an Agnostic. There is a section that says they are open to having religious conservatives on board. I think until they have one or more, what is provided on the site by way of information is lacking, as well as what is posited is grossly missing in perspective.

For the bigger picture, Catholics are now seen as a minority, or rather, Catholics faithful to the Church teaching on the matter. Yet, representatives of cultural Catholics, non-Catholic faiths and agnostics/atheists are on this forum trying to get everyone from the faithful to support gay causes. Why is that?
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Hi there,

I’m a Catholic who has same-sex attractions too, I read all of these posts but don’t feel hated. I think that most gay people mistake the Church as “hating” them but rather against their actions. What I’ve learned reading almost all of the posts in this thread is that if you have same-sex attractions, the only way to deal with it in a religious way is to be celibate or try to find a woman you love and live like that.
…
Homosexuals are not hated by the Church, their actions (sex) is a sin.
…
The view on sex needs to change.

Untruth, this and your subsequent posts reflect a discerning person for all your young years. May God bless you. I am glad you are following this thread.

Untruth, you bring up a good point that the attitudes about sex need to change. Today it is portrayed like some big party. If you are not participating then your life is just not complete. I know that hearing this on a daily basis really makes following the Church on her teachings on sex in very difficult.

When I first read what the CCC said about homosexuality, I have to admit I was a bit offended. I really got hung up on the term disordered. I thought great now they are telling me I am broken also! Now I understand how the term is used and I have a better understanding of what the Church teaches and why. Unfortunately I have seen where some people do not distinguish between the sin and the sinner.

What you say is true, Mustang. Peace and grace in your continued journey.

**The media reaches more people than the Church does. How many times have you heard that the Church thinks sex is dirty? When the truth is that the Church teaches that sex is holy.

Discrediting the Church gives secular society permission to be sinful. Secular society actively promotes premarital sex even though statistics show that it is harmful to both the individual and society. You end up with people unable to make true commitments, divorce, abortion, birth control, single mothers, and children shuffled from place to place without a stable home.

You are very right though that the Church doesn’t hate gays. We all have a cross to bear. Sometimes we make our own cross and sometimes it is given to us unasked for. The only real question is how are we to carry that cross?**

[bolding added]

 

[BigE]

Btw, let me point out with due respect the composition of the people behind the Religious Tolerance site you cited:

Please note that the head of the group is an Agnostic. There is a section that says they are open to having religious conservatives on board. I think until they have one or more, what is provided on the site by way of information is lacking, as well as what is posited is grossly missing in perspective.

For the bigger picture, Catholics are now seen as a minority, or rather, Catholics faithful to the Church teaching on the matter. Yet, representatives of cultural Catholics, non-Catholic faiths and agnostics/atheists are on this forum trying to get everyone from the faithful to support gay causes. Why is that?
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1. All else being equal - I would assume an agnostic would actually be pretty nuetral in the presentation and interpretation of facts surrounding reparative therapy. Same goes for the majority of the 97% of of psychologists and psychiatrists in the APA and AMA. Why would agnostics, or medical professionals for that matter, have a bias towards or against reparative therapy? In this debate, who would you actually define as being “unbiased”?
2. And even if there was bias, how would that change the facts presented? It would be better for your argument to either show how the studies presented that show a success rate of less than 1% for reparative therapy are flawed…or…produce documented, peer reviewed studies that show reparative therapy has a significantly higher success rate. Pointing to bias seems to be a dodge of the facts.