Homosexuals and Salvation

[LCMS_No_More]

A person who is homosexually attracted, who may or may not have acted out on their attraction, has come to you for information about what you believe about it. What do you tell them?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

When it comes to Church teaching, polls don’t matter overmuch. It’s what the Church actually teaches that matters. From the Catechism, a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” according to HHPJPII:

[2357](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2357.htm’) Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. **These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. **

 

[Edwin1961]

The selections were rather limited, but I would say that salvation for Anyone is tough.
You can lose your salvation if you are the state of Mortal Sin. WIth that said, Yes Jesus came so that we may rest in His salvation.

When you become a Christian, life suddenly becomes a tough row to hoe. You are tempted MORE because Satan wants you to bo back to him. He will throw spiritual warfare at you and it will be intense!

I turned away from that lifestyle in 2001, and fully accept the Church’s teaching. I tend to call it Same Sex Attraction, because ‘gay’ is a political term.

I struggle with thoughts, but the idea is to turn your thoughts to Jesus and fill your mind with ‘good’ things, and pray for those who struggle with this everyday.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

When it comes to Church teaching, polls don’t matter overmuch. It’s what the Church actually teaches that matters. From the Catechism, a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” according to HHPJPII:

I heartily agree with you on that! I’ve seen posts, however, that would lead me to believe that the ONLY thing that people take from CCC paragraphs 2357-2359 is the two words “objectively disordered” from paragraph 2358 and run with that. They ignore the rest of the text and end up with option no. 1 of the poll.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The selections were rather limited, but I would say that salvation for Anyone is tough.
You can lose your salvation if you are the state of Mortal Sin. WIth that said, Yes Jesus came so that we may rest in His salvation.

When you become a Christian, life suddenly becomes a tough row to hoe. You are tempted MORE because Satan wants you to bo back to him. He will throw spiritual warfare at you and it will be intense!

I agree. There’s a purpose in the poll.

I turned away from that lifestyle in 2001, and fully accept the Church’s teaching. I tend to call it Same Sex Attraction, because ‘gay’ is a political term.

Same here except my turning away from “that lifestyle” is much more recent. I agree about the term “gay” being political. That’s why I don’t use it.

I struggle with thoughts, but the idea is to turn your thoughts to Jesus and fill your mind with ‘good’ things, and pray for those who struggle with this everyday.

Amen, brother! I agree heartily with that. It’s VERY difficult to do but with God’s grace, it IS possible. Would that more people thought as you do.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

Yes, people with SSA can have salvation!

Looking at this excerpt from the Catechism:

**These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. **

Substitute the word “Single” for “Homosexual”. It’s the same situation. We’re both called to chastity because of our “state” in life. I think we have a harder road to travel than married people do (no legitimate outlet for, well, you know), but salvation is certainly possible, as much for people with SSA as for single people.

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag

 

[contemplative]

Assuming that the person coming to me is Catholic and has a general knowledge of the Church teachings then I would say this.

As a heterosexual and married, I am inclined to look in places beyond my spouse for sexual satisfaction. I happen to know this is wrong and why it is wrong. Science has actually proven how this is likely to happen in most heterosexual relationships and why. Even though this is what I feel and want to do and even though science confirms that it is natural I don’t act upon my bodily desires because I desire to obey and love God more. Even when my desire to roam is really great I go through the motions of obeying God and offer my obedience to Him….however little that is. God knows I try and we all should simply obey God even when we don’t understand at first. If you ask God to help you understand then eventually He just might answer. You don’t need to fully understand why sometimes. Some people live their whole lives in obedience to God without fully understanding why. I believe the effort to be obedient is sufficient. This is a good approach for SSA people too. Just simply obey even when your body or science or the culture in which you live tells you to go ahead and ‘act out’. Ask God to help you understand. In time maybe you will understand but maybe you will seemingly live a life time without understanding and only obeying.

All this takes a great trust and love for God.

 

[JOHNYJ]

One of the great things about Catholocism is that it has never been big on being black or white .Gray has always been a Catholic color. sins are judged by degrees of wrongness.
regretfuly some of our protestant bretheran are much more black and white and are unable to seperate the sinner from the sin.

 

[twiztedseraph]

I cannot read this entire thread so I’m gonna guess that I’m just reiterating what my brother Catholics have written. Homosexual “orientation” isn’t evil, its acting on it thats evil. Thus there is alot of hope for homosexuals and well anyone that has sinful impulses which is everyone born after Adam and Eve minus Jesus and Mary. So yes, sin not the impulse to sin (unless entertained etc) is evil.

 

[Magicsilence]

twiztedseraph:

I cannot read this entire thread so I’m gonna guess that I’m just reiterating what my brother Catholics have written.

It wasnt long at all!!!

The key issue here though, is the sin of lust. Homosexuality only occurs because we have been to taught through this modern culture to judge others by appearance. Therefore, choosing a wife is not because of her beautiful personality but how much she conforms to the hollywood standard. If we were to judge people by what was on the inside it would be a whole lot better.

THEREFORE, when people get these thoughts, they must remember that those who are straight or whatever else, struggle with the sin of lust JUST AS MUCH as them, the difference is the object of desire put as the goal. Man, woman, sheep. It doesnt make a difference, the sin of homosexuality is not so much bad because it is a man and a man, though that is mainly why, but because they are using each other for pure carnal pleasure, and having the thoughts for pleasure of the mind. We cant tell with a man and a woman, because it could be based on love, and each others personality, BUT with a man and a man we know that the reason is desire of another for their own gratification, BECAUSE there can never be a child produced.

Those who struggle with thoughts are told that they are going to hell or whatever, when we struggle with the exact same thoughts!! The sin of lust, or desiring others for ones own pleasure. It is always wrong, and IMO, doesnt get worse because it is a man thinking about a man.

For those who suffer from SSA, may God Be With You.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Magicsilece, your post is wonderful except for this line:

Homosexuality only occurs because we have been to taught through this modern culture to judge others by appearance.

Actually, there are underlying reasons behind why a person becomes same-sex attracted. The two big theories that I’m aware of are Elizabeth Moberly’s theory of defensive detachment and same-sex ambivalence (which I am partial to) and Gerald van den Ardweg’s theory about SSA being a form of self-pitying neurosis. Since I’m more partial to Moberly’s theory, I know a little more about it and can definitely RELATE to it.

A young boy (or girl) experiences, what he (or she) perceives to be (whether real or not–perception is everything here), a rejection of him (or her) as a male (female) by the same-sex parent. To an adult, this may not seem to be a big-deal but to a child, this can be traumatic. Since the way a boy (or girl) develops is to identify with and model himself (herself) after the same-sex parent, this perceived rejection causes the child to defensively detach from the same-sex parent in order to keep those kinds of traumas from happening again. This has the additional affect of stopping all identification and modeling as daddy (or mommy) are no longer an attractive person to model one’s self after or identify with. Since modeling ceases, there is a wall between the same-sex parent and the child and the parent becomes frustrated.

I know in my case, I remember CLEARLY that my own fantasy life revolved around, “what would it be like to be so-and-so (another boy)?” It wasn’t sexual, but I found that those thoughts became eroticized as I underwent puberty.

Almost a CLASSIC case of defensive detachment (I still feel a wall go up when I talk to my dad on the phone) and same-sex ambivalence. To be honest, the thought of being in a room of “straight” men terrifies me because I fear rejection and being mocked mercilessly. My dad used to mock things that I was interested in, even the “manly” things. I have all kinds of masculine attributes but I can’t RELATE to what it’s like to be a man because it’s not “there” in my heart.

I know it’s hard for people to understand that, especially those who were fortunate enough to have developed properly. God bless you if you did. I don’t feel quite so blessed sometimes. Having same-sex attractions sometimes feels like the loneliest thing in the universe because one feels that they are neither male nor female, fish nor fowl. A straight man knows how to relate to other man and a straight woman knows how to relate to other women. I don’t know how to relate to…anyone, not even other SSA people because every SSA person’s struggle is DIFFERENT.

So, please…pray for me. Lord knows, I need prayers. Thanks.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

To whoever voted for “it would be more difficult for you than for me,” I’d really be interesting in your reasoning behind that vote.

Is it that your developing properly made you more holy?

Or is it that God loves people with SSA any less?

Or is it that the sacraments are quite as effective for a person with SSA?

Or is it that grace, in general, doesn’t work the same in a person with SSA?

I’m really interested in your reasoning.

 

[ncrown23334]

i have to ask… how many people here honostly think that homosexual marriage is unacceptable, i live in massachusetts, i see it all the time… and honostly, most of the catholics i know in massachusetts support it, public approval ratings are at around 70-75%, and a lot of christians, jewish, and other affiliations support it, the most common response i get is “if it makes them happy, then america is a better place”, and i also got this one once," the african-american struggle for rights was in the 60’s, and now it is the gays in the 2000’s, so it’s their right", and i also looked into it more deeply, it would make the federal governemnt(alone) $200 million per/year if they allowed gay marriage

 

[LCMS_No_More]

While this is outside the bounds of the topic at hand, let me be clear about what I believe about “gay marriage.”

Marriage is a SACRAMENT OF THE CHURCH. That means that the Church defines what is a marriage. Jesus told us that “male and female He created them and the man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to the female and they shall become one flesh.” That indicates that God intends for marriage to between a man and a woman.

Now, this argument that “gay marriage” will somehow make a “straight marriage” of lesser value is utter rubbish and nonsense. A “gay marriage” is inherently INVALID because it is not properly a sacrament.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ncrown23334:

i have to ask… how many people here honostly think that homosexual marriage is unacceptable, i live in massachusetts, i see it all the time… and honostly, most of the catholics i know in massachusetts support it, public approval ratings are at around 70-75%, and a lot of christians, jewish, and other affiliations support it, the most common response i get is “if it makes them happy, then america is a better place”, and i also got this one once," the african-american struggle for rights was in the 60’s, and now it is the gays in the 2000’s, so it’s their right", and i also looked into it more deeply, it would make the federal governemnt(alone) $200 million per/year if they allowed gay marriage

Truth isn’t determined by a vote or public approval ratings, it’s determined by God. In the Old Testament, in the New Testaments, in the pereniel teachings of the Church, same sex physical relations haved been condemned. The Church can no more change this than she can change the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[felra]

LCMS_No_More:

A person who is homosexually attracted, who may or may not have acted out on their attraction, has come to you for information about what you believe about it. What do you tell them?

Tell them about Jesus. Tell them what the Church teaches. Tell them that he/she is no further from salvation than me or the next sinner, because through His dying and death on the Cross, Jesus Christ has already made provision for our slavation; all that each person need to do is accept this provision for their salvation-repent and believe. Tell that nothing is impossible with God. Tell them to pray for the salvation of my soul as I likewise pray for them.

Mark 1:14-15 “… Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.’ ”

Mar 9:23**,“**And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.”

 

[ncrown23334]

In response:
How are we sure that god really hates homosexuality, if he did, wouldn’t he intervene? if he created all this, why did he create/allow homosexuality if it is so bad? shouldn’t the matter of someone’s homo/hetero/bi/a sexual lifestyle be taken up with god when we die and are judged? and there we can learn the true meaning of what he thinks? perhaps he himself will condemn it, or he will be fine with it, he may not even care, and the church has been proven wrong before(galileo), so who is not to say that this is not the true will of god. please note: if i got a religous term or something wrong, it is because i am an atheist, not a catholic who doesn’t pay attention in church

 

[felra]

ncrown23334:

In response:
How are we sure that god really hates homosexuality, if he did, wouldn’t he intervene? if he created all this, why did he create/allow homosexuality if it is so bad? shouldn’t the matter of someone’s homo/hetero/bi/a sexual lifestyle be taken up with god when we die and are judged? and there we can learn the true meaning of what he thinks? perhaps he himself will condemn it, or he will be fine with it, he may not even care, and the church has been proven wrong before(galileo), so who is not to say that this is not the true will of god. please note: if i got a religous term or something wrong, it is because i am an atheist, not a catholic who doesn’t pay attention in church

If one rejects and does not have faith, then nothing adds up. Faith is understanding things from God’s point of view, as He has revealed this knowledge to believers through the bible, tradition and teaching of the Church. To get your questions truly aswered, pray for the gift of faith.

 

[Ruthie]

Dear LCMS No More,

You are in my prayers. I admire your courage.

I have a suggestion: look for a book, Dave Barry’s Guide to Guys. I call it my marriage manual, because I learned a lot about guys from it, while laughing till my stomach hurt!

Without it, I would be uselessly getting my feelings hurt during football season. Thanks to Dave Barry, every time football season begins, I just remind myself that my hubby can’t hear me until the commercial comes on. And I grin about it.

The book helps me laugh affectionately at guy stuff. And that ability increases my tolerance of it, too.

You can sit next to me at Church anytime!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Thanks, Ruthie!

I can’t take the credit for anything, God gets all the glory for all that He’s doing in my life.

I’ll definitely look into the book you mentioned. Thanks for the tip.