Homosexuals and the afterlife

[mathematoons]

OK, I promised myself I wouldn’t start a homosexuality thread, but the woman who helps me take care of my guinea pigs (let’s call her “Colleen”–she helps me hold them still for nail trims, gives me general guinea pig advice, etc. every once in a while) is an openly practicing homosexual and a Buddhist, and my mom and I were talking about her. I said that Colleen is probably not going to make it into Heaven unless she repents, given 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (and the fact that homosexual acts are mortal sin). My mom said that since Colleen isn’t Christian and doesn’t know that homosexual acts are sin, she has invincible ignorance. I don’t think invincible ignorance applies to natural law, but I could be wrong.

Which one of us is right? If I’m right, does that mean I have to try to preach the Gospel to Colleen even though she can’t stand anything Christian (she doesn’t know we’re Catholic)? If my mom is right, then for what sins is ignorance no excuse?

P.S. If you don’t think homosexual acts are sin at all, then this thread is NOT for you.

 

[SteveGC]

OK, I promised myself I wouldn’t start a homosexuality thread, but the woman who helps me take care of my guinea pigs (let’s call her “Colleen”–she helps me hold them still for nail trims, gives me general guinea pig advice, etc. every once in a while) is an openly practicing homosexual and a Buddhist, and my mom and I were talking about her. I said that Colleen is probably not going to make it into Heaven unless she repents, given 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (and the fact that homosexual acts are mortal sin). My mom said that since Colleen isn’t Christian and doesn’t know that homosexual acts are sin, she has invincible ignorance. I don’t think invincible ignorance applies to natural law, but I could be wrong.

Which one of us is right? If I’m right, does that mean I have to try to preach the Gospel to Colleen even though she can’t stand anything Christian (she doesn’t know we’re Catholic)? If my mom is right, then for what sins is ignorance no excuse?

P.S. If you don’t think homosexual acts are sin at all, then this thread is NOT for you.

There’s a ton of debate about invincible ignorance, which is essentially what your question would primarily revolve around.

Some claim that in our modern culture and age of information, a citizen of a country which has received a significant amount of Catholic teaching (which is just about every country in the world - save for a few remote regions), will be hard pressed to claim invincible ignorance to objective truth. It is simply out there in an easily accessible fashion. Others say that it all depends on the circumstances surrounding the environment and upbringing of that person - the ingrained beliefs and customs, etc.

From a Jimmy Akin excerpt on this website: **Ignorance is invincible if a person could not remove it by applying reasonable diligence in determining the answer. Ignorance is vincible if a person could remove it by applying reasonable diligence. Reasonable diligence, in turn, is that diligence that a conscientious person would display in seeking the correct answer to a question given (a) the gravity of the question and (b) his particular resources. ** Click here to read the rest…

 

[karebear92]

I can’t say this for certain, well nobody really can other than God, but I would say invincible ignorance would not apply to her based on her “not standing anything Christian.” As in, she clearly knows, at least partly, what the Church teaches. If she rejects the Church because the Church rejects her lifestyle, then I would say she is aware of the gravity of her actions, and knows that they are sinful. I don’t think ignorance would come into play as it is natural law written on the hearts of all and it appears she does know Christian theology to a certain extent, or she would not have anything to reject. I can not say whether or not she will be saved through God’s mercy, but I don’t think that invincible ignorance would apply. Once again, that is just my opinion based on my understanding of invincible ignorance.

In my opinion, I would mention in a gentle way that you will teach her the Catholic faith and why homosexual acts are sinful, but only if you think she is currently unaware of the reason or if you think she will be open to what you have to say. In other words, if you think she might fall under invincible ignorance, I would inform her. If she is aware of the Christian standpoint and strongly rejects it, I don’t see the point in starting the argument. There is no reason to teach what one already knows and has decided to deliberately act against.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I can’t say this for certain, well nobody really can other than God, but I would say invincible ignorance would not apply to her based on her “not standing anything Christian.” If she rejects the Church because the Church rejects her lifestyle, then I would say she is aware of the gravity of her actions, and knows that they are sinful.

I agree with this as well. Many people rejct the church teaching because they don’t like it, because it doesn’t ‘feel right for them’. That is not ignorance, but pride.

However, I’m always careful not to discuss whether someone will got to hell or not. It smacks of evangelical beliefs of who is ‘saved’ and who is not. We should trust in God’s infinite mercy and hope that people who die recognise it in the last hours of their life and repent. Perhaps you could explain why the church teaches certain things about homosexual acts. People often don’t really understand that and claim the the church hates people with SSA. That is not the case and it should be clarified. What she does with that information is her bussiness. Maybe she will seriously think about it at some point in her life. Just keep her in your prayers.

 

[markomalley]

OK, I promised myself I wouldn’t start a homosexuality thread, but the woman who helps me take care of my guinea pigs (let’s call her “Colleen”–she helps me hold them still for nail trims, gives me general guinea pig advice, etc. every once in a while) is an openly practicing homosexual and a Buddhist, and my mom and I were talking about her. I said that Colleen is probably not going to make it into Heaven unless she repents, given 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (and the fact that homosexual acts are mortal sin). My mom said that since Colleen isn’t Christian and doesn’t know that homosexual acts are sin, she has invincible ignorance. I don’t think invincible ignorance applies to natural law, but I could be wrong.

Which one of us is right? If I’m right, does that mean I have to try to preach the Gospel to Colleen even though she can’t stand anything Christian (she doesn’t know we’re Catholic)? If my mom is right, then for what sins is ignorance no excuse?

P.S. If you don’t think homosexual acts are sin at all, then this thread is NOT for you.

First of all, I love your PS. As anybody here would listen to that.

Now that this is out of the way, homosexual acts are a blatant, clear violation of the laws of nature as well as the law of God.

If a person murders another and does not repent of that murder, invincible ignorance is not going to count for much…I think almost everybody would agree with that. If a person commits an armed robbery for the purposes of mere avarice, I don’t know too many people who would say that invincible ignorance would count for much. Likewise, the rape of a child.

These things are part of the natural law that is written on our hearts. We don’t need stone tablets, a Bible, or the Universal Magesterium to recognize those things.

Well, tab A goes in slot B. That’s the biological function of those two anatomical parts. Slot B is not designed for a tongue. Slot B is not designed for a finger. Slot B is not designed for a mechanical contraption. To put it bluntly. That is perfectly obvious to anybody who objectively looks at how the body is designed to work. Thus, common sense says that those who feel compelled to insert tab A someplace else or insert something into slot B that isn’t supposed to go there will have a very hard time claiming invincible ignorance.

HAVING SAID THAT

We live in a sick, twisted, perverse society that loves indoctrinating its members to believe that up is down, right is wrong, and wrong is right. This indoctrination of society regarding the tolerance, no, acceptance and embrace, or the perversion of homosexuality has been going on for at least the past 40 years. So if she had any pangs of conscience, those pangs could very rapidly be blunted by parents, friends, psychologists, school counselors, and, unfortunately, even by a large number of “Christian” ministers.

And if that happens, her culpability could be mitigated…not from invincible ignorance but from the lack of ability to make free and full consent.

BUT

Is it our place to make a determination of who is going to hell? That is God’s job, not ours. We should have confidence in the mercy of God and pray for the conversion of sinners, not make declarations of who is populating and going to populate hell.

Frankly, myself, I would be more concerned that she is a Buddhist at this juncture than anything else. If she is an apostate from Christianity (whether Catholic, Orthodox, or some heretical innovation), that is particularly of concern.

I would submit to you that the best course of action would be to be the light of the world to her (Phil 2:15) and to allow the Holy Spirit to melt her heart. You say that she can’t stand anything Christian, perhaps that is as the result of some bad experience. Not standing anything Christian is not the typical Buddhist attitude I’ve see in my limited experience. If you know her well enough, you might consider asking her in conversation why she has such a distaste. But before you do, you may wish to consider the following:
[bibledrb]1 Pet 3:15[/bibledrb]
FWIW, YMMV

 

[Veritas248]

There is also the possibility of a misunderstanding of Christianity, but Pride can definitely be a factor.

As far as invincible ignorance is concerned, I cannot say. It would seem to be in the same category of the state of other people’s hearts, which we can have no knowledge of. I will share some advice that helps me immensely when I am witnessing and praying for others

I heard this a while back and it changed my perspective a lot. It was basically that we must understand all of Scriptures in light of who God is. Since God is a God of Truth, Love, and Justice, we can be assured that everyone will be given a fair shot and that God judges justly. I keep this in mind whenever I am conversing with non Christians and it brings me comfort. I hope it brings comfort to others as well.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

It’s not our job to judge and determine who will get to heaven. Pray for her. Daily if possible.

Don’t place limits on God’s mercy.

 

[Luke1983]

OK, I promised myself I wouldn’t start a homosexuality thread, but the woman who helps me take care of my guinea pigs (let’s call her “Colleen”–she helps me hold them still for nail trims, gives me general guinea pig advice, etc. every once in a while) is an openly practicing homosexual and a Buddhist, and my mom and I were talking about her. I said that Colleen is probably not going to make it into Heaven unless she repents, given 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (and the fact that homosexual acts are mortal sin). My mom said that since Colleen isn’t Christian and doesn’t know that homosexual acts are sin, she has invincible ignorance. I don’t think invincible ignorance applies to natural law, but I could be wrong.

Which one of us is right? If I’m right, does that mean I have to try to preach the Gospel to Colleen even though she can’t stand anything Christian (she doesn’t know we’re Catholic)? If my mom is right, then for what sins is ignorance no excuse?

P.S. If you don’t think homosexual acts are sin at all, then this thread is NOT for you.

this woman has become a buddhist because unlike religions like judaism/christianity/islam it doesn’t tell them they will go to hell for being an active homo. There is nothing much you can do. The only thing would be saying that God loves her its only the rabbis/priests/imams that preach against homosexuality. Not to much avail I suppose though…

anyway I don’t think she’ll ever convert precisely because of the stance on homosexuality. Maybe she’s jewish converted to buddhism. That would explain her total aversion to christianity and her conversion to buddhism which teaches on reincarnation a concept which some rabbis preach. Even steve jobs is a buddhist convert from judaism…

Try asking her why she hates christianity so much. And try to tell her more about God’s love than hell, punishment, sins etc. She’s never going to convert otherwise but hate the religion ever more.

 

[debraran]

I will never understand homosexuality (a question that will have to wait) but I have known so many working in a large city and hospital. Most are good people and I can’t preach to them, some are doing more to help others than some “good Catholics”. They wont understand a religion, at least right now, that says what they feel is wrong. I pray for them, but wont argue.
I have also read many NDE (near death expeiences) that were also from gay men and women that seem very similar to Christian NDE’s and Muslim NDE’s. They had the light, saw relatives, some they “knew” but didn’t know on earth, some were less depressed and were full of joy on returning, but none felt wrath. Some saw the hurt they did, some had knowledge for a short time of things they didn’t know.
This doesn’t mean it is accepted, I am not saying that, no one has to believe any NDE’s, whether from adults or children, although some good books from doctor’s are out there.
I just believe some of all of this is beyond our limited understanding and I pray that there is salvation for anyone who loves God and others.

 

[tafan]

I like Jimmy Atkins answer about invinsible ignorance. It can apply to natural law, because we can be blinded to natural law due to our mal-formed consciences and the culture we may find ourselves in. The part about “gravity of the question” is key. THere are just too many people who don’t even understand the gravity of the questions today to seriously seek the correct answer. I doubt if they will be found at fault for many sins, in our day and age, at judgement time; they have been blinded by our corrupt culture.

Some natural law, people will find in their hearts, even in this day and age; for instance murder, stealing, lying. Some natural law, possibly the one in question of this thread, some people will not find; they don’t know to look. But that is just a guess, it is depended on their heart and God.

Perhaps God has given then the actual graces to know what they are doing is wrong, but they have made a decision to block out that knowledge; then it would not apply.

You often hear people say things along the lines of “I rather not know about moral laws, then I am not culpable”,or similiar sentiments. I would hate to be in that situation and have to rely on a mal-formed conscience and no guidance; it would just be luck or not, if we would truly be invinsibly ignorant in our hearts; due to our fallen nature. Who knows how we would lie to ourselves.

 

[mathematoons]

Now that this is out of the way, homosexual acts are a blatant, clear violation of the laws of nature as well as the law of God… That is perfectly obvious to anybody who objectively looks at how the body is designed to work.

That’s what I thought.

We live in a sick, twisted, perverse society that loves indoctrinating its members to believe that up is down, right is wrong, and wrong is right. This indoctrination of society regarding the tolerance, no, acceptance and embrace, or the perversion of homosexuality has been going on for at least the past 40 years. So if she had any pangs of conscience, those pangs could very rapidly be blunted by parents, friends, psychologists, school counselors, and, unfortunately, even by a large number of “Christian” ministers.

And if that happens, her culpability could be mitigated…not from invincible ignorance but from the lack of ability to make free and full consent.

I understand what you’re saying, but I’m not sure about it.

God flooded the entire world because everyone except Noah and his family were wicked, and later, He nuked Sodom and Gomorrah (I’ve always pictured a nuclear blast from the description) for the same reason–and homosexual acts have been called “the sin of Sodom,” which is where we get our word “sodomy.” Where would the lack of free and full consent have played there?

And what about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10? The Corinthians were a sexually immoral culture, just like modern America, and yet Paul told them that practicing homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven–no invincible ignorance here!

And what am I supposed to do with 2 Peter 3:3-7?

Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come to scoff, living according to their own desires and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation.” They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless.

I’m not trying to argue; I just don’t understand how invincible ignorance can contradict Scripture.

Is it our place to make a determination of who is going to hell? That is God’s job, not ours. We should have confidence in the mercy of God and pray for the conversion of sinners, not make declarations of who is populating and going to populate hell.

That’s true, but there are some people I just can’t picture in Heaven–people like Hitler, for example.

Frankly, myself, I would be more concerned that she is a Buddhist at this juncture than anything else. If she is an apostate from Christianity (whether Catholic, Orthodox, or some heretical innovation), that is particularly of concern.

I would submit to you that the best course of action would be to be the light of the world to her (Phil 2:15) and to allow the Holy Spirit to melt her heart. You say that she can’t stand anything Christian, perhaps that is as the result of some bad experience. Not standing anything Christian is not the typical Buddhist attitude I’ve see in my limited experience. If you know her well enough, you might consider asking her in conversation why she has such a distaste. But before you do, you may wish to consider the following:
[bibledrb]1 Pet 3:15[/bibledrb]

Unfortunately, I don’t know her well enough. Part of the problem with that is that 1) she’s my mom’s customer (my mom works as a hairdresser) and 2) she doesn’t charge us. If I offend her, then my mom will lose a customer (which we can’t really afford right now), and I’ll have to pay someone if I want help with the guinea pigs (again, money’s a huge issue). I have family harmony and finances to think about as well.

But that’s interesting about how her attitude is not typical of Buddhists.

I will never understand homosexuality (a question that will have to wait) but I have known so many working in a large city and hospital. Most are good people and I can’t preach to them, some are doing more to help others than some “good Catholics”. They wont understand a religion, at least right now, that says what they feel is wrong. I pray for them, but wont argue.

If you had kids who were good and followed all your rules except one major rule that they stubbornly refused to follow, what would you think?

I have also read many NDE (near death expeiences) that were also from gay men and women that seem very similar to Christian NDE’s and Muslim NDE’s. They had the light, saw relatives, some they “knew” but didn’t know on earth, some were less depressed and were full of joy on returning, but none felt wrath. Some saw the hurt they did, some had knowledge for a short time of things they didn’t know.

Then that alone makes me question the validity of NDEs, because that is in direct violation of Scripture. This, in turn, violates Galatians 1:8, because in a case like that, an angel from Heaven is preaching a new Gospel and so must be condemned. Have you ever noticed that the only person who ever saw Hell in a NDE was Bill Wiese, author of 23 Minutes In Hell?

I’ve read that people improve after NDEs, so maybe those are just visions from God designed to help them become better people. Did you know that most Muslims who become Christian do so because of a Christian or because of a vision? (Source: The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel)

 

[smichhertz]

Hi mathmetoons!

This line of thought could lead you to a dangerous place. It is not for us to judge, only for God. ESPECIALLY when you are dealing with a specific person. You should pray for her, evangelize to her, do everything you can for her. But we cannot know nor should we try to know anyone’s eternal fate.

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 7:1[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[tafan]

It would be assumes, if invinsible ignorance applies, that the individuals do not know the scriptures and/or do not know to take them seriously.

I think we should be careful in using the flood or Sodom/Gomorrah destruction as a guideline in this case. We simply don’t know how God judge the individual members of those societies culpable. What we know is that he judged the societies themselves as deserving of destruction. These are two different things. The people were wicked, we know that. But were they individually culpable or not? We don’t know this.

So although God destoryed the societies, as undeserving of life on this earth, irredeemable, whatever. We could still very much hope for the individuals. The Church does not declare the members of these destroyed societies condemned to hell.

 

[debraran]

Re NDE’s, working in a hospital, I trust ones from people or children that didn’t have time to think or plan what to see, who really were dead, If they see things they didn’t know about, see things on shelves in the OR, remember conversations, then yes, it wasn’t just a brain short-circuiting. Why they see what they see varies, some don’t change religions, some just become more devout, less afraid or less stressed.
If a gay man or women doesn’t see hell, doesn’t see wrath, it doesn’t mean it’s not real, you can’t pick and choose, but I don’t think God hates the person, it’s not black and white, it’s always grey. It’s easier to teach black and white.

I don’t understand NDE or when someone sees someone that died or has an experience that they feel was their way of communicating to them. Jesus said you would be surprised who was there and not there, I would never, ever, even come close to guessing.

 

[debraran]

This theme I have seen countless times, gay, straight or confused and it makes sense.

This woman was gay, but this part of her story is good for everyone to remember:

I came to a place, maybe a room maybe a space. I was shown my life. If it was my entire life. I do not remember all of it. The only part that I remember now was just the last week or so. Since I had given up on God. I saw how selfish I had been. I felt the pain I had caused one person in particular and it bothered me very much. The things I had the most guilt for was hurting other people, lying, not being sensitive to their feelings, just being selfish. The fact that I was a lesbian didn’t even seem to matter then. That was surprising to me, given what I had been brought up to believe.

Another gay male said something similar, the choices, repercussions of his actions and how they touched others seemed to be very important and not who he was sexually. You again, can discount it, I don’t think of NDE’s as biblical, but I do find many interactions with people who have had them, interesting.

 

[Jim_Roberts]

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual variations

The number of men and women who have deep-seated tendencies in not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual conditions; for most of them it is a trial. They must be attempted with respect, compassion, and sesitivity

If one is a homosexual, he or she is called to chastity Just because one is homosexual does not give them permission to engage in this activity,The C hurch has always taught that homosexual tendencies is not a sin; but the actions are The are to live chaste as an unmarried couple.

By prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Let’s not presume all homosexuals go to hell. I am not their judge, but as concured previously, they are to live a chaste life like any unamaried person.

Let God judge them because he can read their mind and hearts. Why not offere up a prayer or your COmmunion for a homosexual you know?

–Jim Roberts

 

[debraran]

I didn’t think Catholics believed they were all destined to hell, only “born again” types. I’ll stay ignorant on that, I know they believe it’s not natural, the act of having sex wrong, but that they were destined to hell, well, God knows what they feel, what they can understand, as I said before, judging others is wrong.

Even criminals might be in his grace if they were given little in life, no love, no God, no anything. If they commit awful crimes are they fully culpable? If someone with more does, is he more so? A priest on EWTN said you never should assume anything, God obviously understands his interpetation of the bible the best.

 

[mathematoons]

I guess all that makes sense. Thank you all for your help.

But then how am I to understand 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?

 

[markomalley]

I understand what you’re saying, but I’m not sure about it.

Understand, though, I am not saying invincibly ignorant. My line of thinking is that her personal culpability (as in her state of mortal sin) could be mitigated due to lack of being able to make a free choice, due to being brainwashed by all the various forces in today’s society.

That’s true, but there are some people I just can’t picture in Heaven–people like Hitler, for example.

Agreed. I have no problem calling him a monster and one of the most evil people in history. But how do either of us know that, in the time between when he pulled the trigger and his brain function ceasing that he could not have been given the grace to plead for mercy.

I will fully admit that it is highly unlikely that he did so. Infinitesimal probability. But I don’t know for sure. That’s why I have a hard time consigning specific individuals to hell.

Yes, in general, I am confident that hell is very well populated. But I would truly hesitate to name names, that’s all I’m saying.

But that’s interesting about how her attitude is not typical of Buddhists.

The buddhists I have met throughout my life have been, in general, fairly easy going about religion. As long as you don’t try to shove it down their throats. But if you live in the SF area, it’s likely that you have a greater exposure than I do, so your mileage may vary.

 

[mathematoons]

Understand, though, I am not saying invincibly ignorant. My line of thinking is that her personal culpability (as in her state of mortal sin) could be mitigated due to lack of being able to make a free choice, due to being brainwashed by all the various forces in today’s society.

I guess that makes sense. But I was brainwashed by our modern relativistic culture, and I somehow knew that sex outside marriage wasn’t right even before I became Catholic.

Agreed. I have no problem calling him a monster and one of the most evil people in history. But how do either of us know that, in the time between when he pulled the trigger and his brain function ceasing that he could not have been given the grace to plead for mercy.

It’s incomprehensible to me that Hitler could have gotten out of Hell for repenting in those final seconds.

Yes, in general, I am confident that hell is very well populated. But I would truly hesitate to name names, that’s all I’m saying.

OK, that makes sense.

The buddhists I have met throughout my life have been, in general, fairly easy going about religion. As long as you don’t try to shove it down their throats. But if you live in the SF area, it’s likely that you have a greater exposure than I do, so your mileage may vary.

Around here, most Buddhists you meet are white American converts who chose Buddhism because it allows them to keep their liberal views and any sins that allows.