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markomalley
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Bingo!!!
Likely as authentic to actual Buddhism as Farrakhan’s group is to actual Islam.
Homosexuals and the afterlife
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Likely as authentic to actual Buddhism as Farrakhan’s group is to actual Islam.
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EasterJoy
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I don’t know…do you think all of the alcoholics are going to hell, too? Or do you think St. Paul was talking about what is and is not a mortal sin? Speaking of drunkards, we had better not think that everyone who is called a drunkard shall be judged the same way by Heaven. As for the “sin of Sodom”, too, do not think that you know all of that tale, either. We have not come to the day of reckoning, and that much is clear from what the Lord said:
“To what shall I compare this generation? It is like children who sit in marketplaces and call to one another, ‘We played the flute for you, but you did not dance, we sang a dirge but you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they said, ‘He is possessed by a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said, ‘Look,* he is a glutton and a drunkard*, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is vindicated by her works.”
Then he began to reproach the towns where most of his mighty deeds had been done, since they had not repented. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And as for you, Capernaum: ‘Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.’ For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Matt. 11:16-24
The Lord did not re-define what was and wasn’t a sin in the sexual realm, but he was the hardest on those who did not act as if they were in need of mercy. That much should not be forgotten.
mathematoons
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Again, how am I to understand the passage? Don’t mortal sins land a person in Hell unless they repent?
Aren’t unrepentant sinners the ones who don’t act as if they’re in need of mercy? I don’t get it.
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EasterJoy
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No. You can’t tell from how a person acts on the outside what the disposition of their heart is. A person can act contrite, but actually only desire to be respectable and acceptable. Conversely, a person can act as if they are in love with their bad behavior, when the truth is that they don’t know how to stop, or don’t think they have the strength to stop. They don’t try because they are too afraid they are doomed to fail. They may also identify so strongly with their sin–I am a drunkard, I am a thief, I am a hit man, I am a whore–that they don’t think repentance even applies to them.
Those are just a few of the ways in which outward appearances can fool us. The twofold job of evangelization isn’t just to warn people of what is a sin and what are the wages of sin. The more important task is this: To give witness to the truth that the Good News actually is Good News, that the person is deeply loved, that life in the Spirit is the deepest desire of his or her heart, that God will exhaust no effort to reclaim him or her, will not be discouraged by any amount of failure if the person but desires to cooperate with a relationship with God, and, among other things, that it is never too late to repent and choose to start truly living.
After all, if you re-read that passage, this ought to strike you: It is aimed at those who are already won to belief in Christ, but have not yet left their former way of life behind. It is not permission to judge others, but a spur to Christians who have received the Good News, to truly live the life they have chosen. I think that is how we are to understand it.
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Elizabeth502
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(1) No one knows what occurs between any of us sinners and the infinte mercy of God, as we pass from this life into the next. The Church herself does not pretend to know that, including whether the person appeared unrepentant at the moment of death.
(2) We can never presume (compare) God’s judgment of each of us, versus those who appear to lead “more sinful” lives. A secular but wondeful movie in this regard – really blew me away in its spiritual accuracy when I saw it recently – is an old movie from the '40’s called Between Two Worlds. It’s essentially the dramatization of a number of Particular Judgments after some kind of a crash, going into a “room” to have their lives reviewed by a character played by Sydney Greenstreet. I don’t remember all the particulars of the lives, except that two stand out: A presumptuous woman who is fixated on how superior she is to others (she is told she is going to Hell, and she is incredulous about that, because she was convinced about who was going to Hell, and it wasn’t her), and a humble, ordinary man who worries that he never did anything spectacularly wonderful to deserve Heaven. He is told that he is being rewarded for his simplicity, joy, and living life with fullness of gratitude. The words Heaven and Hell are not used, but there’s no mystery about the allusions.
I also think I recall in the movie that altruism was rewarded. Homosexuals are among those who show altruism and compassion, just as there are those among them who live hedonistic lives as many heterosexual fornicators and adulterers do.
(3) God will judge us individually according to the opportunties we have had to respond to his graces. (That’s another important point in the movie.) From whom much has been given, much will be expected – including if we respond in a petty way to abundant graces. We don’t have to worry about what anybody else has or has not been given, how they do or do not respond. We don’t know if/how/when they will respond. We may have plenty to answer for!
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Yes, but that repentance can occur silently at the moment of death. No one else is privy to that relationship between a sinner (us!) and God’s mercy. That is classic Catholic theology.
They could act that way much of their lives, virtually all of their lives, but again we do not know what kind of private encounter may occur with them and God at or just before death.
Generally, it’s not a good idea, for those of us who do know how we should behave, to play roulette with God’s mercy. That would be a dangerous form of presumption. That’s why we should always be as ready as we can be to meet our moment of death; we never know when that will come. Those who lead sexually pure lives may have plenty of different sins to answer for.
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JohnMPhilomena
Guest
Yes - we should approach our salvation with “fear and trembling” - Never presuming we are saved and never assuming others are damned.
(1) No one knows what occurs between any of us sinners and the infinte mercy of God, as we pass from this life into the next. The Church herself does not pretend to know that, including whether the person appeared unrepentant at the moment of death.
(2) We can never presume (compare) God’s judgment of each of us, versus those who appear to lead “more sinful” lives. A secular but wondeful movie in this regard – really blew me away in its spiritual accuracy when I saw it recently – is an old movie from the '40’s called Between Two Worlds. It’s essentially the dramatization of a number of Particular Judgments after some kind of a crash, going into a “room” to have their lives reviewed by a character played by Sydney Greenstreet. I don’t remember all the particulars of the lives, except that two stand out: A presumptuous woman who is fixated on how superior she is to others (she is told she is going to Hell, and she is incredulous about that, because she was convinced about who was going to Hell, and it wasn’t her), and a humble, ordinary man who worries that he never did anything spectacularly wonderful to deserve Heaven. He is told that he is being rewarded for his simplicity, joy, and living life with fullness of gratitude. The words Heaven and Hell are not used, but there’s no mystery about the allusions.
I also think I recall in the movie that altruism was rewarded. Homosexuals are among those who show altruism and compassion, just as there are those among them who live hedonistic lives as many heterosexual fornicators and adulterers do.
(3) God will judge us individually according to the opportunties we have had to respond to his graces. (That’s another important point in the movie.) From whom much has been given, much will be expected – including if we respond in a petty way to abundant graces. We don’t have to worry about what anybody else has or has not been given, how they do or do not respond. We don’t know if/how/when they will respond. We may have plenty to answer for!
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sw85
Guest
Obviously, it is not for anyone in this thread to determine how she will be judged.
But the facts seem clear insofar as what has been revealed to us is an accurate indicator of the state of one’s soul. Homosexuality is a mortal sin: it subverts the procreative purpose of the sexual act and is therefore contrary to natural law. And her aversion to Christianity (presumably because they regard her lifestyle as disordered) suggests she is not, in fact, invincibly ignorant. She has access to the truth but refuses to avail herself of it. I cannot see that her obstinate refusal to sustain a moral inquiry into her own behavior could mitigate her sin; if anything, she appears to be deliberately cloaking herself in ignorance. This could very well amplify her sin.
You do, I think, have an obligation to evangelize her. It may be difficult to do so, however, if she is as hateful of the Church as you suggest. It is very possible, given some people’s aversion to anything resembling being “judged,” that you will lose her friendship if you try.
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dailey
Guest
Regarding NDE, I sometimes wonder if the devil doesn’t have something to do with what a person encounters?
It would most certainly be in his best interest to fool the person into believing that being gay, etc. is “no big deal”.
It would most certainly be in his best interest to fool the person into believing that being gay, etc. is “no big deal”.
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Ahimsa
Guest
It’s often the case that those averse to Christianity are indeed invincibly ignorant, because their negative experiences with Christians, leads them to interpret Christianity in a negative fashion. If someone, say, is homosexual, and have been looked down upon, criticized, attacked, or what not, by a Christian or two, their view of Christianity will be understandably skewed.
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MontJ
Guest
God knows their hearts… He knows what they would have done if they knew the truth…
mathematoons
New member
Great. Given all the conflicting answers, I know even less than I thought I knew before I asked the question… 
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