Homosexuals and the Holy Eucharist

[goofyjim]

Journeyer11,
I understand what you are trying to convey by referring to personal experience and suggesting that other’s try to put themselves in your place. I think we all do that, to the extent that we can, by applying our own personal experiences which may be similar. While there are some who may never personally experience SSA on any level, one can understand the difficulties associated with this cross by reflecting on their own disordered tendencies or desires. While it’s not a perfect comparison, I don’t believe that is necessary to experience exactly the same situations for one to feel empathy.

In addition, I don’t accept your premise that just because you lived through the experience of pre-pubescent SSA that makes you the final authority. When we are that young, it is nealy impossible to fully comprehend what exactly is happening with our psychological and psychosexual development. We may form opinions and ideas in early childhood that are completely disassociated from the reality of the situation. For example, a child who is abused may feel that they are to blame. Children of divorce think they were the cause of their parent’s unhappiness. Kids who grow up in alcoholic homes often believe if they love their parents enough they will quit drinking. It often takes an outside source to help us understand why and how we formed concepts early in life and whether they are an accurate understanding of our experiences. Psychiatrists who treat folks with mental disorders do not have to experience them to understand them and offer help. Doctors who have never had cancer can understand, feel empathy for, and treat those who do.

Personally I don’t trust psychiatrists or psychologists.

 

[blessedtoo]

I found your post very interesting. Thanks for answering my questions. First let me say, you said awhile back that you are living chastly and its not so bad. Keep in mind one point I’m trying to make is that at least you’ve been married and you have a child. So, you have a family. A gay person will never have that. There is a big lonliness there. You are a mother, someday you’ll be a grandmother. There is possibly a much more complete life there.

“It’s not so bad” is not what I said. In fact, it is a blessing. God has given me the gift of freeing me from the obsessive quest for romantic and sexual love. I prayed for this because I understood this to be my vocation and realized that I couldn’t do it on my own. I asked the Father for help, and he gave it in abundance. I thank Him everyday that He has spared me an even greater cross.

“At least I’ve been married” is a meaningless statement when put into context. Since you can’t know the specifics of anyone’s personal experience, you are romanticizing a concept. The truth can be quite the opposite. In my case, being married is a cross, just as you remaining chaste may be your cross.

But upon reading it again, I noticed in all your expamples, your friends started out with the opposite sex and ended up with their own sex. Couldn’t this be because they were repressing these urges?? You wrote it as they “decided” or they “discovered” they were gay. Blessedtoo, I assure you they didn’t. They knew… They knew from a young age, and if you asked them to be honest about it, I bet that’s what they’d tell you. My guess is that your friends were trying to live the right way (OSA) but in the end couldn’t. It went against their nature.

In the case of my sister, she truly did “discover” in her 40’s that she was “gay”. The truth is she was simply “anti-male” and made more of a political decision than a moral one. With all the others I mentioned, they did have experience of SSA but also with OSA. The latter was perhaps not the dominant attraction, but was present enough and strong enough for them to persue relationships with opposite sex partners. If it was so apallingly against their “nature”, how could they have managed it?

There are countless things that go against our nature. It is most decidely against my nature to get up at 6AM, shower, dress and spend 10 hours a day in a place other than my home. It is against my nature to bite my tongue when someone says something hurtful or spiteful. It is against my nature to stop drinking when I’ve had enough. The point is our nature is FALLEN. We must strive to achieve mastery over our fallen nature.

This is the danger of telling SSA people to try to live OSA…to try and live straight. Many do, and eventually hurt others they were married to… Don’t ya think?

I would NEVER tell an SSA person to try to live OSA. That was not my point with my post. I am simply making the point that acting on one’s SSA is a choice. My examples were also meant to illustrate that very often folks with SSA have made the conscious decision to choose one sex over another.

 

[Journeyer11]

Hi Blessedtoo,

I agree with you about not having to personally experience something to show empathy, but my comment and scenario was directed at those who seem to have no empathy, not those who do. It was an attempt to get them to think and see where I was coming from.

I also agree that Doctors and Psychiatrists do not need to experience mental disorders to treat patients. Again, my comment was directed toward someone that I don’t ‘think’ is a doctor. And if someone does not have that medical background and training, they really shouldn’t speak as if they did. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[Journeyer11]

Yes Goofyjim you have spoken from the heart, and that’s fine. The fact that you don’t feel lonely is great. Perhaps, that will happen to me also and will maintain a chaste lifestyle. Reasonably, I don’t know that that will happen, but then we all know how faith can conquer reason. (So keep your fingers crossed! lol)

Also, I admire your commitment to a chaste lifestyle.

I don’t know though that I’d agree with your claim that diseases show the lifestyle to be ‘unnatural.’ That’s an easy assumtion to make, but then how do you account for birth defects in children of married couples? (Not saying you’re wrong here, I just don’t know.)

 

[goofyjim]

Although it hasn’t been done in this thread, as far as I know, I do get upset with those who too often connect homosexuality with pedophilia. They present the statistics as though those with same gender attraction have a higher preponderance to be pedophiles. They don’t. Otherwise we would have to prevent them from walking the streets.

 

[Journeyer11]

I agree…But, why bring it up??

 

[sacredcello]

Although it hasn’t been done in this thread, as far as I know, I do get upset with those who too often connect homosexuality with pedophilia. They present the statistics as though those with same gender attraction have a higher preponderance to be pedophiles. They don’t. Otherwise we would have to prevent them from walking the streets.

Yes, I agree completely.

We had a very sad and tragic thing happen at our parish two years ago. Our brilliant Music Director was fired by the pastor because there were discovered nude photos of him on a gay dating website. This was a totally unnecessary action…the photos were on a private website to which one had to be a member of in order to view. Our best guess is that another gay musician who was jealous of his position gave these to the staff at our church. To add insult to injury, the pastor announced the firing during Sunday Mass and at the same time, announced that one of the pedophile priests in the infirmary was going to be moved to another diocese. It clearly linked the two events which had nothing to do with one another. The choir was outraged and still has not really recovered.

To link this to our current thread…our former music director was catholic, living on openly gay lifestyle and did not receive the Eucharist on a weekly basis. We all had the highest respect for his genius which contributed so much to the liturgy and opened hearts to God.

Now we have a gay music director who feels justified in his lifestyle, receives the Eucharist each week and is certain that anyone who thinks otherwise must be narrowminded.

 

[setter]

Setter,

I posed a thoughtful question to you (to illustrate a point) and asked you to put yourself in the situation to see how you’d feel (putting the religious aspect aside) and you couldn’t even do that. Why did I ask you to put the religious aspect aside? Because I know the church answer on this… I don’t need you to demonstrate your knowledge of it… I’m all too familiar with church teaching on the subject. But you couldn’t even do it… Instead, you can only quote the Catechism. I refer to below:

<<<Question for you to think about. (I assume you are not gay…) Put the religious aspect aside for a moment. Could you ever see yourself being intimate with and marrying a man instead of a woman?? Probably not…And why not? You have free will…Coulnd’t you try it?? No, you couldn’t because that’s not part of your make up…Not part of your nature…Nature is a powerful force. If its not in your nature to do something, (or let’s say if that nature is disordered…) You can’t simply use free will to make those choices.>>>

If you were really interested in thinking about what I said above and engaging in a dialogue, your answer would have either been “Yes, I if I wanted to, I could explore a relatioinship with another man” or “No, I could never do that.” What’s so hard about giving a direct answer to a question? Must all your answers quote the Catechism and Church teaching? Which again, I already know.

Here is a direct answer to your question: No I could not …why? Simply because I recognize and accept that to do so is gravely disordered and serious, if not mortal, sin.

You didn’t even give an answer on whether or not you suffer from SSA. The reason an answer here is important is because you ARE very knowledgeable of church teaching, and it would give a perspective as to where you are coming from? Single people, married people, divorced people, SSA people all come from a different perspective.

Again, chastity is a positive choice for every person, whether for religious or personal health reasons. My state of life does not change this. The choices we face and the answers at hand are not all that complicated …it is our unredeemed fallen human nature and secular/“worldly” culture tends to complicate issues.

<<< I posted in response to the over simplistic and assumption laden presentation of another poster that left the impression that SSA onsets and is a foregone conclusion before an individual begins puberty – this has all the tracings of the “gay agenda”.>>>>

I believe I WAS the poster you wrote the above to. And I’ve explained, from a PERSONAL perspective how it can be traced back to as young as 3rd grade. Since I have personally lived it, and you have just “read” about it. Who do you think might know more on the subject?

See “my point” from my previous post. Btw – It was a different poster than you that I responded to.

You have a great committment to the Catholic faith, and a great knowledge of scripture and teachings, etc. But you must listen to people, and respond as a person not a textbook. That’s what dialogue is about.

I attempt to speak with the mind of the Church (hence my citations) …not everyone wants to hear what the Church has to say. If the truth, as found in natural and revealed moral law, is excluded from understanding personal subjective experience, then one can basically create and rationalize whatever reality they desire (science included).

 

[setter]

To link this to our current thread…our former music director was catholic, living on openly gay lifestyle and did not receive the Eucharist on a weekly basis. We all had the highest respect for his genius which contributed so much to the liturgy and opened hearts to God.

Now we have a gay music director who feels justified in his lifestyle, receives the Eucharist each week and is certain that anyone who thinks otherwise must be narrowminded.

If this is true, then they both are unfit to serve in the capacity of music director for any Catholic parish.

 

[sacredcello]

If this is true, then they both are unfit to serve in the capacity of music director for any Catholic parish.

Perhaps so, but our previous music director brought such significant musical talent and knowledge of the history of the church and the liturgy… His private life had nothing to do with the parish. We all loved him, even though he was quite demanding to work with.

Now the new guy has his boyfriend singing in the choir as a paid cantor. He is, of course, qualified for the job and they are both very nice people. I feel bad even writing this. But, now that the boyfriend is part of our music ministry, it is right in our face. Though, I think that I am the only one who is concerned. As I’ve said in an earlier poster, the sitation has created an unwholesome environment… a moral decline to say the least.

It’s fine to say these folks are unfit. But, they were chosen as the most qualified candidates. Also, our pastoral associate at the time of their hiring was a woman with strong feminist agendas, including removing language that refers to God as “Him” or “He” whenever possible. So, there was a certain leniency towards gays (laypeople, not clergy) working in our parish.

I honestly don’t know what to do, except hold my tongue and smile.

 

[setter]

Perhaps so, but our previous music director brought such significant musical talent and knowledge of the history of the church and the liturgy… His private life had nothing to do with the parish. We all loved him, even though he was quite demanding to work with.

This is one of the myths and lies being spread these days. Do you not agree that anyone in a public ministry should be just wering the faith, but also walking the faith?

Now the new guy has his boyfriend singing in the choir as a paid cantor. He is, of course, qualified for the job and they are both very nice people. I feel bad even writing this. But, now that the boyfriend is part of our music ministry, it is right in our face. Though, I think that I am the only one who is concerned. As I’ve said in an earlier poster, the sitation has created an unwholesome environment… a moral decline to say the least.

…and you stand idly by? …I suggest that you take a lesson from St. Paul of what a holy response should be. Darkness has no place with light.

It’s fine to say these folks are unfit. But, they were chosen as the most qualified candidates. Also, our pastoral associate at the time of their hiring was a woman with strong feminist agendas, including removing language that refers to God as “Him” or “He” whenever possible. So, there was a certain leniency towards gays (laypeople, not clergy) working in our parish.

Again: Your response?

I honestly don’t know what to do, except hold my tongue and smile.

This is a pathetic response.

 

[sacredcello]

This is one of the myths and lies being spread these days. Do you not agree that anyone in a public ministry should be just wering the faith, but also walking the faith?

…and you stand idly by? …I suggest that you take a lesson from St. Paul of what a holy response should be. Darkness has no place with light.

Again: Your response?

This is a pathetic response.

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, those in ministry should be walking the faith, not just paying lipservice. However, these folks have real gifts for the music ministry in which they are serving. They are not catechists, but musicians. Professional ones.

Where does one draw the line? As I said earlier, it is not only the Music Director, but also the other cantors (who happen to consider themselves Catholic) who are OSA and fornicating, etc. I could go into detail about their lives…it really doesn’t matter. The point is, we can’t go on a witchhunt for anyone who is commiting sin and have them fired. We are all sinners. Jesus told us to remove the beam from our own eye before the splinter in the eye of our neighbor.

Prayer for these friends/sinners is a good response. But, the situation still makes me sad.

 

[goofyjim]

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, those in ministry should be walking the faith, not just paying lipservice. However, these folks have real gifts for the music ministry in which they are serving. They are not catechists, but musicians. Professional ones.

Where does one draw the line? As I said earlier, it is not only the Music Director, but also the other cantors (who happen to consider themselves Catholic) who are OSA and fornicating, etc. I could go into detail about their lives…it really doesn’t matter. The point is, we can’t go on a witchhunt for anyone who is commiting sin and have them fired. We are all sinners. Jesus told us to remove the beam from our own eye before the splinter in the eye of our neighbor.

Prayer for these friends/sinners is a good response. But, the situation still makes me sad.

Which is why I said awhile back we’re all on the honor system. Unless there are mindreaders out there.

 

[PauloFreire2]

I say get up there and recieve it…now!

 

[sacredcello]

I say get up there and recieve it…now!

huh?

 

[PauloFreire2]

The Eucharist, man…the Eucharist for gays.:crying:

 

[goofyjim]

The Eucharist, man…the Eucharist for gays.:crying:

Only if they remain celibate. Otherwise they cannot remain in the One Body Jesus promised because they are not keeping His commands.

 

[setter]

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, those in ministry should be walking the faith, not just paying lipservice. However, these folks …

Where does one draw the line?

Where there is enough evidence to cause distraction or scandal to the flock and to directly confront such individuals.

As I said earlier, it is not only the Music Director, but also the other cantors (who happen to consider themselves Catholic) who are OSA and fornicating, etc. I could go into detail about their lives…it really doesn’t matter. The point is, we can’t go on a witchhunt for anyone who is commiting sin and have them fired.

If you know, then others in the parish know, which is then public information. I am not sure why you believe that this then becomes a witch hunt.

We are all sinners. Jesus told us to remove the beam from our own eye before the splinter in the eye of our neighbor.

You stop short of presenting the whole gospel message of salvation calling for repentance in order to receive the saving redemption of Christ’s blood:

“For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.” Romans 3: 22-25

“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5: 32

Prayer for these friends/sinners is a good response. But, the situation still makes me sad.

This is an inadequate response, IMHO. You know that a present darkness occupies the choir loft, yet you allow this to go on unopposed. Take a lesson from St. Paul who made no bones about exposing darkness:

“And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But fornication and **all impurity **or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. Let there be no filthiness, nor silly talk, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them, for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.” Ephesians 5: 2-13

 

[Abira]

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. Ephesians 5: 2-13

If the church helps them live a good life it is not promoting or taking part in any darkness… it is exposing them to light

It is what we are called to do, to bring light and help people live a good life. How can you do that if they are excluded. If they are celibate there is no issue. If they are not celibate then there is no issue either as no one who consistently sins can be included in that way…surely you don’t need two sets of rules!!

S

 

[setter]

**If **the church helps them live a good life it is not promoting or taking part in any darkness… it is exposing them to light

It is what we are called to do, to bring light and help people live a good life. How can you do that if they are excluded. If they are celibate there is no issue. **If **they are not celibate then there is no issue either as no one who consistently sins can be included in that way…surely you don’t need two sets of rules!!

S

That is a alot of “if’s”. If you read the posts by sacredcello, there are no “if’s” about the situation described – these SSA afflicted men are unabashedly living a “gay” lifestyle that is an abomination before God, while being included in a prominent Church ministry explicitly having to do with the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

Originally Posted by sacredcello
Now the new guy has his boyfriend singing in the choir as a paid cantor. He is, of course, qualified for the job and they are both very nice people. I feel bad even writing this. But, now that the boyfriend is part of our music ministry, it is right in our face. Though, I think that I am the only one who is concerned. As I’ve said in an earlier poster, the sitation has created an unwholesome environment… a moral decline to say the least.

It’s fine to say these folks are unfit. But, they were chosen as the most qualified candidates. Also, our pastoral associate at the time of their hiring was a woman with strong feminist agendas, including removing language that refers to God as “Him” or “He” whenever possible. So, there was a certain leniency towards gays (laypeople, not clergy) working in our parish.

I honestly don’t know what to do, except hold my tongue and smile.