Homosexuals in the Church

[timrohr]

On March 17, a caller called into Catholic Answers and asked what could be done about the growing presence of homosexuals in the Church. Unfortunately, her question was misunderstood by the hosts and their answer, I thought, was a little dismissive.

What she was really asking about, and if she wasn’t - I’ll ask it, is what can be done about those who are either practicing homosexuals or at minimum “giving cause for scandal” who are in positions of authority or prominent ministries within the Church.

I recently went through an inquisition of sorts by some of our local clergy for raising the question. I was given the standard “we should not judge”, etc.

That’s fine. I’m old enough not to judge. My children are not. What they see is someone on the altar, in charge of a youth group, teaching CCD, etc., who at least appears to be gay in his dress, mannerisms, etc.

He may very well be living a chaste life style, just as I, if I was single, could be living with a woman but not engaging in sex, could in fact be chaste, but at the same time “giving cause for scandal” - a sin that is little referenced today.

My children also have had to endure questionable public displays of affection between these persons of questionable sexual orientation at Mass, and at parish functions.

As a parent I also have to be concerned about allowing my child to be in the care of such a person who openly displays homosexual mannerisms should they be in a group or class where he is the person in charge.

In short it’s an act of injustice to parents and children to put persons of questionable sexual orientation when that questionable sexual orientation is known to the pastor and is publicly noticeable.

Homosexuality is in fact “objectively disordered” whether or not one is in fact engaged in homosexual acts. We cannot know whether a person who displays noticeable homosexual mannerisms is actually engaged in homosexual acts. It is not our business.

But it is our business to protect our children from possible harm and as parents we must “err on the side of caution”. It seems though that church authorities put “open mindedness” and “benefit of the doubt” on the opposite side of caution and don’t even seem to entertain the question “what about the children?”.

That said, I want to make a general comment about CA Live. I’ve listened to it for 10 years, and it appears that some of the hosts may be “getting weary in well-doing”. It happens to all of us. But I can definitely see a harmful trend, for the hosts, for the listeners, and for the entire ministry if it is not remedied.

 

[Seno_Ryan]

On March 17, a caller called into Catholic Answers and asked what could be done about the growing presence of homosexuals in the Church. Unfortunately, her question was misunderstood by the hosts and their answer, I thought, was a little dismissive.

What she was really asking about, and if she wasn’t - I’ll ask it, is what can be done about those who are either practicing homosexuals or at minimum “giving cause for scandal” who are in positions of authority or prominent ministries within the Church.

I recently went through an inquisition of sorts by some of our local clergy for raising the question. I was given the standard “we should not judge”, etc.

That’s fine. I’m old enough not to judge. My children are not. What they see is someone on the altar, in charge of a youth group, teaching CCD, etc., who at least appears to be gay in his dress, mannerisms, etc.

He may very well be living a chaste life style, just as I, if I was single, could be living with a woman but not engaging in sex, could in fact be chaste, but at the same time “giving cause for scandal” - a sin that is little referenced today.

My children also have had to endure questionable public displays of affection between these persons of questionable sexual orientation at Mass, and at parish functions.

As a parent I also have to be concerned about allowing my child to be in the care of such a person who openly displays homosexual mannerisms should they be in a group or class where he is the person in charge.

In short it’s an act of injustice to parents and children to put persons of questionable sexual orientation when that questionable sexual orientation is known to the pastor and is publicly noticeable.

Homosexuality is in fact “objectively disordered” whether or not one is in fact engaged in homosexual acts. We cannot know whether a person who displays noticeable homosexual mannerisms is actually engaged in homosexual acts. It is not our business.

But it is our business to protect our children from possible harm and as parents we must “err on the side of caution”. It seems though that church authorities put “open mindedness” and “benefit of the doubt” on the opposite side of caution and don’t even seem to entertain the question “what about the children?”.

That said, I want to make a general comment about CA Live. I’ve listened to it for 10 years, and it appears that some of the hosts may be “getting weary in well-doing”. It happens to all of us. But I can definitely see a harmful trend, for the hosts, for the listeners, and for the entire ministry if it is not remedied.

I appreciate your courage undertaken to raise this issue. I agree that we as Church should be careful not to condone behaviours that would give rise to scandal. The Church has to be both Mother (loving and forgiving); and to instruct memebrs by word and deed what behaviours or acts are inconsistent with Church teaching. The difficult question is how to adhere to one without compromising the other. I believe that if someone is leading a life style that is totally contrary to Gospel for eg Homosexuality, fornication, adultery etc that person should not be allowed to hold certain positions in church groups unless he/she has repented and no longer adheres to that lifestyle.

 

[bluelake]

On March 17, a caller called into Catholic Answers and asked what could be done about the growing presence of homosexuals in the Church. Unfortunately, her question was misunderstood by the hosts and their answer, I thought, was a little dismissive.

What she was really asking about, and if she wasn’t - I’ll ask it, is what can be done about those who are either practicing homosexuals or at minimum “giving cause for scandal” who are in positions of authority or prominent ministries within the Church.

I recently went through an inquisition of sorts by some of our local clergy for raising the question. I was given the standard “we should not judge”, etc.

That’s fine. I’m old enough not to judge. My children are not. What they see is someone on the altar, in charge of a youth group, teaching CCD, etc., who at least appears to be gay in his dress, mannerisms, etc.

He may very well be living a chaste life style, just as I, if I was single, could be living with a woman but not engaging in sex, could in fact be chaste, but at the same time “giving cause for scandal” - a sin that is little referenced today.

My children also have had to endure questionable public displays of affection between these persons of questionable sexual orientation at Mass, and at parish functions.

As a parent I also have to be concerned about allowing my child to be in the care of such a person who openly displays homosexual mannerisms should they be in a group or class where he is the person in charge.

In short it’s an act of injustice to parents and children to put persons of questionable sexual orientation when that questionable sexual orientation is known to the pastor and is publicly noticeable.

Homosexuality is in fact “objectively disordered” whether or not one is in fact engaged in homosexual acts. We cannot know whether a person who displays noticeable homosexual mannerisms is actually engaged in homosexual acts. It is not our business.

But it is our business to protect our children from possible harm and as parents we must “err on the side of caution”. It seems though that church authorities put “open mindedness” and “benefit of the doubt” on the opposite side of caution and don’t even seem to entertain the question “what about the children?”.

That said, I want to make a general comment about CA Live. I’ve listened to it for 10 years, and it appears that some of the hosts may be “getting weary in well-doing”. It happens to all of us. But I can definitely see a harmful trend, for the hosts, for the listeners, and for the entire ministry if it is not remedied.

Homosexuals are sinners just like the rest of us. However, we as christians are called to repent. praciticing homosexuals should not be receiving the eucharist.
See Rom.1:26-32

bluelkae

 

[Soutane]

Nor should practising homosexuals be priests which has resulted in the scandal of hebephilia(Canadian terminology)or ephebophilia(American terminology) NOT paedophilia.

 

[zab]

On March 17, a caller called into Catholic Answers and asked what could be done about the growing presence of homosexuals in the Church. Unfortunately, her question was misunderstood by the hosts and their answer, I thought, was a little dismissive.

What she was really asking about, and if she wasn’t - I’ll ask it, is what can be done about those who are either practicing homosexuals or at minimum “giving cause for scandal” who are in positions of authority or prominent ministries within the Church.

I recently went through an inquisition of sorts by some of our local clergy for raising the question. I was given the standard “we should not judge”, etc.

That’s fine. I’m old enough not to judge. My children are not. What they see is someone on the altar, in charge of a youth group, teaching CCD, etc., who at least appears to be gay in his dress, mannerisms, etc.

He may very well be living a chaste life style, just as I, if I was single, could be living with a woman but not engaging in sex, could in fact be chaste, but at the same time “giving cause for scandal” - a sin that is little referenced today.

My children also have had to endure questionable public displays of affection between these persons of questionable sexual orientation at Mass, and at parish functions.

As a parent I also have to be concerned about allowing my child to be in the care of such a person who openly displays homosexual mannerisms should they be in a group or class where he is the person in charge.

In short it’s an act of injustice to parents and children to put persons of questionable sexual orientation when that questionable sexual orientation is known to the pastor and is publicly noticeable.

Homosexuality is in fact “objectively disordered” whether or not one is in fact engaged in homosexual acts. We cannot know whether a person who displays noticeable homosexual mannerisms is actually engaged in homosexual acts. It is not our business.

But it is our business to protect our children from possible harm and as parents we must “err on the side of caution”. It seems though that church authorities put “open mindedness” and “benefit of the doubt” on the opposite side of caution and don’t even seem to entertain the question “what about the children?”.

That said, I want to make a general comment about CA Live. I’ve listened to it for 10 years, and it appears that some of the hosts may be “getting weary in well-doing”. It happens to all of us. But I can definitely see a harmful trend, for the hosts, for the listeners, and for the entire ministry if it is not remedied.

I have to say that I am puzzled by your statements and I am not sure if what you mean by “noticeable homosexual mannerisms” that you are describing a man who has effiminate qualities or one who is flamboyant. I have known some men who had effeminate qualites who were not homosexual. And I have known someone who has suffered from wrongful judgements. I have also been surprised to learn that some handsome older Hollywood actors who were not the least bit effeminate, were homosexual. What does concern me was your comment that your children " have had to endure questionable public displays of affection". If you or your children are uncomforable with any displays of affection, you should tell the person that you are uncomfortable with it no matter what his or her sexual orientation is.

 

[timrohr]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Not sure if I’m replying correctly. Still new to the Forums. I was trying to be tactful when describing mannerisms, but I hesitate to say flamboyant. There’s a line there that’s hard to pin down. That’s why I used the word “noticeable”.

Sadly, today in the Church, we have to be more vigilant than ever. And some may suffer. But this is where pastors must be pastors and “pastor”. The question a pastor must ask is not what is good for just this person, but what is good for the flock.

As mentioned, a person may not be engaged in homosexual acts, but I would have no way of knowing that and would not be my place to ask. But if there are enough outward signs to make me suspicious then I must, in justice to my children (and I have 11 of them) “err on the side of caution”.

In the same way I would be just as suspicious of a heterosexual who exhibited sexual behaviors, dress, mannerisms whatever that I thought were unhealthy for my children.

The fact is that I must attend Mass under pain of mortal sin. I don’t have a choice in the matter other than finding another parish (which I’ve had to do several times).

The bottom line (for me) is that the onus is on the pastor since it is he who is responsible for those who are placed in visible positions of authority or ministry.

But nowadays, despite all the lip service we get, families, and families with children, lots of children, are not only not given proper regard, but are sometimes slighted and even slandered…even by their priests. I have a collection of comments that I won’t post here.

 

[zab]

I would have to say that if anyone is engaging in public displays of affection that is uncomfortable to you and your children then you should first speak to the person involved. If he refuses to listen, speak to your pastor about it. If the pastor refuses to listen, write to your bishop. Stop useing the word “questionable”. If it is uncomfortable to you then you should tell him and he should respect your wishes regardless if he is doing anything wrong or not.

 

[moondogbarks]

It is such a shame how one can claim to be a Christian and believe they are righteous enough to justify their hatred, judgement, discrimination and prejudice based on their misinterpretations of scripture or simply to abuse the word of God to put themselves in a position to say such a thing about people they deem to be sinners as if we are all not born sinners.

Now, the bible or Gods word does not teach us to be this way with each other. It teaches us to reflect on our own lives, actions and what we should do to reach eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven. This includes to love one another as Jesus loves us!

It is easy to take what the bible says out of context to simply suite one’s ignorant, selfish and arrogant ways of thinking.

If homosexuality is such a threatful sin, especially with homosexuals that are obvious or seem obvious, then I suppose the so called Christians that claim this way of thinking to be righteous are divine and without sin? What does the bible say about which sin is the greater sin if this is the case? And why should anyone outcast a homosexual practising or not if unmarried heterosexuals that shack up or live together and they do are obviously engaging in fornication and premarital sex don’t seem to be put in the same category of hatred towards being a bad impression on society, children or the church?

We need to focus on our own lives, our own journey in following Christ and in our own spiritual conversion and leave casting stones to the ones that do not sin! We are all in this thing called life together and we cannot do this without each other just as we are all ONE and ONE church of Christ!

Jesus loves us all and we are not privileged to decide who is or is not fit to be part of our Lord’s house of worship! On the other hand eventually we will all be directly judged by our Lord Jesus Christ and only by him so careful with the judgement calls it is not ours to make! Now this is made very clear in scripture.

Pay attention to your own life and be accountable for your own mistakes, sins, bad thoughts and ill intentions and strive to repent, change and to go through a spiritual conversion with Christ and the rest will follow if you truly believe and trust in God. Then God will then hopefully enable you to follow our Lord Jesus Christ for all the right reasons!

Following Christ was not intented to be hard or difficult. It is supposed to be full of joy, love, trust, forgiveness and patience, etc…

 

[choy]

Jesus sat with prostitutes and the most corrupt of the society (symbolized by the tax collectors)

the Church is not for the righteous, for heaven is already theirs. the Church is for sinners

 

[Benadam]

Cor 6
Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

Effeminite mannerisms are expressions of intimacy that only the presence of a husband should evoke and not often if ever seen by others. It is proper for a woman who’s vocation is motherhood to need a husband. The body communicates that need only to him who provides for it’s satisfaction.

It is not proper for a man to need his wife. The man is called to provide not need. The more a man needs a woman the less he can love and provide for her.

Outside the bonds of matrimony it became a means for selfish gain. Ever see Mother Terese acting that way? Can you imagine Our Blessed Mother with those mannerisms?

 

[St_Francis]

Effeminite mannerisms are expressions of intimacy that only the presence of a husband should evoke and not often if ever seen by others. It is proper for a woman who’s vocation is motherhood to need a husband. The body communicates that need only to him who provides for it’s satisfaction.

It is not proper for a man to need his wife. The man is called to provide not need. The more a man needs a woman the less he can love and provide for her.

Outside the bonds of matrimony it became a means for selfish gain. Ever see Mother Terese acting that way? Can you imagine Our Blessed Mother with those mannerisms?

Effeminacy is female mannerism in a man. When a man moves around like a woman, for example.

 

[St_Francis]

It is such a shame how one can claim to be a Christian and believe they are righteous enough to justify their hatred, judgement, discrimination and prejudice based on their misinterpretations of scripture or simply to abuse the word of God to put themselves in a position to say such a thing about people they deem to be sinners as if we are all not born sinners…

I think that “public sinners” sometimes need to have some sort of rein put on them in the Church. Unfortunately, when two people of the same sex display overt affection for each other, it is quite clear that they are *not *married.

Sure, a heterosexual man or women *might *be engaging in sinful activities, unknown to anyone, and be put in as a CCD teacher. But if it becomes known that this person is engaging in those types of activities, then that person should be removed from the position.

it is true that the Church is a place for sinners, but *repentant *sinners, people who are trying to love God more than they love themselves. it is not a place to *flaunt *one’s sin.

And parents are perfectly right to expect the Church to protect those of the flock who are trying to live holy lives, and esp their children.

While we are called to love the sinner, we are also called to *admonish *the sinner, and to *instruct *the ignorant. Allowing them not only to wallow in their sin but to infect others is *against *what Christ wants, not a part of what He wants.

 

[St_Francis]

…My children also have had to endure questionable public displays of affection between these persons of questionable sexual orientation at Mass, and at parish functions.

As a parent I also have to be concerned about allowing my child to be in the care of such a person who openly displays homosexual mannerisms should they be in a group or class where he is the person in charge.

In short it’s an act of injustice to parents and children to put persons of questionable sexual orientation when that questionable sexual orientation is known to the pastor and is publicly noticeable.

Homosexuality is in fact “objectively disordered” whether or not one is in fact engaged in homosexual acts. We cannot know whether a person who displays noticeable homosexual mannerisms is actually engaged in homosexual acts. It is not our business.

But it is our business to protect our children from possible harm and as parents we must “err on the side of caution”. It seems though that church authorities put “open mindedness” and “benefit of the doubt” on the opposite side of caution and don’t even seem to entertain the question “what about the children?”.

To me, the main point is when they start behaving inappropriately in Mass or around the parish. That is totally out of line, and I think that you are right to be concerned.

But I do not think that we can say of every person who simply displays certain types of mannerisms that they cannot do anything around the parish. I think that we have to be careful not to condemn people who *haven’t done *anything, while doing something about those who do.

That said, I want to make a general comment about CA Live. I’ve listened to it for 10 years, and it appears that some of the hosts may be “getting weary in well-doing”. It happens to all of us. But I can definitely see a harmful trend, for the hosts, for the listeners, and for the entire ministry if it is not remedied.

Possibly best addressed with the show itself rather than here, but I also want to say that this sort of thing happens soooo much–it’s just very difficult to run a talk show and sometimes people answer the question they think they heard rather than the one which was asked.

 

[OriginalJS]

The issue raised by this thread is conflicting. If the church loves all including homosexuals then they have a right to be there then their presence has to be tolerated even if it makes some uncomfortable. It is often difficult, if not impossible, to determine whether such persons are living chaste lives. It is also difficult, if not impossible to determine whether straight persons are living chaste lives. I don’t know what can be done that isn’t being done. A priest can’t stand up and announce that before Mass begins that all persons who are practicing homosexuals or using artificial birth control should leave. A church can’t ask parishioners to inform on others who may be leading sinful lives by engaging in immoral sexual behavior. People can’t be excluded because of personality traits as effeminate men or masculine women - this is all a very slippery slope. The best I can say is that if a parent feels his children are being subjected to improper displays, he should remove them.

 

[Newbie2]

I have to say that I am puzzled by your statements and I am not sure if what you mean by “noticeable homosexual mannerisms” that you are describing a man who has effiminate qualities or one who is flamboyant. I have known some men who had effeminate qualites who were not homosexual. And I have known someone who has suffered from wrongful judgements. I have also been surprised to learn that some handsome older Hollywood actors who were not the least bit effeminate, were homosexual. What does concern me was your comment that your children " have had to endure questionable public displays of affection". If you or your children are uncomforable with any displays of affection, you should tell the person that you are uncomfortable with it no matter what his or her sexual orientation is.

I agree.

What exactly is a “noticeable homosexual mannerism”?

 

[irishpatrick]

It is such a shame how one can claim to be a Christian and believe they are righteous enough to justify their hatred, judgement, discrimination and prejudice based on their misinterpretations of scripture or simply to abuse the word of God to put themselves in a position to say such a thing about people they deem to be sinners as if we are all not born sinners.

Now, the bible or Gods word does not teach us to be this way with each other. It teaches us to reflect on our own lives, actions and what we should do to reach eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven. This includes to love one another as Jesus loves us!

It is easy to take what the bible says out of context to simply suite one’s ignorant, selfish and arrogant ways of thinking.

If homosexuality is such a threatful sin, especially with homosexuals that are obvious or seem obvious, then I suppose the so called Christians that claim this way of thinking to be righteous are divine and without sin? What does the bible say about which sin is the greater sin if this is the case? And why should anyone outcast a homosexual practising or not if unmarried heterosexuals that shack up or live together and they do are obviously engaging in fornication and premarital sex don’t seem to be put in the same category of hatred towards being a bad impression on society, children or the church?

We need to focus on our own lives, our own journey in following Christ and in our own spiritual conversion and leave casting stones to the ones that do not sin! We are all in this thing called life together and we cannot do this without each other just as we are all ONE and ONE church of Christ!

Jesus loves us all and we are not privileged to decide who is or is not fit to be part of our Lord’s house of worship! On the other hand eventually we will all be directly judged by our Lord Jesus Christ and only by him so careful with the judgement calls it is not ours to make! Now this is made very clear in scripture.

Pay attention to your own life and be accountable for your own mistakes, sins, bad thoughts and ill intentions and strive to repent, change and to go through a spiritual conversion with Christ and the rest will follow if you truly believe and trust in God. Then God will then hopefully enable you to follow our Lord Jesus Christ for all the right reasons!

Following Christ was not intented to be hard or difficult. It is supposed to be full of joy, love, trust, forgiveness and patience, etc…

Judging a person’s soul is in God’s hands alone.

Judging a person’s actions MUST be done or else the world will fall into chaos.

Creating order for society is the only way to build a society worth living in.

Fornication, living together, adultery, etc., are grave sins, and they are no worse and no less grave sin than homosexual acts. Mortal sins are MORTAL and anyone doing those things should repent, go to confession, and change/transform their lives. The Church should also preach against all of those grave/mortal sins so that people cease placing their souls in great jeapardy.

Following Christ is most definitely hard. That is why Jesus said that the path to destruction is wide and the path to life is narrow. It is also why Saint Paul spoke so often about our need to persevere to end and endure our trials and endure until the end and to run a good race, etc. Jesus also told us to pick-up our cross and follow Him, crosses are NOT easy to carry.

True, authentic Christianity (not Christianity-lite as we see so often today) is NOT easy and it was never intended to be easy.

 

[Crumpy]

I would have to say that if anyone is engaging in public displays of affection that is uncomfortable to you and your children then you should first speak to the person involved. If he refuses to listen, speak to your pastor about it. If the pastor refuses to listen, write to your bishop. Stop useing the word “questionable”. If it is uncomfortable to you then you should tell him and he should respect your wishes regardless if he is doing anything wrong or not.

It’s been said many ways, many times…the “kiss of peace” has gotten WAY overboard, with literal kissing and hugging and butt grabbing and what not. Those gestures are NOT what the “kiss of peace” is supposed to be about.

In one of St. Peter’s epistles it says “greet each other with a holy kiss” – OK, so that is the clue – a “holy” kiss. Strictly speaking, do we understand what this scripture says?

I don’t think it means EITHER a hetersexual or homosexual or any sexual kiss. I don’t think the sign of peace is about “coming out” in church.

 

[TurboVW]

I understand what Timrohr is trying to say.

I’ve been living in Chicago my entire life, a huge city with a giant homosexual population. I don’t have any problem with them. In my large network of friends and coworkers, there are some who belong to that population. It’s their choice; its none of my business, and thus I cannot judge.

However, you’ll see homosexuals at parishes here that do behave in overtly homosexual ways. I’ve known of parishes with liturgical directors, musicians, or young adult group leaders that are homosexual and quite open about it.

Again, it’s their choice and lifestyle. Maybe I’m still adjusting to seeing its progression into society

 

[OraLabora]

Men who are effeminate aren’t necessarily homosexual. I am good friends with two very effeminate men who are validly married to women and are very clearly heterosexual.

I have known very macho men who, as it happened, turned out to be homosexual. You simply cannot judge a person’s sexuality from his mannerisms unless he’s making out with another man in front of you.

Scandal is often in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[crazzeto]

The issue raised by this thread is conflicting. If the church loves all including homosexuals then they have a right to be there then their presence has to be tolerated even if it makes some uncomfortable. It is often difficult, if not impossible, to determine whether such persons are living chaste lives. It is also difficult, if not impossible to determine whether straight persons are living chaste lives. I don’t know what can be done that isn’t being done. A priest can’t stand up and announce that before Mass begins that all persons who are practicing homosexuals or using artificial birth control should leave. A church can’t ask parishioners to inform on others who may be leading sinful lives by engaging in immoral sexual behavior. People can’t be excluded because of personality traits as effeminate men or masculine women - this is all a very slippery slope. The best I can say is that if a parent feels his children are being subjected to improper displays, he should remove them.

More over they should not ask such sinners to leave as the graces received durring mass will make such sinners all the more likely to repent. I agree completely with this stand point… As long as when such sinners talk to the clergy (in confessional, or else where) that they’re being given good orthodox counsole I would say the church is doing all it can.