Homosexuals in the Church

[LilyM]

Well, think a minute. I said this is group behavior, and it is cultivated so that one can be recognized as a member. Most of the time it is not the stereotypically “fey” behavior and speech patterns affected by comic like Robin Williams. It will be sexual only if they are trying to attract someone. They “dance” differently than do normal couples. but they have their ways. They can also behave like you or men when they want to, just as you and I would perhaps try to fit into another cultural group. Just as in the case of you and I not very thing by any means is determined by sex.

In what way is ‘their’ dance different from that of ‘normal’ couples? When you say ‘they have their ways’, what ‘ways’ precisely do you mean? Ways of speech? What exact ways of speech are you thinking of? Other behaviours? What specific behaviours are you thinking of?

I have repeatedly asked people on this thread to provide a specific and clear definition of ‘effeminate’ by giving concrete examples. You all have repeatedly been either unwilling or unable to do so.

I am fast reaching the conclusion that you either don’t know what the word means or at least don’t know how it actually applies concretely in real life. It seems odd to say ‘it’s wrong for a man to be effeminate’ when they apparently cannot discern or explain in which cases a man is or isn’t being effeminate, and can’t define the rule sufficiently that other people can be practically guided by it.

 

[bluelake]

Nor should practising homosexuals be priests which has resulted in the scandal of hebephilia(Canadian terminology)or ephebophilia(American terminology) NOT paedophilia.

I agree. Abuse of any kind is not to be tolerated.

bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Judging a person’s soul is in God’s hands alone.

Judging a person’s actions MUST be done or else the world will fall into chaos.

Creating order for society is the only way to build a society worth living in.

Fornication, living together, adultery, etc., are grave sins, and they are no worse and no less grave sin than homosexual acts. Mortal sins are MORTAL and anyone doing those things should repent, go to confession, and change/transform their lives. The Church should also preach against all of those grave/mortal sins so that people cease placing their souls in great jeapardy.

Following Christ is most definitely hard. That is why Jesus said that the path to destruction is wide and the path to life is narrow. It is also why Saint Paul spoke so often about our need to persevere to end and endure our trials and endure until the end and to run a good race, etc. Jesus also told us to pick-up our cross and follow Him, crosses are NOT easy to carry.

True, authentic Christianity (not Christianity-lite as we see so often today) is NOT easy and it was never intended to be easy.

irish,
Was it Jesus who said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”?
Concerning the woman caught in the act of adultery. btw, the man she was supposedly with, is not mentioned.

Mt.7:1-5 tells us not to judge others. The same measure we use on others will be measured
unto us. Be careful.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[Benadam]

WHAT body language? WHAT mannerisms? I am pleased to say I am unacquainted with roaring twenties Las Vegas dancing girls and prostitutes, so you’ll have to be more specific if you hope to be understood.

Since being effeminate is so obviously wrong, you should have no problems providing many concrete and specific examples of ‘effeminate’ body language and ‘effeminate’ mannerisms.

submissive postures that originally conveyed permission to draw closer with the hip slightly portruding because one leg becomes the primary support so the other can bend and turn out slightly showing the inner softer part of the leg. This is accompanied by one or both arms turned out so the inner arms are exposed.

This is also seen as a classic gay man pose

Do you know that mascara imitates the enlarged pupils of a receptive woman? Or that lipstick and colored nails imitate a woman who is in a state of arousal? That looking young and slender and even blond for women originate in the need to appear more fertile?

Acquaint yourself with almost everything that surrounds you if you live in a modern industrialized nation.

 

[Benadam]

Well, think a minute. I said this is group behavior, and it is cultivated so that one can be recognized as a member. Most of the time it is not the stereotypically “fey” behavior and speech patterns affected by comic like Robin Williams. It will be sexual only if they are trying to attract someone. They “dance” differently than do normal couples. but they have their ways. They can also behave like you or me when they want to, just as you and I would perhaps try to fit into another cultural group. Just as in the case of you and I not all our very thing by any means is determined by sex.

Injteresting that the effeminite body language that was more exxagerated and in your face when same sex couples were in the closet begin to manifest inb a more natural order as same sex couples are included as a cultural norm. Once something enters that collective vision it becomes part of what is accepted as the proper order. Once that happens it takes some powerfull external force that penetrates the inner life to purge it.

 

[LilyM]

submissive postures that originally conveyed permission to draw closer with the hip slightly portruding because one leg becomes the primary support so the other can bend and turn out slightly showing the inner softer part of the leg. This is accompanied by one or both arms turned out so the inner arms are exposed.

This is also seen as a classic gay man pose

Do you know that mascara imitates the enlarged pupils of a receptive woman? Or that lipstick and colored nails imitate a woman who is in a state of arousal? That looking young and slender and even blond for women originate in the need to appear more fertile?

Acquaint yourself with almost everything that surrounds you if you live in a modern industrialized nation.

So protruding one hip and turning one leg and one or both arms out is effeminate? In other words darn near EVERY male dancer, even totally masculine dancers like Gene Kelly, and athlete, on the face of the planet is in fact being sinfully effeminate, as they all do these things very regularly as part of their dance or sport? Good to know that I should avoid all those pansy athletes if I want to find a real man’s man

Mascara makes the eyes in general look bigger. It has nothing to do with the size of the pupils - if the eyes look bigger the pupils surely look smaller. It has to do with youth, as young people in general have eyes that are proportionally large compared to the rest of their face.

Lipstick and coloured nails? Depends on the colour of course. Fire engine red or metallic hot pink is nowhere nohow mimicking anything in nature, as those colours simply do not occur naturally on the human face or anywhere else on the human body.

Not to mention that men ALSO, if memory serves, flush when aroused as women do, so it makes as much sense for them to wear makeup if an important purpose is to mimic arousal and make oneself look sexually attractive.

What do female makeup products have to do with the question anyway? I personally know zero men, gay or straight, who would wear any makeup or nail polish. Unless they’re actors, of course, who ALL have to wear makeup on stage or in front of a camera.Or dressing up as a vampire for Halloween or something.

So surely you’re not suggesting that acting or fancy dress parties are effeminate as well as dancing and athletics?

 

[Rachel_J]

I’m going to do something interesting and answer this as a homosexual. I’m catholic and I’m chaste. Do I have some mannerisms that are a bit “butch”? Apparently. My friends are constantly trying to ‘girly’ me up, and I let them. Saves me having to decide what to wear.

I’ve only ever confessed to my priest, and I would be mortified if someone put in a complaint about me because I’m not the perfect Catholic Female. I’d be scandalised if I was asked to step back from any volunteer duties I was involved in because of it. I didn’t choose to be gay, its just my lot in life, and by the grace of Christ I do my best to live a biblical life.

If that’s a problem for others, well, it’s there problem. Why are they starring at me in church anyway? They should be focusing on the Lord.

 

[Benadam]

So protruding one hip and turning one leg and one or both arms out is effeminate? In other words darn near EVERY male dancer, even totally masculine dancers like Gene Kelly, and athlete, on the face of the planet is in fact being sinfully effeminate, as they all do these things very regularly as part of their dance or sport? Good to know that I should avoid all those pansy athletes if I want to find a real man’s man

Mascara makes the eyes in general look bigger. It has nothing to do with the size of the pupils - if the eyes look bigger the pupils surely look smaller. It has to do with youth, as young people in general have eyes that are proportionally large compared to the rest of their face.

Lipstick and coloured nails? Depends on the colour of course. Fire engine red or metallic hot pink is nowhere nohow mimicking anything in nature, as those colours simply do not occur naturally on the human face or anywhere else on the human body.

Not to mention that men ALSO, if memory serves, flush when aroused as women do, so it makes as much sense for them to wear makeup if an important purpose is to mimic arousal and make oneself look sexually attractive.

What do female makeup products have to do with the question anyway? I personally know zero men, gay or straight, who would wear any makeup or nail polish. Unless they’re actors, of course, who ALL have to wear makeup on stage or in front of a camera.Or dressing up as a vampire for Halloween or something.

So surely you’re not suggesting that acting or fancy dress parties are effeminate as well as dancing and athletics?

cultural norm’s are not the proper order of God

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

cultural norm’s are not the proper order of God

But cultural norms are entirely what the debate over masculine and feminine is about. How gender is expressed biologically is one thing, how it is expressed socially is quite another. The latter invariably involves performing a particular cultural notion of what gender “should” look like. For instance, there are certain cultures in which men wearing makeup is part of what it means to be masculine and figures strongly in courtship rituals. There are some cultures in which homosexual activity figures into coming of age rituals, the idea being that maleness and male fertility must be given in order to be present. Keep in mind that the Greeks, for whom homosexuality was no big deal, considered the Persians effeminate because of the cut of their clothes and their use of makeup. Our ideas of social gender expression are largely drawn from the Romans and carry the baggage of that particular culture.

So it’s fine to say that culture norms are not proper…so long as you remain generally circumspect regarding the propriety of all cultural norms, including those that you take for granted and so long as you refuse to confuse biology with a performed social expression. Even if (particularly if!) you find that expression comfortable or to your liking

Which means that all this concern about effeminacy is bunk. Literally. And is reflective of a much more deep-seated cultural problem–an assumption of male superiority. What really rankles about the “feminized” man is a) the feminine is empowered by being performed by a man; and b) the man is degraded by performing the feminine. In other words, the masculinity/femininity conversation is, at bottom, about power. Who has it, who should not have it. And we, as a culture, have a problem with “womanly” things (including women!) having power.

Moreover, the word translated as “effeminate” (malakos) means “weak.” (Which proves the point of the previous paragraph…) Given the context, it should probably be translated as “loose” or “morally lax” “decadent” “libertine” or “louche”. Not effeminate.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Got no problem with that. But he said “go and sin no more”. They may have. However, the problem we’re discussing is whether or not persons who are known to be homosexual, prostitutes, adulterers, etc., should now be in charge of teaching my children CCD, even if they have privately changed their behavior. They confessed to the priest, not to me.

Hmmm…and people wonder why I started a thread about how disdainfully people with same-sex attractions are regarded by Catholic people.

I’m curious. What kind of service in the church is so lowly, humiliating and hateful that only a homosexual (person) can be deemed worthy to perform it? After all, based on this post, people who have a past (especially homosexual (persons)) aren’t worthy to have an apostolate that involves contact with other people.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I’m going to do something interesting and answer this as a homosexual. I’m catholic and I’m chaste. Do I have some mannerisms that are a bit “butch”? Apparently. My friends are constantly trying to ‘girly’ me up, and I let them. Saves me having to decide what to wear.

I’ve only ever confessed to my priest, and I would be mortified if someone put in a complaint about me because I’m not the perfect Catholic Female. I’d be scandalised if I was asked to step back from any volunteer duties I was involved in because of it. I didn’t choose to be gay, its just my lot in life, and by the grace of Christ I do my best to live a biblical life.

If that’s a problem for others, well, it’s there problem. Why are they starring at me in church anyway? They should be focusing on the Lord.

Sad, isn’t it? People are stigmatized because they have same-sex attractions without regard to how they live their lives. I’m 38 and while I don’t ask like a “flaming queen,” just the fact that I’m a 38 year old man who is single, has no kids and is never seen accompanied by a woman is enough rouse suspicions.

 

[crazzeto]

Sad, isn’t it? People are stigmatized because they have same-sex attractions without regard to how they live their lives. I’m 38 and while I don’t ask like a “flaming queen,” just the fact that I’m a 38 year old man who is single, has no kids and is never seen accompanied by a woman is enough rouse suspicions.

I much agree, it’s very sad… Most poeple don’t consider that particularly in this culture, and most especially if you are in fact a faithful Christian (particularly Catholic) it’s actually pretty hard to find a potential spouse that will agree to living the kind of life demanded by God.

 

[choy]

Got no problem with that. But he said “go and sin no more”. They may have. However, the problem we’re discussing is whether or not persons who are known to be homosexual, prostitutes, adulterers, etc., should now be in charge of teaching my children CCD, even if they have privately changed their behavior. They confessed to the priest, not to me.

i’m a Catechist and i signed a paper that gives the archdiocese the right to request for my police file in relation to child-related crimes (child abuse, pedophelia, etc.). assuredly the Church is doing something about it

your last sentence is a bit troubling. why do you want them to confess to you just to calm your doubts? do you not trust your priest and your Church that they did their duty in this regard?

also, why single out homosexuals? i have many sins in the past. if anyone would look at the past of any person and find all their sins, we won’t have Catechists and Priests and other lay and religious people in the Church anymore. we all have our sins

i think having a celibate person with same-sex attraction would be a good influence for children. because a lot of what we see in the media today says that these people, they’re this way and there’s nothing we can do about it. and their actions are normal and we should accept it. these homosexuals that work in the Church who have turned from their sinful ways are good examples to kids and tell them that hey, what the media and the public is telling you is a lie, that what they are doing is a sin and they can actually make an effort to follow the teachings of Christ

 

[Benadam]

Grace & Peace!

But cultural norms are entirely what the debate over masculine and feminine is about. How gender is expressed biologically is one thing, how it is expressed socially is quite another. The latter invariably involves performing a particular cultural notion of what gender “should” look like. For instance, there are certain cultures in which men wearing makeup is part of what it means to be masculine and figures strongly in courtship rituals. There are some cultures in which homosexual activity figures into coming of age rituals, the idea being that maleness and male fertility must be given in order to be present. Keep in mind that the Greeks, for whom homosexuality was no big deal, considered the Persians effeminate because of the cut of their clothes and their use of makeup. Our ideas of social gender expression are largely drawn from the Romans and carry the baggage of that particular culture.

So it’s fine to say that culture norms are not proper…so long as you remain generally circumspect regarding the propriety of all cultural norms, including those that you take for granted and so long as you refuse to confuse biology with a performed social expression. Even if (particularly if!) you find that expression comfortable or to your liking

Which means that all this concern about effeminacy is bunk. Literally. And is reflective of a much more deep-seated cultural problem–an assumption of male superiority. What really rankles about the “feminized” man is a) the feminine is empowered by being performed by a man; and b) the man is degraded by performing the feminine. In other words, the masculinity/femininity conversation is, at bottom, about power. Who has it, who should not have it. And we, as a culture, have a problem with “womanly” things (including women!) having power.

Moreover, the word translated as “effeminate” (malakos) means “weak.” (Which proves the point of the previous paragraph…) Given the context, it should probably be translated as “loose” or “morally lax” “decadent” “libertine” or “louche”. Not effeminate.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

All I can say to this is it begins under a wrong premise. I didn’t even touch on the biology of sex. I believe I have been clear about femininsm. The good and evil expressions are identical. It’s what they mean that distinguishes them as good or evil. If they are meant to communicate for evil purposes they are evil. If they are directed toward their intended and natural purposes they aren’t. This is not culturally exclusive but culturally universal.

How is a woman’s body appear female when she is at work ? Doesn’t a woman’s body make that plain? what is the purpose of effeminite mannerisms if the body already makes gender visible? Our bodies make gender obvious eneogh. Why would we require exaggeration or bodily movements to further advertise gender?

 

[LilyM]

All I can say to this is it begins under a wrong premise. I didn’t even touch on the biology of sex. I believe I have been clear about femininsm. The good and evil expressions are identical. It’s what they mean that distinguishes them as good or evil. If they are meant to communicate for evil purposes they are evil. If they are directed toward their intended and natural purposes they aren’t. This is not culturally exclusive but culturally universal.

How is a woman’s body appear female when she is at work ? Doesn’t a woman’s body make that plain? what is the purpose of effeminite mannerisms if the body already makes gender visible? Our bodies make gender obvious eneogh. Why would we require exaggeration or bodily movements to further advertise gender?

I am unquestionably female, and unquestionably heterosexual to boot, but apparently, according to some beloved members of my family, even MY body doesn’t make my feminity plain enough.

They sometimes urge me to adopt a supposedly more ‘feminine’ look - wear more jewellery and makeup, get my eyebrows tweezed to within an inch of their lives, wear tighter-fitting clothing and the like.

So no, a woman’s body is apparently NOT enough on its own. By the way, have you noticed your erroneous underlying assumption that female bodies define their gender on their own whereas for some reason male bodies don’t, and the equally erroneous assumption that with men (but apparently not with women) we must obsess about their behaviour and mannerisms too?

Perhaps that is partly why I am so jack of this idea that one is offending God if one doesn’t cater to whatever the current social stereotype of one’s gender is. God and I both know that I am a woman and a heterosexual (though chaste, as my single state demands) - who on earth cares what other people think except those I intend to sleep with? Who else has any right to comment on whether my appearance, behaviour or mannerisms are sufficiently ‘feminine’?

If social ideals of behaviour were meant to guide our lives then why on earth did Christ tell us NOT to be of the world? In other words that serving Him is NOT about catering to what society demands of us? Why in fact did He say that the devil is ruler of the world? By the same logic shouldn’t we all be sleeping around - after all, society promotes sexual promiscuity/availability as a normal if not desireable trait among people of both genders.

 

[Benadam]

So no, a woman’s body is apparently NOT enough on its own. By the way, have you noticed your erroneous underlying assumption that female bodies define their gender on their own whereas for some reason male bodies don’t, and the equally erroneous assumption that with men (but apparently not with women) we must obsess about their behaviour and mannerisms too?

Perhaps that is partly why I am so jack of this idea that one is offending God if one doesn’t cater to whatever the current social stereotype of one’s gender is. God and I both know that I am a woman and a heterosexual (though chaste, as my single state demands) - who on earth cares what other people think except those I intend to sleep with? Who else has any right to comment on whether my appearance, behaviour or mannerisms are sufficiently ‘feminine’?

If social ideals of behaviour were meant to guide our lives then why on earth did Christ tell us NOT to be of the world? In other words that serving Him is NOT about catering to what society demands of us? Why in fact did He say that the devil is ruler of the world? By the same logic shouldn’t we all be sleeping around - after all, society promotes sexual promiscuity/availability as a normal if not desireable trait among people of both genders.

Lily I didn’t mention the male body because the mannerism’s associated with sexual intimacy that are natural to males haven’t been exploited as a tool for sinfull behavior in the way a woman’s has. In fact those mannerism’s became icons of the fertility cults that the prophets of the OT fought against. Fertility was a power of nature that is most likened to God because it is worshipped by all the pagan religions as the creative force and source of life by them. Theologically speaking the effeminite are those who come from the matriarchal cultures that wordhip the powers of nature, fertility the first among them.

 

[hellopeople]

I much agree, it’s very sad… Most poeple don’t consider that particularly in this culture, and most especially if you are in fact a faithful Christian (particularly Catholic) it’s actually pretty hard to find a potential spouse that will agree to living the kind of life demanded by God.

I think he has SSA.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I think he has SSA.

Funny how you only went on those few facts (unless you’ve seen my other posts) and guessed the truth. I hate it, to be honest and would change last year if I could (temporal issues notwithstanding).

 

[hellopeople]

Funny how you only went on those few facts (unless you’ve seen my other posts) and guessed the truth. I hate it, to be honest and would change last year if I could (temporal issues notwithstanding).

I have seen your other posts (though it was sort of implied when you mentioned you were not “flaming”)

 

[LilyM]

Lily I didn’t mention the male body because the mannerism’s associated with sexual intimacy that are natural to males haven’t been exploited as a tool for sinfull behavior in the way a woman’s has. In fact those mannerism’s became icons of the fertility cults that the prophets of the OT fought against. Fertility was a power of nature that is most likened to God because it is worshipped by all the pagan religions as the creative force and source of life by them. Theologically speaking the effeminite are those who come from the matriarchal cultures that wordhip the powers of nature, fertility the first among them.

So lesbianism isn’t sinful? And lesbians, of course, have never been attracted to so-called ‘butch’ (masculine-seeming) women as partners in their sin? Curiouser and curiouser.

Are you saying it’s MALE sexuality that has been primarily the basis of fertility cults, or female? I’ve seen plenty of both - read up on Ancient Egyptian beliefs about the river Nile (which supposedly emanated from the erect phallus of one or other of their gods) or Hindu worship of the Shiva-lingam (Shiva’s phallus) and you’ll see there’s plenty of male sexuality involved in pagan fertility cults right alongside the female.