Homosexuals in the Church

[Benadam]

So lesbianism isn’t sinful? And lesbians, of course, have never been attracted to so-called ‘butch’ (masculine-seeming) women as partners in their sin? Curiouser and curiouser.

Are you saying it’s MALE sexuality that has been primarily the basis of fertility cults, or female? I’ve seen plenty of both - read up on Ancient Egyptian beliefs about the river Nile (which supposedly emanated from the erect phallus of one or other of their gods) or Hindu worship of the Shiva-lingam (Shiva’s phallus) and you’ll see there’s plenty of male sexuality involved in pagan fertility cults right alongside the female.

ummm, You responded to what I wrote about ‘effeminite mannerisms" but for some reason keep making wild accusations that I’m singling out this group ‘all Dancers’ this person Gene Kelly’ now Lesbians as sinners or sinfull because what I said. That’s sin from a subjective perspective ( though you mistakenly attach it to groups) and I’m not discussing who it makes a sinner or who it doesn’t. I can’t know that neither can you. Honestly, it’s a rare person who isn’t engaged in a sinfull behaviour that finds it’s origin in in the distortion of natural responses attached to intimacy. I was attempting to express the sublimity of the behavior and how it permeates cultures all over the world. No need to keep pointing out various groups who you mistakenly believe are implicated specifically. I’m trying to discuss the ‘body language associated with the word effeminate’ This is the Op subject.

Worship of powers of nature= matriarchal culture
Worship of One God and Father = Patriarchal

wouldn’t you say that fertility is a power of nature that drives our culture?

What do people of our culture serve God, the Christian order of family? Or sex and the urge to reproduce albeit in various distortions and dysfuntion?

 

[Soutane]

It is such a shame how one can claim to be a Christian and believe they are righteous enough to justify their hatred, judgement, discrimination and prejudice based on their misinterpretations of scripture or simply to abuse the word of God to put themselves in a position to say such a thing about people they deem to be sinners as if we are all not born sinners.

Now, the bible or Gods word does not teach us to be this way with each other. It teaches us to reflect on our own lives, actions and what we should do to reach eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven. This includes to love one another as Jesus loves us!

It is easy to take what the bible says out of context to simply suite one’s ignorant, selfish and arrogant ways of thinking.

If homosexuality is such a threatful sin, especially with homosexuals that are obvious or seem obvious, then I suppose the so called Christians that claim this way of thinking to be righteous are divine and without sin? What does the bible say about which sin is the greater sin if this is the case? And why should anyone outcast a homosexual practising or not if unmarried heterosexuals that shack up or live together and they do are obviously engaging in fornication and premarital sex don’t seem to be put in the same category of hatred towards being a bad impression on society, children or the church?

We need to focus on our own lives, our own journey in following Christ and in our own spiritual conversion and leave casting stones to the ones that do not sin! We are all in this thing called life together and we cannot do this without each other just as we are all ONE and ONE church of Christ!

Jesus loves us all and we are not privileged to decide who is or is not fit to be part of our Lord’s house of worship! On the other hand eventually we will all be directly judged by our Lord Jesus Christ and only by him so careful with the judgement calls it is not ours to make! Now this is made very clear in scripture.

Pay attention to your own life and be accountable for your own mistakes, sins, bad thoughts and ill intentions and strive to repent, change and to go through a spiritual conversion with Christ and the rest will follow if you truly believe and trust in God. Then God will then hopefully enable you to follow our Lord Jesus Christ for all the right reasons!

Following Christ was not intented to be hard or difficult. It is supposed to be full of joy, love, trust, forgiveness and patience, etc…

Public unrepentant obstinate sinners be they homosexual,heterosexual,Nancy Pelosi,Dalton McGuinty or Cherie and Tony Blair should be welcome in the Church but be denied the Eucharist or their sins are compounded and the priest is complicit.Read St Paul.Or has the Gospel of NICENESS superceded it.?No one is judging them friend but we have EVERY right to judge their actions.

 

[Major_Tom]

Public unrepentant obstinate sinners be they homosexual,heterosexual,Nancy Pelosi,Dalton McGuinty or Cherie and Tony Blair should be welcome in the Church but be denied the Eucharist…

Is there a mechanism for this? For denying people the Eucharist? Conceptually, I agree that you could make a case for it, but the implementation would be so selective and isolated, that it seems like it would be more trouble than it’s worth. You’ve listed four people by name.

Would people write to a local priest with information regarding their unworthiness? Should a local priest be empowered to act on his own? What about the lesser known unrepentant obstinate sinners? You know, like in your neighborhood and mine. Can you gauge their unrepentant-ness? Or obstinancy?

 

[Major_Tom]

Worship of powers of nature= matriarchal culture
Worship of One God and Father = Patriarchal

Hmmm, is this a historical shorthand of yours? Where do polytheistic patriarchies fit in? Are you implying a ‘rightness’ with all patriarchal societies because they all worship one god?

 

[Soutane]

Is there a mechanism for this? For denying people the Eucharist? Conceptually, I agree that you could make a case for it, but the implementation would be so selective and isolated, that it seems like it would be more trouble than it’s worth. You’ve listed four people by name.

Would people write to a local priest with information regarding their unworthiness? Should a local priest be empowered to act on his own? What about the lesser known unrepentant obstinate sinners? You know, like in your neighborhood and mine. Can you gauge their unrepentant-ness? Or obstinancy?

Just ask Patrick Kennedy.We’ve had local parishoners denied the Eucharist for obstinate and public sin.(This is done privately and they are advised in absolute confidence not to present thenselves for Holy Communion.Patrick Kennedy was advised by his Bishop privately TWO YEARS ago not to present himself for the Eucharist,but HE HIMSELF revealed it to the press to make,what I presume to be political points at the expense of his erstwhile Faith.)
St Paul said in1 Corinthians 11.23-29

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

When one gives the Eucharist which is the True Presence of Christ’s Body Blood Soul and Divinity that person who receives Him unworthily profanes the Lord.If the priest is aware of public and persitant and obstinate mortal sin,he in my opinion should deny the Eucharist to bring the person back to God through the realization that his offense is grevious and unacceptable and again in my opinion is complicit in providing the opportunity to the person to further greviously sin.It is NOT punishment.It is a loving correction.Christians should not allow other Christians to Damn themselves if they can help it.If I have commited grevious sin I absolutely refrain from communicating until I have been reconciled to God through the Sacrament of Confession or Reconciliation.

 

[Major_Tom]

Just ask Patrick Kennedy.We’ve had local parishoners denied the Eucharist for obstinate and public sin.(This is done privately and they are advised in absolute confidence not to present thenselves for Holy Communion.Patrick Kennedy was advised by his Bishop privately TWO YEARS ago not to present himself for the Eucharist,but HE HIMSELF revealed it to the press to make,what I presume to be political points at the expense of his erstwhile Faith.)
St Paul said in1 Corinthians 11.23-29

Thanks, its news to me.

 

[Benadam]

Hmmm, is this a historical shorthand of yours? Where do polytheistic patriarchies fit in? Are you implying a ‘rightness’ with all patriarchal societies because they all worship one god?

I guess it is. Short for;
Monotheism is associated with patriarchy, and polytheism or cosmotheism with matriarchy or the divine feminine.

Again, if you hear a judgement when you read my post it’s not intended. Evil isn’t exclusive to the gender of either social structure.

 

[Major_Tom]

I guess it is. Short for;

Again, if you hear a judgement when you read my post it’s not intended. Evil isn’t exclusive to the gender of either social structure.

I agree…! Thanks for clarifying…

 

[Benadam]

The issue of Priests with effeminite mannerisms is something that bothered me because I saw those mannerism’s exagerated to the point of theatrics celebrating Mass. In my former Parish it seemed to be the chosen image since there wasn’t a priest whether pastoring, assisting or visiting that wasn’t using feminine gestures to express themselves.

Mannerism’s of body and speech that are obviously effeminite are exagerations that have been learned and practiced. The kind of hyperexpression chosen as identity markers by adolescent kids working out their identity crisis.

When a person identifies with other’s and becomes comfortable, the mode of expression becomes identified with the self and the people that caused the attraction can be long forgotten. The mannerism are considered as " Just being me" " I shouldn’t have to stop being me" It’s not a sin to be me"

It may not be a sin to have identified with certain other’s and their manner of expression, adopted and practiced those mannerisms as expressions of our own, but that doesn’t make them properly ordered. It also doesn’t make them authentic expressions of the true self either. They are accepted, adopted and practiced, they aren’t something that we 'can’t stop doing". They, at best, are exagerations of expression picked up as identity markers when working out identity crisis. Usually around the age of 10 to 14. By 15 they are becoming ingrained and sensed as part of the self. Most people do this it’s just that most people grow out of them. At least the more exagerated ones that mark us as part of some group. You kno, dooooooood!

I don’t want what I’m talking about to be confused with the way many gentle, humble hearted and holy men carry themselves. Their bodies aren’t speaking a language proper to the female body but proper to the human body that transcends gender.

I guess my main point is, I do think it’s wrong for a Priest’s body language to be an expression proper to the female body. I know that effeminite mannerism’s are learned and can be unlearned so should be, if one wishes to act in persona Christi.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I guess my main point is, I do think it’s wrong for a Priest’s body language to be an expression proper to the female body. I know that effeminite mannerism’s are learned and can be unlearned so should be, if one wishes to act in persona Christi.

But Benadam, these gestures and mannerisms to which you object have little to do with the reality of male and female and everything to do with how male and female are performed in a culture or society. And because they are performance and culturally intuited, they do not actually have a strictly correlative relationship with the reality of gender. ALL of your ideas (and mine!) regarding proper gestures for a man or a woman to make are artificial and culturally conditioned. In other words, there is no cultural expression of gender that is proper or intrinsic to any body, male or female. To prefer one sort of expression over another is a matter of one of three things:

1–The making of a purely aesthetic judgment.
2–Relating to a particular political preference regarding representations of power based on preconceived notions of the superior potency of one or the other gender.
3–The making of an aesthetic judgment informed by political preference regarding representations of power.

All three responses are conditioned. But the morality of a gesture, whether a gesture is right or wrong, good or evil, simply does not enter into the picture. This conversation is all about cultural conditioning. It can be discussed in terms of morality or religion or what have you, but all those things are masks for the real discussion–cultural conditioning and the ways in which we construct our perception of the world and then back morality and/or religion into it to justify our perceptions and constructions.

(Also, appropriating the terms matriarchy and patriarchy to refer to various moral absolutes is absurd.)

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[lelhajj]

Timorh
After all the sad incidents of sexual abuse by the clergy, i certainly believe we should be more aware about where and with whom our children are being placed by the parents. I am also a mother who had a lot of concern when i was raising my children since some cases of sexual abuse came at that time. I never left my children alone with the priest and i took them to the catechism where a female catechist was present. I advised also my children about 'good and bad touch" even if it was a priest, teacher, friend, whoever, to tell me immediately and get out of such sexual advance. Certainly i priest can not be removed from church or a homosexual can not be discriminated by their behavior just because they display efeminated behavior, remember sometimes, the one that are pedophiles do not display efeminated behavior, but, they hide themselves with a mask of “macho”. Children are going to realize that there are homosexuals everywhere, not only at the church. This is something we can not avoid. I think, it is more important to establish a good communication with our children and ask everytime they go to catechism if everything went ok or if there is something to talk about.
If you have any concern about priest efeminated or openly gay manners you can talk to the bishop or whoever is in higher hierarchy at the church. Not because you are accussing them, but, after all the scandals at the church, it is better to express our concerns if we see something that might be “wrong”. I believe, the higher authority at the church will advise the priest to have more adequate manners and also will keep an eye on that priest just in case that the priest might be a potential pedophile or not.
We should be more aware about where and with whom we put our children.
It is better for the church and for our children and for us as parents.
We help our church to mend past mistakes by improving also the trust that the parishioners put in it.

 

[lelhajj]

And please, do not missunderstand me. I have never had any bad experience with the priests that has come accross my life, in fact, they have been wonderful people who has always help us to make our faith firmer. But, if we just turn a blind eye to what has happened to our church worldwide, we wouldn’t help her and we would still be falling down in the same mistakes we had before. Only by being more aware and trying to do something about if we see “suspicious behaviors” in our priests, then we are also alerting their superiors if there is something that they must keep an eye on it.
What it is happening now, due to this church scandal is that we are starting seeing our priests not the way we used to see them “blindly” a person with no sins or wrongs, but, more as human person that is also prone to sin and fall into temptations.
If we don’t do anything, like nothing bad has happened, then, things might continue to happen and we will regret and suffer the pain again that us, parishioners, pope, and God had felt because of such happenings.
We can never forget the pain of hundreds of children who had been sexually abused by the people who they thought were the most sacred, without sin.
It is our duty to be more aware.

 

[Benadam]

Grace & Peace!

But Benadam, these gestures and mannerisms to which you object have little to do with the reality of male and female and everything to do with how male and female are performed in a culture or society. And because they are performance and culturally intuited, they do not actually have a strictly correlative relationship with the reality of gender. ALL of your ideas (and mine!) regarding proper gestures for a man or a woman to make are artificial and culturally conditioned. In other words, there is no cultural expression of gender that is proper or intrinsic to any body, male or female. To prefer one sort of expression over another is a matter of one of three things:

1–The making of a purely aesthetic judgment.
2–Relating to a particular political preference regarding representations of power based on preconceived notions of the superior potency of one or the other gender.
3–The making of an aesthetic judgment informed by political preference regarding representations of power.

All three responses are conditioned. But the morality of a gesture, whether a gesture is right or wrong, good or evil, simply does not enter into the picture. This conversation is all about cultural conditioning. It can be discussed in terms of morality or religion or what have you, but all those things are masks for the real discussion–cultural conditioning and the ways in which we construct our perception of the world and then back morality and/or religion into it to justify our perceptions and constructions.

(Also, appropriating the terms matriarchy and patriarchy to refer to various moral absolutes is absurd.)

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Peace! Thank you for this thought provoking response. I agree with you for the most part. Gender specific body language we see today is a performance in just the ways you articulated so well.

I can’t agree that the human body, that is one with our little brethren the animals, and like them produced gender specific, doesn’t manifest a visible expression specific and proper to gender as well. I’m reminded of the command to populate the earth given to us in our Original Innocense. God formed the shape of our bodies specific to gender, surely they expressed a gender specific language associated with the giving and recieving exclusive to the conjugal act. A language lost in the distortions of disorder.

Yours in Christ.

Marv.

 

[lutherlic]

This thread probably has too specific of a focus. The broader question is what should the Church do about those who are in open opposition to its teaching. These include not only those engaging in homosexual acts, but all sex outside of marriage, abortion supporters, improperly receiving the Eucharist, skipping Mass, etc.

When people do these things they sin and that endangers their immortal soul. It may be private however and effect only themselves.

It is a whole different issue when they make others aware of these sins as it brings scandal to the Church and confusion to the faithful. This could be through public campaigns for their causes, same sex individuals acting toward each other as a married couple might (holding hands, hugging, etc.), or even just sharing their personal theologies with others. These things cause real harm beyond the non-repentant sinner.

To claim that you are Catholic means you wholly accept the teaching of the Church. The Catechism is not a book of guidelines or suggestions. Those with no intention of being faithful are more than sinners, they are heretics. That is the real problem.

 

[alveolate]

The fact is that I must attend Mass under pain of mortal sin. I don’t have a choice in the matter other than finding another parish (which I’ve had to do several times).

please forgive me if i am repeating something… the thread is too long and this line just caught my eye!

i certainly hope your motivation for attending Mass is a little more than “pain of mortal sin”! shouldn’t “love of God” be the prime reason here?

in saying that, of the great variety of responses to “flamboyant homosexuals” in church, i would add this: tell your kids, “Pay attention to the words you pray at Mass and listen to God’s words for you. Do not be distracted by others, who are only here to practice their faith under their circumstances.” what your priest says is important: do not succumb to judgement during Mass. you are in the house of God… what would Mary do?

if this is not enough… the brave move would be to make friends with these gay suspects and pastor them in what ever way you can. this is one application of the universal priesthood which the lay share with the clergy. plus, i always believe that if God brings something to your attention, such that it nags the hell out of you, there must be a calling somewhere in that nagging. perhaps it is your calling to address these rainbow warriors?

just some suggestions. hope they are of some use!
and again, sorry if it’s already been brought up… TL;DR…

pax et bonum.

 

[dragonlady9947]

How can you tell by looking at someone who they sleep with? My husband and I ride motorcycles. When we go to church in our leathers, no one thinks we are drug pushing, gun wielding Hells Angels - we aren’t judged by what we wear. Personally, I think some of the women in our church wear their clothes too tight but I go to church to pray - not to determine fashion. As for appropriate and inappropriate touching - ever been to Europe? Men and women touch all the time there. Men even carry “purses”. Get over it. Men playing sports fondle each other constantly on the sports field. As for your children - if they are normal, they probably are more charitable and accepting than you are. Continuing Catholic repression and guilt is why people leave the Church. I am sure Mother Theresa didn’t say " Oh are you gay? - well just die then."

I go to Church to pray and devote that limited time to God. There is this big push for Catholics to “come home” but as I read these ridiculous blogs about gays, and guns, and garbage, I wonder why anyone would come back. To what? The God I believe in doesn’t have time for stupidity and pseudo judgments. (In case you are wondering, I was taught by real nuns in Catholic private boarding schools. I was not brought up to be a bigot.)

 

[allenirvan]

When I was in high school we had a teacher who was always getting accused of being homosexual because of his mannerisms. He walked with a womanly sway, using his hands while speaking was very womanly in appearance, soft spoken, etc. It seemed to all of us immature students that this man must be gay just because he looked and acted gay, so what if he had a wife and kids. The truth is, though, that this man endured a very tragic accident at some point earlier in his life and suffered some brain damage, resulting in his feminine mannerisms.

We have no business casting judgment on someone based on their mannerisms, however, inappropriate “displays” shouldn’t happen at Church and especially Mass. Personally, I would be bitter and angry if someone told me that I should change my mannerisms; nobody should have to go around consciously thinking about their mannerisms to make them conform to some other person’s whims as to what’s acceptable. But again, conscious actions/displays can certainly be controlled and could, to my imagination, become very inappropriate; in such a case, these should be dealt with.

 

[joe_clark]

On March 17, a caller called into Catholic Answers and asked what could be done about the growing presence of homosexuals in the Church. Unfortunately, her question was misunderstood by the hosts and their answer, I thought, was a little dismissive.

What she was really asking about, and if she wasn’t - I’ll ask it, is what can be done about those who are either practicing homosexuals or at minimum “giving cause for scandal” who are in positions of authority or prominent ministries within the Church.

I recently went through an inquisition of sorts by some of our local clergy for raising the question. I was given the standard “we should not judge”, etc.

That’s fine. I’m old enough not to judge. My children are not. What they see is someone on the altar, in charge of a youth group, teaching CCD, etc., who at least appears to be gay in his dress, mannerisms, etc.

He may very well be living a chaste life style, just as I, if I was single, could be living with a woman but not engaging in sex, could in fact be chaste, but at the same time “giving cause for scandal” - a sin that is little referenced today.

My children also have had to endure questionable public displays of affection between these persons of questionable sexual orientation at Mass, and at parish functions.

As a parent I also have to be concerned about allowing my child to be in the care of such a person who openly displays homosexual mannerisms should they be in a group or class where he is the person in charge.

In short it’s an act of injustice to parents and children to put persons of questionable sexual orientation when that questionable sexual orientation is known to the pastor and is publicly noticeable.

Homosexuality is in fact “objectively disordered” whether or not one is in fact engaged in homosexual acts. We cannot know whether a person who displays noticeable homosexual mannerisms is actually engaged in homosexual acts. It is not our business.

But it is our business to protect our children from possible harm and as parents we must “err on the side of caution”. It seems though that church authorities put “open mindedness” and “benefit of the doubt” on the opposite side of caution and don’t even seem to entertain the question “what about the children?”.

That said, I want to make a general comment about CA Live. I’ve listened to it for 10 years, and it appears that some of the hosts may be “getting weary in well-doing”. It happens to all of us. But I can definitely see a harmful trend, for the hosts, for the listeners, and for the entire ministry if it is not remedied.

Careful how you proceed. You believe many things you see as homosexual tendencies, and this may be from the saturation of the continued scandal and the very poor way the church is handling the sexual abuse problem? Is there proof or just your belief. This is how innocent good priests get slammed because their voice is too soft (so he must be gay) or they appear so compasionate that a “man” would never act like that so he must be gay? I stay to the truth, what is and not what one thinks.

You should be more on guard against the pedophile. They can be male or female, priest or janitor, church leader, school sponsor ect, scout leader. They can be married and have children. Studies indicate the married straight pedophile do not always abuse thier own children. they can be single, in college ect. This is why the spin by the church that only homosexuals abuse children makes me fustrated and I have to admit a little angry. This is not true and if believed can actually play in harming your children by parents who may be lead falsely that all is well if you just rid the church of homosexuals. Is an adult male that abuses a female acceptable somehow?

I suggest you find the courage and the faith to sit and talk with the people you have fears about. Not to grill the person, but give people a chance to tell you who they are. Get to know them and you may be suprised to find a dedicated compasionate priest who speaks softly and is gentle in nature.

 

[lutherlic]

How can you tell by looking at someone who they sleep with? My husband and I ride motorcycles. When we go to church in our leathers, no one thinks we are drug pushing, gun wielding Hells Angels - we aren’t judged by what we wear. Personally, I think some of the women in our church wear their clothes too tight but I go to church to pray - not to determine fashion. As for appropriate and inappropriate touching - ever been to Europe? Men and women touch all the time there. Men even carry “purses”. Get over it. Men playing sports fondle each other constantly on the sports field. As for your children - if they are normal, they probably are more charitable and accepting than you are. Continuing Catholic repression and guilt is why people leave the Church. I am sure Mother Theresa didn’t say " Oh are you gay? - well just die then."

I go to Church to pray and devote that limited time to God. There is this big push for Catholics to “come home” but as I read these ridiculous blogs about gays, and guns, and garbage, I wonder why anyone would come back. To what? The God I believe in doesn’t have time for stupidity and pseudo judgments. (In case you are wondering, I was taught by real nuns in Catholic private boarding schools. I was not brought up to be a bigot.)

In support of your point , people could easily misjudge someone like this:



That is Bishop Thomas Wenski of Orlando:

 

[Cherry5]

As for your children - if they are normal, they probably are more charitable and accepting than you are. Continuing Catholic repression and guilt is why people leave the Church. I am sure Mother Theresa didn’t say " Oh are you gay? - well just die then."

I go to Church to pray and devote that limited time to God. There is this big push for Catholics to “come home” but as I read these ridiculous blogs about gays, and guns, and garbage, I wonder why anyone would come back. To what? The God I believe in doesn’t have time for stupidity and pseudo judgments. (In case you are wondering, I was taught by real nuns in Catholic private boarding schools. I was not brought up to be a bigot.)

I completely agree with you, God is a lot Bigger than these issues, I believe he is more interested in saving souls than loosing them, He is more interested in knowing that you are loving, charitable, and non-judgmental.

And Yes Kids do have less “hang-ups” when it comes to accepting people for whom they are.