Homosexuals in the Church

[mark_a]

On March 17, a caller called into Catholic Answers and asked what could be done about the growing presence of homosexuals in the Church. Unfortunately, her question was misunderstood by the hosts and their answer, I thought, was a little dismissive.

What she was really asking about, and if she wasn’t - I’ll ask it, is what can be done about those who are either practicing homosexuals or at minimum “giving cause for scandal” who are in positions of authority or prominent ministries within the Church.

I recently went through an inquisition of sorts by some of our local clergy for raising the question. I was given the standard “we should not judge”, etc.

That’s fine. I’m old enough not to judge. My children are not. What they see is someone on the altar, in charge of a youth group, teaching CCD, etc., who at least appears to be gay in his dress, mannerisms, etc.

He may very well be living a chaste life style, just as I, if I was single, could be living with a woman but not engaging in sex, could in fact be chaste, but at the same time “giving cause for scandal” - a sin that is little referenced today.

My children also have had to endure questionable public displays of affection between these persons of questionable sexual orientation at Mass, and at parish functions.

As a parent I also have to be concerned about allowing my child to be in the care of such a person who openly displays homosexual mannerisms should they be in a group or class where he is the person in charge.

In short it’s an act of injustice to parents and children to put persons of questionable sexual orientation when that questionable sexual orientation is known to the pastor and is publicly noticeable.

Homosexuality is in fact “objectively disordered” whether or not one is in fact engaged in homosexual acts. We cannot know whether a person who displays noticeable homosexual mannerisms is actually engaged in homosexual acts. It is not our business.

But it is our business to protect our children from possible harm and as parents we must “err on the side of caution”. It seems though that church authorities put “open mindedness” and “benefit of the doubt” on the opposite side of caution and don’t even seem to entertain the question “what about the children?”.

That said, I want to make a general comment about CA Live. I’ve listened to it for 10 years, and it appears that some of the hosts may be “getting weary in well-doing”. It happens to all of us. But I can definitely see a harmful trend, for the hosts, for the listeners, and for the entire ministry if it is not remedied.

It’s the culture. Years ago, this wouldn’t even have been a question. Homosexuality was not anything to be proud of and was kept secret for a reason.

And I must admit that being in the close proximity to even heterosexual kissing inside a Church makes me uncomfortable.

I guess that’s the culture we live in too.

 

[bluelake]

Forgot to add “Homosexual Theology” by Kerby Anderson; while seemingly not a Catholic he still gives a very reasonable and Scriptural analysis of homosexuality.

God condenms sin in the Bible. All sin.
To claim God created a person to be homosexual and then condemns him for this sin, is nonsense. We are called to repent, for all sins , everyday.
God gives us Choices. Some choices are more difficult than others.

bluelake

 

[scapularkid8]

Jesus sat with prostitutes and the most corrupt of the society (symbolized by the tax collectors)

the Church is not for the righteous, for heaven is already theirs. the Church is for sinners

Amen.

 

[timrohr]

Fascinating replies. By the way, I, Tim Rohr, am a guy, for those that refer to me as “she”. It’s also my real name and I’m not afraid to use it. I’d think that in a Christian forum none of us should be hiding, but that’s up to you.

I have 11 children, ages 24-2. 5 boys, 6 girls. I am just as concerned about my girls being in close proximity to a male with “questionable” behaviors. This is what most of you seem to be missing. This is not a question about homosexuality, but about responsibility of pastors in regards to those whom he puts in positions of visible authority.

What do I mean about a male with “questionable” behavior or mannerisms. When speaking of heterosexual situations, I think every dad knows what I’m talking about. The young man may not be sleeping around, but I’d be a fool to think that he wasn’t interested in sex with my daughter. As a parent I have to keep my antennae up. Most men understand the signals.

In the case of a person who is either a known homosexual or gives me reason to suspect that he might be, I have the same responsibility to be vigilant for my sons. The problem is that a heterosexual male is not as attuned to detecting “signals” because he has no personal experience with it. In other words, as a heterosexual male who had to deal with his own coursing hormones in his younger days he can more easily spot problem spots in the males that are now interested in his daughters. I think you get it.

In the normal course of life, this is just the natural role of a parent. But in the church context that authority is sometimes sublimated to the authority we grant to the pastor who then in turn grants that authority to others (i.e. teachers, ministers, etc.)

 

[Thomas_Casey]

You may state your opinion on the subject, but you must state it in a manner that is polite and uses language that avoids stereotyping. Please remember, that you must speak about the subject, not about each other or people who are not here. I’ve deleted posts, edited others and given infractions. Please stay on topic and be gentle with each other.

Thank you,

Thomas Casey
Moderator

 

[BobObob]

I’d think that in a Christian forum none of us should be hiding, but that’s up to you.

Some of us have some really good reasons to be anonymous on CAF. I have said many times on here that I have same-sex attractions. If someone who personally knows me saw that I said I had SSA here, it would destroy my reputation.

I have 11 children, ages 24-2. 5 boys, 6 girls. I am just as concerned about my girls being in close proximity to a male with “questionable” behaviors. This is what most of you seem to be missing. This is not a question about homosexuality, but about responsibility of pastors in regards to those whom he puts in positions of visible authority.

Much of this discussion lies on the presumption that people with SSA are dangerous individuals who are about to hurt children, or a least much more likely to hurt children than anyone else.

The young man may not be sleeping around, but I’d be a fool to think that he wasn’t interested in sex with my daughter. As a parent I have to keep my antennae up. Most men understand the signals.

If the man isn’t sleeping around but is instead abiding by the Church’s teaching, there would be no way he would be seeking sex from your daughter.

In the case of a person who is either a known homosexual or gives me reason to suspect that he might be, I have the same responsibility to be vigilant for my sons.

This shouldn’t mean excluding those who have SSA, or seem to have SSA, from ministry.

I guess something that seems central in your posts is that you distrust individuals with SSA or who seem to have SSA, a lot more than you distrust others. It seems you would be a lot more at ease with a man who doesn’t have SSA around your daughters than a man with SSA around your sons because the former causing a problem would, you seem to feel, be a lot more easily detectable and easier for you to intervene.

If there is someone who is in contact with your children who makes you feel uncomfortable, perhaps it would be better to get to know that person better rather than to discredit and distrust him because he seems like he might have SSA.

 

[timrohr]

Hi Bob,

"Much of this discussion lies on the presumption that people with SSA are dangerous individuals who are about to hurt children, or a least much more likely to hurt children than anyone else. "

John Jay Criminal Justice Study 2004 on Clerical Abuse by Priests: 81% of the victims were male. Most were post-pubescent, thus biological males. What else do you want to call it?

“If the man isn’t sleeping around but is instead abiding by the Church’s teaching, there would be no way he would be seeking sex from your daughter.”

There’s always a first time. My job as a parent is to provide the best and safest possible environment for my child. Therefore, everyone is suspect. Trust but verify.

"This shouldn’t mean excluding those who have SSA, or seem to have SSA, from ministry.

I guess something that seems central in your posts is that you distrust individuals with SSA or who seem to have SSA, a lot more than you distrust others. It seems you would be a lot more at ease with a man who doesn’t have SSA around your daughters than a man with SSA around your sons because the former causing a problem would, you seem to feel, be a lot more easily detectable and easier for you to intervene."

SSA is “objectively disordered” (however you want to qualify that). OSA is not. So yes, I would be more comfortable.

“If there is someone who is in contact with your children who makes you feel uncomfortable, perhaps it would be better to get to know that person better rather than to discredit and distrust him because he seems like he might have SSA.”

An openly gay male is my daughter’s piano teacher. I have no problem with that. I also do business with him on a regular basis. I have no problem with that. We have a very workable relationship. I also have some knowledge for what is really a gender identity crisis (abused by his father).

I also work closely with a man who was “a woman” for 30 years. In his last few years of this life he was living a life of suicidal despair. Someone (not me) had the courage to present him with the Church’s teachings on homosexuality in particular and sexuality in general. The Truth has set him free. He has witnessed now on several occasions to the despair of his former life. He begins his talks with “I am a homosexual”. And then proceeds to share his story and how he came out of that lifestyle. He concludes his talks with “I am a homosexual, but now the only man I chase is that one”. And he points to the Crucifix.

Upon his conversion, the pastor of his church was overjoyed and gave him a prominent position. But for several years his conversion was not public. It was a very private thing for him and he only began speaking about it to counteract a local gay marriage bill. It became apparent to the pastor that the rest of the community did not know that this man had “converted”. As far as they knew, he was still a practicing homosexual. Plus he had the added challenge of having already induced some bodily changes. The pastor decided that out of charity to both the community and to the man not to put him in a prominent position lest the man be forced to tell his story to everyone (which he was not ready to do) or give cause for scandal. The pastor asked him to remain working for the church but in a role that was not as visible. The man, showing true humility and understanding, agreed. Now that his story is public, it’s no longer a problem. He’s a great witness…and the pastor, a great example.

 

[Shinpin]

If your Children witness homosexual acts (equivalent to heterosexual acts) you must remind them, that their is Diversity in the world, and you have to respect it. they are not defiling themselves infront of others, or intensely showing affection, so leave it be. just as you leave alone a boyfriend and girlfriend who hold hands at the mall , but if they over display their affection, thats different.