Honest questions about Catholicism (all faith traditions welcome to respond!)

[iwillrisenow]

I hope I don’t get thrown off the boards or attacked for what I’m about to say…but even if I do get banned, please know that everything I say is in full honesty and respect and not intended to provoke or “troll” anyone here. In fact, I’m putting this on the “non-Catholic” board because I hope that visitors to this site from a range of traditions might see it and respond.

I am a convert of seven years. When I came into the Church, I was a young, seeking woman following where God’s Spirit led. And he led me to the Church.

I had a few questions at the back of my mind…but because I believed that God had brought me to the Church for a reason, I decided that His will was more important than my doubts or questions.

Now I believe that He might be calling me to, at the very least, examine some of the Church’s teachings more closely and carefully consider how I might continue to serve Him best in this lifetime.

There are a few teachings in particular:

• Faith and works. If Christ died for our salvation, why are we still in this sort of limbo state of “well, sorta” but never, ever good enough for Him? Deep down, I believe that God’s love goes so beyond anything that we can say or do that it could extend to any human being on the planet, in any way. I have trouble accepting that we need to do xyz when it is God who offers us salvation.
• Same-sex mutual commitment is sinful. I am a single woman in her 30s and I wouldn’t wish the loneliness and isolation of wanting to give oneself to another so badly, yet being left alone on my worst enemy. I have learned a lot from the teachings of the Church on sexuality and intimacy…but I cannot reconcile that, say, a same sex couple who wishes to commit themselves to one another and love one another (yes, including physical intimacy) is committing a sin, and that a life of isolation and separation is preferable, especially when there is the chance for mutual commitment. I do agree with the Church when it comes to intimacy outside of such a commitment- but I have a hard time accepting that commitment and love is less preferable to isolation, no matter who is involved.
• The Sacraments are for Catholics in a state of grace only. This is somewhat related to my first comment. I have struggled with the idea that God only gives Himself to those who have dotted all the I’s and crossed all the t’s. I cannot imagine that He limits his grace this way…why wouldn’t He offer the Sacraments to anyone who comes to Him? Imagine a world where we could all be truly united, whoever we are, wherever we come from. Where we could all receive the Sacraments if we just come to Him?
• So much of Church tradition rooted in European society and culture. I am not from a European background and, quite frankly, before I came into the Church my perspective (as well as that of much of my family) was that it is a “white” Church. Now I know this not to be true (and, if anything, it is probably less “white” than many Protestant denominations), but you cannot deny that so much of Church tradition, which saints we tend to honor, etc. is rooted in Europe. As a non-European, I have trouble feeling truly at home and accepted in the Church for everything that I am. This extends to everything from the fact that I am in the single state of life against my will to the fact that I am extremely isolated in a predominately white parish.
• The fact that doing so much as taking a break from the Church to reflect on these things puts me in some sort of mortal peril. Questioning the Church’s teachings is a sin or means you just don’t understand well enough. There is absolutely no room in Catholicism for debate or hesitancy or questioning. You either accept everything, or you don’t truly love God and you’re out. Getting in line with Church teachings seems to be placed way above seeking Truth, no matter where it might be found.

The fact that if I try to consult any Catholic source on these questions (religious, spiritual director, etc.), they’ll just tell me that the only place to be is the Church and that stepping outside the lines for even a second is way worse than trying to discern what God is saying concerns me. I have always been a bit concerned about Catholics leave-and-you-are-condemned mindset. Why don’t we consider that God may be speaking outside the Church? Why don’t we try to help each person live out the fullness of their life in Christ, whether they are in the Church or not?

Please…the only thing that I ask of anyone who responds here…please consider each of these questions as honestly and humanly as possible. I don’t believe that any of these things are supposed to be shut down easily with a Bible verse or Catechism reference. Perhaps we could try to discuss these things keeping in mind the spirit of who each of us understand God to be…I know I have in writing these questions out. I’ve done my best to say what’s on my heart rather than trying to present the “correct” answers or statements.

Thank you in advance to anyone who offers their thoughts here, or even anyone who reads this without disregarding it immediately. God Bless you all

 

[Monica4316]

I hope I don’t get thrown off the boards or attacked for what I’m about to say…but even if I do get banned, please know that everything I say is in full honesty and respect and not intended to provoke or “troll” anyone here. In fact, I’m putting this on the “non-Catholic” board because I hope that visitors to this site from a range of traditions might see it and respond.

I am a convert of seven years. When I came into the Church, I was a young, seeking woman following where God’s Spirit led. And he led me to the Church.

I had a few questions at the back of my mind…but because I believed that God had brought me to the Church for a reason, I decided that His will was more important than my doubts or questions.

Now I believe that He might be calling me to, at the very least, examine some of the Church’s teachings more closely and carefully consider how I might continue to serve Him best in this lifetime.

There are a few teachings in particular:

• Faith and works. If Christ died for our salvation, why are we still in this sort of limbo state of “well, sorta” but never, ever good enough for Him? Deep down, I believe that God’s love goes so beyond anything that we can say or do that it could extend to any human being on the planet, in any way. I have trouble accepting that we need to do xyz when it is God who offers us salvation.

Hello, I’m a convert too… I’ll try to answer your questions as best I can.

God indeed loves us BUT we need to accept His love and forgiveness in order for it to have an effect in our souls. That’s because the forgiveness actually changes the state of our soul. If Bob hurt Suzie, and then she forgives him, he still has a sin on his soul. But if God forgives him, the sin disappears, it’s washed away. For this, Bob needs to repent and accept God’s forgiveness. God doesn’t force it on anyone, because then we would just be robots, it would not be love. We need to accept the salvation that God offers and we accept it BY repenting and confessing our sins. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession to a priest in the Bible when He said to the Apostles, whatever sins they forgive will be forgiven, and whatever sins they don’t forgive, won’t be forgiven. The Apostles have successors today. That’s where we get Confession. It’s the ordinary way to be forgiven of mortal sins. The other possible way is perfect contrition, but that’s a special grace.

• Same-sex mutual commitment is sinful. I am a single woman in her 30s and I wouldn’t wish the loneliness and isolation of wanting to give oneself to another so badly, yet being left alone on my worst enemy. I have learned a lot from the teachings of the Church on sexuality and intimacy…but I cannot reconcile that, say, a same sex couple who wishes to commit themselves to one another and love one another (yes, including physical intimacy) is committing a sin, and that a life of isolation and separation is preferable, especially when there is the chance for mutual commitment. I do agree with the Church when it comes to intimacy outside of such a commitment- but I have a hard time accepting that commitment and love is less preferable to isolation, no matter who is involved.

The issue with homosexual relationships is because they go against natural law. God made marriage for a certain reason, and when we go against His plan, we are rejecting His law. That is why it’s a sin. Being alone is not the worst thing that could happen. I’m a single woman in my 30s too and I have decided to never marry but be consecrated to God in some way. That means I’ll never have a human spouse. But it’s brought me closer to Our Lord and to understanding His love for me. I don’t believe that a faithful Catholic is ever “alone” because we can have a friendship with Jesus that is much deeper and more satisfying than even a spousal relationship with another creature.

When God loves us, it means He wants our greatest happiness. Not a fleeting worldly happiness in a state of sin that would result in an eternal separation from Him. He doesn’t want us to suffer, but if the choice is some suffering here on earth or in eternity, He would prefer here on earth, even though He would rather us not suffer at all. But suffering can be used, as He used the Cross. When we accept any suffering here on earth for love of God, it brings us much closer to Him and makes us holier.

• The Sacraments are for Catholics in a state of grace only. This is somewhat related to my first comment. I have struggled with the idea that God only gives Himself to those who have dotted all the I’s and crossed all the t’s. I cannot imagine that He limits his grace this way…why wouldn’t He offer the Sacraments to anyone who comes to Him? Imagine a world where we could all be truly united, whoever we are, wherever we come from. Where we could all receive the Sacraments if we just come to Him?

If someone is in a state of mortal sin and they receive Communion, it is actually like they are crucifying Jesus again. It causes Him tremendous suffering and their souls become even worse. That’s because there is no darkness in God and He can’t be united with sin. Asking for this is asking for God to cease to be holy, which would be a terrible thing to ask. God is holy and that is good. We need to only receive Him with preparation.

Everyone is invited to come and receive the Sacraments by becoming Catholic, but if we let non Catholics receive them, they’d be receiving without preparation. St Paul talks about this in the Bible - when we receive in a state of sin, we receive unto our own condemnation. It is another mortal sin.

God instituted a Church… it is not just a human institution. It is His Body on earth, we need it if we want to be with Him

 

[Monica4316]

• So much of Church tradition rooted in European society and culture. I am not from a European background and, quite frankly, before I came into the Church my perspective (as well as that of much of my family) was that it is a “white” Church. Now I know this not to be true (and, if anything, it is probably less “white” than many Protestant denominations), but you cannot deny that so much of Church tradition, which saints we tend to honor, etc. is rooted in Europe. As a non-European, I have trouble feeling truly at home and accepted in the Church for everything that I am. This extends to everything from the fact that I am in the single state of life against my will to the fact that I am extremely isolated in a predominately white parish.

I think the reason for this is because Europe has been Christian for a while so they had time to have the Saints etc. Now it’s very secularized, sadly. Now many other countries are becoming more Christian. There are Saints from other cultures and races too. I think it depends on where you live… where I live, many in my parish are not white. I’m white but not European or American. The Catholic Church in the end is universal, you can find it in any country… it’s not a European only church. I understand it can be lonely to feel different though. I’m an immigrant and I’ve felt lonely because of that. What I try to do in church, is I try to just come closer to Our Lord and spent time with Him… I just try to work on my spiritual life

• The fact that doing so much as taking a break from the Church to reflect on these things puts me in some sort of mortal peril. Questioning the Church’s teachings is a sin or means you just don’t understand well enough. There is absolutely no room in Catholicism for debate or hesitancy or questioning. You either accept everything, or you don’t truly love God and you’re out. Getting in line with Church teachings seems to be placed way above seeking Truth, no matter where it might be found.

I hope you are not taking a break from going to Mass because that would make it more difficult for you to figure things out and deal with your doubts. We need God’s grace and His grace flows to us through the Mass. I’m sure you’re aware also of the Sunday obligation. But to answer your question, it’s not a sin to not understand or to want more explanation. We can do that without doubting. Doubting is when you not only want clarification or understanding, but where you’re thinking “I don’t know if this is true anymore”. But the reason why we follow the Church teachings is because doubt and faith are opposites. Faith is a gift from God and a virtue.

Having been through some periods of doubting, what I would recommend to you from my experience, is that it’s MUCH harder to figure out your questions while taking a “break from the Church”. Go to Mass, go to Adoration, pray there, ask your questions and research, try to understand more and PRAY for faith. That would help you to find the answers and to understand them much better than drawing away from the Church, because in this way, you have less access to grace, which you need to understand the answers God wants to give you. I’ve been through this a few times and though I didn’t stop going to Sunday Mass, I noticed that when I went to church and prayed with an open heart, it helped me MUCH more than just thinking about it at home.

When I went through times of doubt, I went to Mass and just didn’t go up for Communion. I later confessed the doubts and then received Communion again. But even just being at Mass, gave me much more graces to help me with my doubts and to figure things out.

The fact that if I try to consult any Catholic source on these questions (religious, spiritual director, etc.), they’ll just tell me that the only place to be is the Church and that stepping outside the lines for even a second is way worse than trying to discern what God is saying concerns me. I have always been a bit concerned about Catholics leave-and-you-are-condemned mindset. Why don’t we consider that God may be speaking outside the Church? Why don’t we try to help each person live out the fullness of their life in Christ, whether they are in the Church or not?

God can give people outside the Church graces (that’s how anyone converts at all) but it’s to lead them closer to Himself and it wouldn’t lead them away from the truth or the Sacraments. For example, there are stories of Muslims who have had dreams of Christ and didn’t know it’s Him, and then when missionaries came and told them about Christ, they found the same descriptions in the Bible as they saw in their dream. Because of this they converted. God acted but to bring them to Himself, and they ended up leaving Islam.

Being in the Church is NOT just being in a human institution. It is the Body of Christ. It is Him on earth. If a person wants to be in Christ but rejects being in His Church, how can that be? that’s like wanting the Head of the Church but rejecting the Body and the visible representative of the Head, the Pope.

I’d just recommend going to Mass and praying before the Blessed Sacrament, asking for graces and the gift of faith and understanding spiritual understanding comes from the Holy Spirit too. You’d find it more in prayer in the Church, than at home just thinking. We need graces to understand spiritual things, and the less graces we receive, the more we would rely on our own natural understanding, which lacks light when we need to understand divinely revealed things. Our reason needs to be illumined in a way, by faith. Some things we might understand from natural law, but not all, and our society rejects so much of natural law that it’s not even always easy to see it anymore. As for divine revelation that is impossible to accept without grace.

God bless you

 

[iwillrisenow]

Hi Monica4316. Thank you for responding to my post so graciously and honestly. I have a few thoughts that I wanted to share:

In response to the comments about single, secular life I fully understand that it does not have to be a lonely, isolated life…but only if that is your call. I have known some people who have been very full and satisfied as singles- I don’t think that this cannot be so at all. I have also known other people like me who are not full and satisfied in the single life…because it is not a call from God on our lives but rather a result of the fallen world, free will, and the sinful nature of human beings.

Regarding natural law: if one man, one woman etc. is natural law, why is it the foundation of the argument against same sex relationships? Shouldn’t the basis of such an argument be a supernatural source? And how is natural law a reliable source for the argument on marriage but not when we are working through questions of faith?

The whole “if you’re doubting, the only answer is…to get closer to the Church” position is part of what concerns me because it is completely founded on the assumption that the Church is the only place where Truth can be found. But what if that is the precise point that you are doubting? To answer your question, I do not plan to stop going to Mass, Adoration, etc. but possibly not receiving the Sacrament may be in order for the time being. Again, however, the assumption is that Truth can only be found in the Church and I think that is where my central question is: is grace only given to humanity through the Catholic Church or can it be given anywhere (without necessarily eventually leading to the Church)? When we say ‘the Church’ do we have to mean the Catholic Church or is this meant to be taken more broadly?

Again, I very much appreciate the thoughtfulness of your responses

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I had a few questions at the back of my mind…but because I believed that God had brought me to the Church for a reason, I decided that His will was more important than my doubts or questions.

You are not alone here, many Church Martyrs, Saints and holy men and women have pondered your same thoughts.

Now I believe that He might be calling me to, at the very least, examine some of the Church’s teachings more closely and carefully consider how I might continue to serve Him best in this lifetime.

God lovingly calls all of His children, especially sinners into His Love. Your comment reminds of St. Augustine, who was one of the many who struggled and became reluctant to their calling. For example; St. Augustine learned of the Sacramental life in the priesthood to which he was called and is quoted to have said, “give me chastity, but not yet”. St. Augustine is one of the most quoted historical scholars around the world, in both religious and secular academics.

You would be cheating yourself, if you do not question or examine the Church’s Sacred Traditions, and divine revelations given to her, that is never subject to change. In comparison to Church disciplines which are subject to change.

What you ponder here, is what Martyrs, Saints and Holy men and women are made of.

Faith and works. If Christ died for our salvation, why are we still in this sort of limbo state of “well, sorta” but never, ever good enough for Him?

Divine revelation reveals; “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. My Catholic perspective on this particular subject is not a doom and gloom gospel, as If I had to earn my salvation, when my salvation is paid in full with the highest price, signed eternally in my dear Lord’s blood. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, so that I don’t lose it. Although I may fall seven times a day, God has given me His grace (fully in the sacraments) that strengthens me, to get back up and follow Him. There is an everlasting joy and hope in exercising the sacramental life, when God promised to never leave me orphan.

Off topic, but I feel compelled to share this with you. I once attended a men’s retreat and most attendees were priest. Every day, as men, we prayed together, cooked together, washed dishes together, sang together. I laughed so hard and experienced the most joy in my life. My point to this; I was taken back, to find these priest in possession of so much love and joy in daily living, and found them to be the most reverent and holy men when it came to practicing their ministry. So, much so, I did not want to leave.

Learning from these priest, revealed to me; The fear of God, is a joy, the work is to do the will of God in my life. One of the weapon’s I use to work out my salvation with fear and trembling is Love. By myself, I can never be good enough for God. But He who lives in me, makes me good enough and acceptable to be in God’s presence.

Deep down, I believe that God’s love goes so beyond anything that we can say or do that it could extend to any human being on the planet, in any way. I have trouble accepting that we need to do xyz when it is God who offers us salvation.

Remember, disciplines (xyz) are practiced to help us maintain (work out) our communion in God, so that it is not lost, which are subject to change. God’s love is given for all life, and eternal life is promised to those who die (baptized) in the Lord. God’s Love extends to all humanity including our loved one’s who may be in purgatory. It is Jesus body, the Church, who is commissioned by God to bring His Love to all nations, people, tribes and tongue, via the sacramental economy.

Same-sex mutual commitment is sinful.

No, “Same-sex mutual commitment” goes against the natural laws to pro-create, which God created man and woman, who are ordered by divine law to pro-create and multiply. I believe more research by you is needed, into the Church leader’s opinion('s) in comparison to the Church’s divine teaching on this subject of “Same-sex mutual commitment”.

cont’

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont’

I am a single woman in her 30s and I wouldn’t wish the loneliness and isolation of wanting to give oneself to another so badly, yet being left alone on my worst enemy. I have learned a lot from the teachings of the Church on sexuality and intimacy…but I cannot reconcile that, say, a same sex couple who wishes to commit themselves to one another and love one another (yes, including physical intimacy) is committing a sin, and that a life of isolation and separation is preferable, especially when there is the chance for mutual commitment. I do agree with the Church when it comes to intimacy outside of such a commitment- but I have a hard time accepting that commitment and love is less preferable to isolation, no matter who is involved.

What you are dealing with here is a complicated social issue in today’s society, that has been with humanity since the recording of Sodom and Gomorrah. This new complicated, particular same sex social issue, introduces a wide new range of social practices that are foreign to the Church’s disciplines. For example, multiple facets of transgender and bi-sexuality, embryos grown in a test tube, embryonic human and animal stem cell, to name a few, that goes against the Church’s ancient social teachings and disciplines.

I don’t believe the Church has given a full infallible teaching or disciplinary ruling to date, in the above subjects, including Same Sex orientations. Only commentaries made from existing Church disciplines and practices, which are subject to change. And these commentaries are geared towards Catholic life, not the World’s social issue’s in particular.

Thus, the Church does not pass a disciplinary judgement on the world or it’s social practices. She trust in God’s will to be done here.

I never find our virgin Priest or virgin Nuns to be left in isolation or inept in social life. They struggle for sure, but we all struggle with some form of temptation to sin. These are disciplinary actions, that deal’s with the temptation’s from the flesh, to which we all fall victim to, or experience. No one is immune from such temptations.

My point is; Sin is sin. Whether it violates God’s divine creation law or violates God’s divne law to Love one another. In other words, a Same-sex couple has to deal with their temptations of the flesh, just as I have to deal with temptation of killing my neighbor = (being angry with my neighbor).

Now I am relating this subject to practicing Catholics who deal with “Same-sex” disciplines. To those “Same-sex” couples who are ignorant of divine revelation, and divine creation law, fall into a different category here. The latter’s love and commitment is not questioned. IF? Same sex mutual commitment were to become the dominant social practice, the human race would eventually fall into oblivion.

The Sacraments are for Catholics in a state of grace only. This is somewhat related to my first comment. I have struggled with the idea that God only gives Himself to those who have dotted all the I’s and crossed all the t’s. I cannot imagine that He limits his grace this way…why wouldn’t He offer the Sacraments to anyone who comes to Him? Imagine a world where we could all be truly united, whoever we are, wherever we come from. Where we could all receive the Sacraments if we just come to Him?

The Sacraments of Initiation (baptism (which saves now), Eucharist, Confirmation) is for all the lost and calls sinners to repentance to find God’s help in mercy and grace. Sacraments of healing such as the Sacrament of reconciliation is for the baptized in Christ Jesus = True Trinity.

God’s Love is never limited to the few, this is never a teaching of the Church. The Church has opened her doors for all nation’s, tongue, tribes and peoples, to come to the Sacramental life, in every age since the resurrection. In God’s Kingdom, those in heaven and those in earth are eternally united, there is no division.

So much of Church tradition rooted in European society and culture. I am not from a European background and, quite frankly, before I came into the Church my perspective (as well as that of much of my family) was that it is a “white” Church. Now I know this not to be true (and, if anything, it is probably less “white” than many Protestant denominations), but you cannot deny that so much of Church tradition, which saints we tend to honor, etc. is rooted in Europe.

Not so, today members of the body of Christ come from all parts of the world. Secondly our first apostles were all Jews, many early Church fathers come from the Middle East, Africa and what is now Arab or Muslim territories. The Church has canonized Saints in both South and North America. You will find many devout Catholics in Asia today, even though they continue to suffer persecution from their local governments.

As a non-European, I have trouble feeling truly at home and accepted in the Church for everything that I am. This extends to everything from the fact that I am in the single state of life against my will to the fact that I am extremely isolated in a predominately white parish.

Today you are at liberty to visit or change your Parish. I have attended predominantly Spanish, Korean, Philipino, Black parishes in the U.S. The Church is Catholic =universal, in my experience the Roman Catholic Church is color blind. Although in the late, 50’s and 60’s there were some local Church members in the south and Midwest, including priest that held to social segregation practices and laws. When the social laws changed, the social issues of segregation diminished, but can still exist. In other words, Members of the Catholic church can change in social issues, but the Catholic Church herself is Rock, She will never compromise on divine revelation and or her infallible Apostolic Teachings, which are never subject to change.

Peace be with you

 

[midori]

• Faith and works. If Christ died for our salvation, why are we still in this sort of limbo state of “well, sorta” but never, ever good enough for Him? Deep down, I believe that God’s love goes so beyond anything that we can say or do that it could extend to any human being on the planet, in any way. I have trouble accepting that we need to do xyz when it is God who offers us salvation.

If all Christ had to do was die, why didn’t he allow himself to be killed by Herod, and get it over with when he was a baby? That would have been very efficient, and he wouldn’t have had to waste any time. Poof, salvation. But instead, what did he do? He lived for 33 years and spent spent the last three teaching about the Kingdom of God, to help better explain to us our role in the universe. How often did he say, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…”

So, if you boil down Christ’s message that he gave over and over and over again, it reduces down to “Love God” and “Love your neighbor”. Because all of us are connected. Remember on the Road to Damascus, Christ didn’t say, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute my followers”, but, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” And in the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, it’s all, “When did we see you hungry/thirsty/naked/sick/in prison/whenever”, and the answer came, “When you did this for someone, you did it for me.”

So-- our works are empty without God’s grace. Nothing we can do would be worth a pebble without God to bless and add value to it. But when we make an effort to separate ourselves from sin, and to do things for love of God— that’s where the value gets added.

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 

[Dorothy]

I feel the need to add that Our Lord Jesus Christ taught and gave us everything we need to pick up our cross and follow Him.

He taught us to pray, and the goal is to pray always. He gave us the sacraments and when they are received in the right disposition are very effective. He gives us Himself in the Eucharist…there is nothing that can compare with that.

There are great spiritual books, lives of the saints, and, of course, the Catechism. They can teach and inspire us.

And, we need to pray whether we feel like it or not. When we persist the Lord consoles us as we need it.

All of us, whether we are married or single, have challenges in our life. The only way to get through them is to fix our eyes on the Lord, and accept the gift of His Blessed Mother to intercede for us.

I could write a book about the struggles in my life and still have. The challenges help me realize that I can’t do it on my own. I know that more than ever now, in my senior citizen age!

May our Lord Jesus Christ lead you on your spiritual journey!

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m actually seeing numbers of priests and Mass attendees everywhere I go from Africa, Vietnam, Philippines and South America lately. I guess you could say they were all influenced by European missionaries, but they’re definitely not European. If your church is 100 percent white Euro, I’d suggest getting out more and attending some churches in urban areas or some shrines. The crowds there in my experience are very diverse.

 

[Memaw]

I hope I don’t get thrown off the boards or attacked for what I’m about to say…but even if I do get banned, please know that everything I say is in full honesty and respect and not intended to provoke or “troll” anyone here. In fact, I’m putting this on the “non-Catholic” board because I hope that visitors to this site from a range of traditions might see it and respond.

I am a convert of seven years. When I came into the Church, I was a young, seeking woman following where God’s Spirit led. And he led me to the Church.

I had a few questions at the back of my mind…but because I believed that God had brought me to the Church for a reason, I decided that His will was more important than my doubts or questions.

Now I believe that He might be calling me to, at the very least, examine some of the Church’s teachings more closely and carefully consider how I might continue to serve Him best in this lifetime.

There are a few teachings in particular:

• Faith and works. If Christ died for our salvation, why are we still in this sort of limbo state of “well, sorta” but never, ever good enough for Him? Deep down, I believe that God’s love goes so beyond anything that we can say or do that it could extend to any human being on the planet, in any way. I have trouble accepting that we need to do xyz when it is God who offers us salvation.
• Same-sex mutual commitment is sinful. I am a single woman in her 30s and I wouldn’t wish the loneliness and isolation of wanting to give oneself to another so badly, yet being left alone on my worst enemy. I have learned a lot from the teachings of the Church on sexuality and intimacy…but I cannot reconcile that, say, a same sex couple who wishes to commit themselves to one another and love one another (yes, including physical intimacy) is committing a sin, and that a life of isolation and separation is preferable, especially when there is the chance for mutual commitment. I do agree with the Church when it comes to intimacy outside of such a commitment- but I have a hard time accepting that commitment and love is less preferable to isolation, no matter who is involved.
• The Sacraments are for Catholics in a state of grace only. This is somewhat related to my first comment. I have struggled with the idea that God only gives Himself to those who have dotted all the I’s and crossed all the t’s. I cannot imagine that He limits his grace this way…why wouldn’t He offer the Sacraments to anyone who comes to Him? Imagine a world where we could all be truly united, whoever we are, wherever we come from. Where we could all receive the Sacraments if we just come to Him?
• So much of Church tradition rooted in European society and culture. I am not from a European background and, quite frankly, before I came into the Church my perspective (as well as that of much of my family) was that it is a “white” Church. Now I know this not to be true (and, if anything, it is probably less “white” than many Protestant denominations), but you cannot deny that so much of Church tradition, which saints we tend to honor, etc. is rooted in Europe. As a non-European, I have trouble feeling truly at home and accepted in the Church for everything that I am. This extends to everything from the fact that I am in the single state of life against my will to the fact that I am extremely isolated in a predominately white parish.
• The fact that doing so much as taking a break from the Church to reflect on these things puts me in some sort of mortal peril. Questioning the Church’s teachings is a sin or means you just don’t understand well enough. There is absolutely no room in Catholicism for debate or hesitancy or questioning. You either accept everything, or you don’t truly love God and you’re out. Getting in line with Church teachings seems to be placed way above seeking Truth, no matter where it might be found.

The fact that if I try to consult any Catholic source on these questions (religious, spiritual director, etc.), they’ll just tell me that the only place to be is the Church and that stepping outside the lines for even a second is way worse than trying to discern what God is saying concerns me. I have always been a bit concerned about Catholics leave-and-you-are-condemned mindset. Why don’t we consider that God may be speaking outside the Church? Why don’t we try to help each person live out the fullness of their life in Christ, whether they are in the Church or not?

Please…the only thing that I ask of anyone who responds here…please consider each of these questions as honestly and humanly as possible. I don’t believe that any of these things are supposed to be shut down easily with a Bible verse or Catechism reference. Perhaps we could try to discuss these things keeping in mind the spirit of who each of us understand God to be…I know I have in writing these questions out. I’ve done my best to say what’s on my heart rather than trying to present the “correct” answers or statements.

Thank you in advance to anyone who offers their thoughts here, or even anyone who reads this without disregarding it immediately. God Bless you all

You seriously need to talk to a priest and do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church?? If not, get one!! And you should also read Humanae Vita. Better yet, study it!! You may get some confusing opinions from some of us. God Bless, Memaw

 

[joeybaggz]

I have always been a bit concerned about Catholics leave-and-you-are-condemned mindset. Why don’t we consider that God may be speaking outside the Church? Why don’t we try to help each person live out the fullness of their life in Christ, whether they are in the Church or not?:

I once heard an interesting point brought up in a sermon by a very learned priest. It answered for me (at least) the question of salvation outside the RCC.

In the incident of the young rich man who asks Jesus, “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus’ reply is simply, “obey the commandments.” and then enumerates the social commandments.

What was interesting in the sermon was that the priest said that there is a period after Jesus’s admonition. Maybe one of the most important period in Scripture, the speaker said. True, more is said, but if the young man had simply said, Thank you Rabbi, after Jesus’ answer and went away, Jesus would not have run after the young man to say more. No, to have eternal life, obey the commandments. I take this to mean that all who obey the Ten Commandments, (or even the Golden Rule - which is actually the Ten in short form) will enjoy eternal life.

It answered for me the question of denominationalism. Salvation applies to all who obey God’s fundamental laws. And I believe Pope John Paul II wrote a book (I think it was “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” but I could be mistaken) in which he showed that the love, mercy, and salvation of God is for all humanity.

As to your other questions, I understand your angst. Intellectually, I can understand where you are coming from. Being single, I wish that I could enjoy physical intimacy with a woman, but I choose to live in accordance with what the Church (badly) teaches about the sacred nature of the expression of human sexuality. The question of SSA? Well as they say in the military, “that’s way above my pay grade.”

But I choose the wisdom of the RCC over my own feelings. Call it carrying my own cross, or simple faith and maybe humility. I don’t know. But the church is infallible in its teaching. Simply put, it means one cannot go wrong following Her precepts. Can one disagree, yes, one’s conscience is recognized by the Church as of prime importance for the faithful.

Good luck in your search.

Shalom

 

[1Lord1Faith]

In response to the comments about single, secular life I fully understand that it does not have to be a lonely, isolated life…but only if that is your call. I have known some people who have been very full and satisfied as singles- I don’t think that this cannot be so at all. I have also known other people like me who are not full and satisfied in the single life…because it is not a call from God on our lives but rather a result of the fallen world, free will, and the sinful nature of human beings.

Regarding natural law: if one man, one woman etc. is natural law, why is it the foundation of the argument against same sex relationships? Shouldn’t the basis of such an argument be a supernatural source? And how is natural law a reliable source for the argument on marriage but not when we are working through questions of faith?

The whole “if you’re doubting, the only answer is…to get closer to the Church” position is part of what concerns me because it is completely founded on the assumption that the Church is the only place where Truth can be found. But what if that is the precise point that you are doubting? To answer your question, I do not plan to stop going to Mass, Adoration, etc. but possibly not receiving the Sacrament may be in order for the time being. Again, however, the assumption is that Truth can only be found in the Church and I think that is where my central question is: is grace only given to humanity through the Catholic Church or can it be given anywhere (without necessarily eventually leading to the Church)? When we say ‘the Church’ do we have to mean the Catholic Church or is this meant to be taken more broadly?

Again, I very much appreciate the thoughtfulness of your responses

All of your questions are normal. Looking for the answers to them is not a sin. You are in fact indicating that you yourself are interested in joining your heart with God’s…very good.

Many Catholics have hardened hearts because they never allowed themselves to find the answers to those sorts of questions - think about the brother of the prodigal son. You don’t need to leave the Church to find the answers, but allow yourself some freedom to not be scrupulous. Obedience alone has never been Christ’s intent, and it is not the Church’s intent either. Take a balanced approach in your journey so that you do not fall into despair or think that you are not being listened to or heard.

 

[grannymh]

.

• The Sacraments are for Catholics in a state of grace only.

The popular Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation is for those not in the State of Sanctifying Grace.

Obviously, those people looking for future help will grab the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation when they are in the State of Sanctifying Grace.

 

[twf]

Come here to Vancouver and you won’t imagine for a moment that Catholicism is “white” or European… many parishes are predominantly Asian now, particularly Filipino. St Patrick’s Parish, which was originally Irish, is now predominantly Filipino. Catholicism takes on a very different “flavour” if you travel through Latin America, Africa, or the Philippines.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

There are a few teachings in particular:

1. • Faith and works. If Christ died for our salvation, why are we still in this sort of limbo state of “well, sorta” but never, ever good enough for Him? Deep down, I believe that God’s love goes so beyond anything that we can say or do that it could extend to any human being on the planet, in any way. I have trouble accepting that we need to do xyz when it is God who offers us salvation.
     2.- Same-sex mutual commitment is sinful. I am a single woman in her 30s and I wouldn’t wish the loneliness and isolation of wanting to give oneself to another so badly, yet being left alone on my worst enemy. I have learned a lot from the teachings of the Church on sexuality and intimacy…but I cannot reconcile that, say, a same sex couple who wishes to commit themselves to one another and love one another (yes, including physical intimacy) is committing a sin, and that a life of isolation and separation is preferable, especially when there is the chance for mutual commitment. I do agree with the Church when it comes to intimacy outside of such a commitment- but I have a hard time accepting that commitment and love is less preferable to isolation, no matter who is involved.
     3.- The Sacraments are for Catholics in a state of grace only. This is somewhat related to my first comment. I have struggled with the idea that God only gives Himself to those who have dotted all the I’s and crossed all the t’s. I cannot imagine that He limits his grace this way…why wouldn’t He offer the Sacraments to anyone who comes to Him? Imagine a world where we could all be truly united, whoever we are, wherever we come from. Where we could all receive the Sacraments if we just come to Him?
     4.- So much of Church tradition rooted in European society and culture. I am not from a European background and, quite frankly, before I came into the Church my perspective (as well as that of much of my family) was that it is a “white” Church. Now I know this not to be true (and, if anything, it is probably less “white” than many Protestant denominations), but you cannot deny that so much of Church tradition, which saints we tend to honor, etc. is rooted in Europe. As a non-European, I have trouble feeling truly at home and accepted in the Church for everything that I am. This extends to everything from the fact that I am in the single state of life against my will to the fact that I am extremely isolated in a predominately white parish.
     5.- The fact that doing so much as taking a break from the Church to reflect on these things puts me in some sort of mortal peril. Questioning the Church’s teachings is a sin or means you just don’t understand well enough. There is absolutely no room in Catholicism for debate or hesitancy or questioning. You either accept everything, or you don’t truly love God and you’re out. Getting in line with Church teachings seems to be placed way above seeking Truth, no matter where it might be found.
2. Why don’t we consider that God may be speaking outside the Church? Why don’t we try to help each person live out the fullness of their life in Christ, whether they are in the Church or not?

lGod Bless you all

God bless you on your journey home. We are all pilgrims on the way home. Home is Heaven.

If we don’t completely purify ourselves on earth ( and really only saints do IMHO) , we complete purification in Purgatory.

I came back to the Church last year, after decades away. So my perspective is from the point of view, one day ignoring God, the next day with God.

1. Jesus took on our sins and died so the order of eternal life could be restored. We can do nothing on our own. We are helpless. We pray for graces to become more holy and closer to God.

See the suffering of Jesus in His Passion, in the suffering of people in the street, on the news, in your home or community.

1. Fornication is fornication, whatever form it takes. Marriage is a Sacrament and has a specific set of purposes. Single people, ( not married) , are called to Chastity. It’s one of the Commandments, as is thou shalt not murder. Same deal.
2. We can just go to God. The Sacrament of Communion is for those in a state of Grace. To get there, just go to the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. It’s that simple.
   We take the Body and Blood, soul and divinity of God into our heart with each Communion. Jesus said to Saint Faustina how much it hurts Him when people take Communion and they just ignore Him.
3. It’s not a white Church. It’s a global Church. Read Church History. Many missionaries today are from India and Africa.
4. We accept God. We accept the Holy Spirit guides and teaches the Church. It’s not a democracy. Our Holy Father is the Vicar of Christ on earth. He has the final say. We accept and learn teachings of the Church with docility. Put aside what we don’t understand and pray for clarity over it.
5. God speaks everywhere. Do we listen? Jesus made Peter His rock and established the True Church with Peter. God guides all.

 

[venite_adoremus]

Also a convert. I’ll focus briefly on the “faith not works” problem, then move on to a couple of the others in another post.

Ephesians 2:8 is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted passages of Paul’s writings. Take it in context, of what he was writing about to them, to the Galatians, to others. For by grace are you saved through faith. Period. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Period. Not of works [of the Law], lest any man should boast. Period. Paul contrasted “grace through faith” with both “works of self” and “works of the law,” that is to say the Old Covenant. He was writing to early Hebrew converts, not Gentile in this case.

So what is really being said here? This new thing, which we’re calling “grace”, was an old word with a newly coined meaning. Consider words our generation has invented. Astronaut. Internet. Tweet. Post. Friend. These are all words which existed before, but which a new development imbued with a new meaning.

Let me say it again for you. Paul contrasted “grace through faith” with “works of self” and “works of the law.” One brings salvation through Jesus Christ. The others do not. Faith is an avenue to grace. He emphasizes elsewhere, in 1 Corinthians 13, that there are other avenues to grace as well: hope and charity. And of these, the greatest is charity. Therefore, he says, make love your aim. However, it’s not easy. Since faith was the easiest to achieve, and was a gift of God (as were the others), Paul wrote about that a lot to his listeners.

All right, show me the sources of this “grace through faith.” Again, labeled by the Church, an old word with a newly coined meaning: “sacramentum” (let’s understand it as “sacred means”)–a word which in cognate has come down directly to us by way of the French language.

James confuses the issue. By my works I will show you my faith. True, once the Christian enters the realm of grace, good things happen. The good things happening are the fruits of salvation, not the source of it. They are signs. I am able to believe. I am able to have hope. I am able to help my neighbor, and love my neighbor as myself.

Pray each day for an increase in faith, hope, and love. The Church has excellent prayers for you to use.

 

[venite_adoremus]

Why are the Sacraments within the Church open only to members? Why do we practice so-called “closed” Communion, for example? Because of the very nature of the Sacraments. Each and every one of them is an encounter with God, with Jesus. Confirmation, for example, really and truly pours out the Holy Spirit into the souls of those that believe. It can be received once in a lifetime. The Sacrament of Matrimony (now in my 37th year enjoying this one) allows a husband and a wife to minister the graces of salvation to each other, from that first hug in the morning to the last one at night. The Sacrament of Baptism removes the effects of original sin, the original gulf of separation between humans and God, and makes it possible to receive all the others.

Of these, baptism and matrimony can be (and many thousands of times a day are!) received by Christians outside the Catholic ecclesial communion. Catholics recognize Lutheran baptism. Catholics recognize Episcopalian marriages. The union between two baptised Christians of any denomination is as indissoluble as a Catholic union–just as sacramental.

That there is a divide between us and other non-Catholic Christians is a matter of historical record, and one I won’t rehearse here. The three aspects of unity are sacrament, creed, and governance. Get outside all of those realms, and eventually there’s a road sign that reads, “no, not Christian any more.” I’m thinking specifically here of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons, but that would be a detour.

Getting back to the Eucharist, which may be your chief bone of contention: it’s a family meal. It’s the outward sign of the inward and spiritual grace of union, body blood soul and divinity, with Jesus. And with each other. It is difficult to accept that we reserve reception of the sacred elements to those who conform with our creed, with our belief in the sacraments, with our governance (the Holy Father and the bishops). It is what it is, a communion. With the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. It has always been reserved for those who have died to Him in baptism, come to understand Him through catechesis, and pledged their faith. It’s not for light and transient reasons we all recite the Nicene Creed together on Sundays.

In danger of death, many people have received Catholic communion, but always with the understanding that they accept what the Church teaches and believes: transubstantiation has occurred, the bread and wine have actually become the body and blood of Jesus.

Staying away? If you have serious doubts, keep attending Mass but refrain from Holy Communion. You have been confirmed, I presume. The Holy Spirit’s gifts are available to you. Ask for them. The gift of understanding and knowledge would be good right about now. I’ll check back.

 

[newcalling]

I am also a convert (2015) and formerly an interfaith minister. I know you’ve received many fine answers, but if I may give my own perspective on these questions:

1. It is Grace which saves us, but Yeshua (Jesus) taught us to live a certain way to get into Heaven.
   Matthew 19:16-19 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
   17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
   18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
   19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He also taught us that when “the sheep are separated from the goats” it will be those who did good to fellow humans who are welcomed into Paradise.

Ultimately, all the good works in the world could not save our souls but for the Love of Christ and God’s Grace, but we are also told how to live worthy of that Grace.

1. I honestly cannot address the same sex marriage question. I used to perform same sex unions along with opposite sex marriages. I just accept that I’m not going to get married to another man, and I won’t teach one way or the other to anyone else (there’s plenty of voices in the church for that.)
2. Certain sacraments are for Catholics in a state of Grace. Obviously, at baptism one isn’t always in a state of Grace, and confession/reconciliation (also a sacrament) is precisely because one is not in a state of Grace. The reason is in the word “sacrament” itself; something sacred. The Eucharist, the main sacrament of the church, is reserved for Catholics in a state of Grace because they are taking in the literal body and blood of our Lord, and one’s soul should be prepared. Paul talked about it in 1 Corinthians 11:27

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)

1. If you were in California, you might get the impression that Catholicism is primarily Hispanic/Latino. In Africa, where Catholicism is thriving and where I have good friends who are native African Catholic priests and monks, you would be sure it’s an African Christian religion. It is catholic, which means all encompassing, and there are diverse cultural influences on worship in diverse regions of the world. Traveling around the United States alone can give one an eclectic view of Catholicism.
2. Mortal peril is a tricky one, because only God can judge. The Church says there are certain things we must do, and if we do them they will help us to walk closely with God. Because they are so necessary to our journey, the church has made some things (such as Sunday Mass attendance) mandatory. Now, no one else knows your heart, so we can’t say how culpable another person is for their sins. There are strict requirements for the Church to consider something a mortal sin, and various things such as mental health issues, misunderstandings where one doesn’t realize one is in mortal sin, and other mitigating factors we might not even know of. As to questioning teaching; we can question it all we want, so long as we respect the Church’s authority and obey even when we don’t understand and think we disagree. We trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Pope, cardinals, and other church leaders to teach truth.

 

[Reuben_J]

Come here to Vancouver and you won’t imagine for a moment that Catholicism is “white” or European… many parishes are predominantly Asian now, particularly Filipino. St Patrick’s Parish, which was originally Irish, is now predominantly Filipino. Catholicism takes on a very different “flavour” if you travel through Latin America, Africa, or the Philippines.

You are quite right and sadly too.

Most of white Europe and America and Australia have stopped being Catholics. Through the course of my life in where I traveled widely, our churches were practically empty. During Sunday mass, the congregations were made nearly entirely of grayish population, people in their sixties, seventies and eighties, with very little young people.

The worry is what happen after these generations die away? We have to start anew. The present generation, their young and their parents, are simply more interested in watching football or lying in bed on Sundays.

Have never stopped praying that God will send forth His Holy Spirit to renew His people.

 

[grannymh]

You are quite right and sadly too.

Most of white Europe and America and Australia have stopped being Catholics. Through the course of my life in where I traveled widely, our churches were practically empty. During Sunday mass, the congregations were made nearly entirely of grayish population, people in their sixties, seventies and eighties, with very little young people.

The worry is what happen after these generations die away? We have to start anew. The present generation, their young and their parents, are simply more interested in watching football or lying in bed on Sundays.

Have never stopped praying that God will send forth His Holy Spirit to renew His people.

Maybe Traditional Catholicism is the answer.