honor of women in islam

[ralphinal]

That would be forbidden, and totally inappropriate behavior.

Ok. I guess that is in the Koran?

Again, why is it possible that a man would need more than one woman to satisfy him but there is not a chance that a woman would not need multiple men? All people have different sex drives. There are women who want and need sex more than men. Why are they denyed multiple husbands to satisfy them?

Here’s the thing. How would you feel if your wife decided to travel somewhere, and she didn’t tell you about it, she just left? And then something happened to her? I am not sure how this “permission” thing is enforced in KSA, and honestly I think they overexaggerate it, so I won’t defend them entirely as I think they are extreme on this issue. However, please just look at where they are coming from. A man is responsible for taking care of his family. It is his responsibility to keep them safe. And if a woman is going out and about without telling her husband, it MIGHT not be safe, and ESPECIALLY if she is travelling a long distance.

This makes sense. But discussion is not the same as permission. What if he says no? Even if everything is on her dime, and he says no.

And if she is travelling a long distance, there are things which need to be considered–what if he needs her there for some reason? What if the children will need her there? Will any children be taken care of? How long will she be gone and does she have safe travel and lodging arrangements? Getting “permission” from the husband is not supposed to be a restriction which limits the freedom of movement for women, it’s supposed to be natural communication between a husband and a wife.

Again, discussion is not the same as permission. Does the man need a woman’s permission to travel? BEsides, something in what you wrote implies that a woman cannot be safe without a man. It also reads like a woman cannot be expected to make all the plans for a trip. I know this is not what you mean.

I think I have heard some scholars say that a woman does NOT necessarily need her male relative’s approval to go on HAJJ, but I think it’s the minority opinion. He is supposed to let her, though, which most agree on. The other issue is travelling alone, and the scholars disagree on that as well.

SO much disagreement, how can non-Muslims know what is what? How can Muslims?

But I want this point to sink in–there is supposed to be communication and consultatoin between a husband and a wife. It’s not sensible that one would leave without telling the other, and especially as the husband is in charge of taking care of the wife, it’s proper that a woman tell her husband of her intentions to travel and that if she is able to do so safely without damaging himself or the family in the process, he ought to allow her.

Again, ought. If he says no, is it over?

Correct. Any penny she earns from working, or anything she inherits, belongs to her alone. If she dies, then her husband and children may inherit from her, naturally, but they have no entitlement to it while she is alive, not even during a divorce. The only exception is the dowry–a man gives a woman a sum of money as a gift at the beginning of the marriage. If the woman initiates the divorce, she returns it, but if the man initiates the divorce, she keeps it. The man pays to support her for 3 months or so and then she’s on her own (returns to family), but the man should continue to pay for the support of the children.

The property is not split in a divorce like it is here in the West. Imagine the injustice of a man who would marry a woman simply to gain her wealth. He could marry, and then divorce her, and get half her money! That’s not fair at all, is it?

Not fair but it happens both ways in America.

 

[ralphinal]

Are men enslaved as well, then? In the same countries where women are mutilated in their childhood, where they are raped by soldiers? There is no defense of that. It’s just wrong, in everyone’s book, and for the love of God it needs to be stopped.

Yes, men are enslaved, but at a much, much lower rate. Yes, most of these are the same countries that have FGM. Yes, it is wrong, but why haven’t Muslims stopped the practices? Why get in a riot over a teddy bear named Muhammed when some guy named Muhammed mutilates his daughter one nation over?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Shows what you know. They WANT teachers to teach in English!!

Shows what I know that you have to be fluent in their language (which you are not) in order for you to teach them english.

No they’re not. Only forced to partially support them.

A father’s full financial PORTION.

Here it is: It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever has two wives and leans towards (i.e. favours) one of them (over the other), will come on the Day of Resurrection with half of his body leaning.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2/242; al-Tirmidhi, 3/447; al-Nasaa’i, 7/64; Ibn Maajah, 1/633; classed as saheeh by al-Haafiz in Buloogh al-Maraam, 3/310, and al-Albaani in Irwaa’ al-Ghaleel, 7/80).

Also “Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: We know of no dispute among the scholars concerning the fact that it is obligatory to treat co-wives equally when sharing one’s time between them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “and live with them honourably” [al-Nisaa’ 4:19], but favouring one of them is not honourable.”

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/13740

doesnt say that marital injustice is a major sin. you were just exaggerating.

 

[R_not]

I’m not a scholar, and I have never claimed to be one. My knowledge of Islam is deficient in many regards and I often proclaim that I do not know the answer to a question.

But on this particular topic–women in Islam–scholarly knowledge isn’t what I attempt to convey as much as I do my perspective. And that is where I promote the value of talking to me–a Muslim woman–over non-Muslim men whose interaction with Muslims is minimal.

I’ve read these sites–faithfreedom, frontpagemag, islamreview, etc., you’re not going to surprise me with what they say. But it’s my OPINION that they don’t prove anything about Islam, really. What they do (FACT) is pull quotes out of context, with varying degrees of authenticity, and then (MY OPINION) describe the “worst case scenario” implementation of those quotes.

I try to offer you the context, the authenticity (to be fair, it is very seldom that non-authentic quotes are brought up here), and the proper implementation in society, and then how I feel about it, and then how it isn’t so evil as it those sites suggested.

It certainly is something when we are told that quotes from the koran and hadiths are non-authentic - but not given the examples of which ones she speaks of.

But, this is for those muslim women who pretend, or are really, ignorant.

ibaradio.org/Islam/living_islam/LIC.htm

 

[AgnosTheist]

Some may think from my posts that I hate Islam. I hate most of what I believe to be true about Islam, I may be wrong. Please rationally prove this if so.

Please make the distinction between the religion and the culture.

religion is culture. i suppose you want a distinction between religious culture and non-religious culture. that depends on the region. for example in north africa the veiling of women is religious culture, but female circumcision is non-religious culture which muslims there sees as tolerable in islam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ok. I guess that is in the Koran?

Bear with me here–there are about 18 different “sources” of Islamic legislation, total. Four of them are agreed upon, and used by all major schools. Most rulings (laws) are derived from these four: the Qur’an, the Sunnah (i.e., Hadith), the Consensus of Companions/Scholars (ijmaa) , and Legal Analogy (qiyaas). The Qur’an is not a legal code, like a consitution. It is one source of the law–the first, most absolute and binding source, but it isn’t the only one. So something doesn’t have to be expilcitly stated in the Qur’an in order to be law.

For a man to be intimate with both his wives at the same time violates several injunctions. Among them, a certain amount that women are supposed to cover in front of other women, fairness between his wives means giving each her night, and not being intimate with the second during the first’s time, and highly improper behavior for his wives. It’s really kind of sick to even bring this up, but Islamic Law is very clear that such a thing would not be allowed.

Again, why is it possible that a man would need more than one woman to satisfy him but there is not a chance that a woman would not need multiple men? All people have different sex drives. There are women who want and need sex more than men. Why are they denyed multiple husbands to satisfy them?

First of all, sexual incompatibility is a valid, legitimate reason for divorce. The purpose of polygyny is NOT so that a man would be more sexually satisfied. There are many other reasons it has been allowed, but sexual satisfaction is not one I read about in Islamic sources, so this argument of yours isn’t valid.

This makes sense. But discussion is not the same as permission. What if he says no? Even if everything is on her dime, and he says no.

Doesn’t that seem to you that he is abusing his right?

Again, discussion is not the same as permission. Does the man need a woman’s permission to travel? BEsides, something in what you wrote implies that a woman cannot be safe without a man. It also reads like a woman cannot be expected to make all the plans for a trip. I know this is not what you mean.

I myself travel, without a male companion, and without permission. My dad is afraid for me when I travel, though (he’s not Muslim), because he thinks that people will attack me because I’m wearing a headscarf. Do you understand his sentiment? Today in the USA it’s pretty easy and safe for women to travel alone. It isn’t like that everywhere in the world, and it hasn’t been like that throughout history.

SO much disagreement, how can non-Muslims know what is what? How can Muslims?

There is scholarly dispute on MANY issues in Islam–which means that there isn’t one right answer. The scholars derive different rulings from different sources, with different priority, and for different situations. The variation is a mercy of Islam, that a person won’t be held to something too difficult for him.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Yes, men are enslaved, but at a much, much lower rate. Yes, most of these are the same countries that have FGM. Yes, it is wrong, but why haven’t Muslims stopped the practices? Why get in a riot over a teddy bear named Muhammed when some guy named Muhammed mutilates his daughter one nation over?

Don’t you think that if Muslims had the power to stop it, that they would have?

Do you think that the influx of weapons from “Christian” countries is helping? The exploitation of wartorn countries? There are many Christians in these same African countries where you see this–it has nothing to do with Islam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Shows what I know that you have to be fluent in their language (which you are not) in order for you to teach them english.

You wish. You didn’t even read what I said. I told you they want teachers to TEACH IN English, not to teach THEM English.

Although they do want people to teach English as well–and MANY expats are hired for that ask, even though they can’t speak Arabic. So that is another possibility.

A father’s full financial PORTION.

In Islam the father is responsible for 100% support of the child.

doesnt say that marital injustice is a major sin. you were just exaggerating.

No I wasn’t. You haven’t been paying attention. Read carefully:

A major sin is one which is (a) called a major sin in hadith/qur’an, (b) has a prescribed punishment in this life, or the next life.

A man who is injust between his wives will be punished in the next life. Therefore it is a major sin.

 

[Booklover]

There is scholarly dispute on MANY issues in Islam–which means that there isn’t one right answer. The scholars derive different rulings from different sources, with different priority, and for different situations. The variation is a mercy of Islam, that a person won’t be held to something too difficult for him.

If Islam is from God as Muslims claim, why is there so much confusion and misunderstandings?

Vickie

 

[planten]

**The Most Blessed Virgin Mary DID NOT give birth to any other children but Jesus. **This is a reason she is a true virgin.

Granted, there are brothers and sisters of Jesus mentioned in the Bible. However, the name “brothers and sisters” was also used for cousins. People specifically called brothers are later named as sons of the other Mary. Also, from the cross Jesus gave care of Mary to his beloved apostle John. If there were any other brothers or sisters, that care would automatically become their responsibility. And Jesus’ words to John “This is your mother” would be an insult to any biological children she had.

Thank you for your respect for the Mother of Jesus. We know enough about her life to consider her the first among the saints. Her last recorded words were “Do whatever He says”. This is an admonition to us all.

**You say:
The Most Blessed Virgin Mary DID NOT give birth to any other children but Jesus. At least I would like to confirm from all the Catholics here that mother Mary did not give birth to any other child except Jesus. Will you please reply and give a reply in consensus on this matter.

Because I have read in the bible some sentence which said, “How come he is so wise, Is he not that Jesus the son of the carpentar whose sisters are in our houses (meaning the sisters are married to the people)”

That info in the bible OT states that the sisters of Jesus were married to people in the area. Can you find that verse and explain please?**

 

[R_not]

Don’t you think that if Muslims had the power to stop it, that they would have?

Do you think that the influx of weapons from “Christian” countries is helping? The exploitation of wartorn countries? There are many Christians in these same African countries where you see this–it has nothing to do with Islam.

Blame the Christians, or anyone else, for the poor behavior of muslims - it seems you are learning very well.

Slavery in our lands had its help by muslims in fact. The slave traders went to Africa to pick them up and they were rounded up by the muslims there. And when we stopped it - muslims did not.

In the late 1960s, saudi arabia signed an agreement to stop slavery. Well, as with all agreements with infidels - muslims did not stop the slave trade and it is alive and well.

Boys are indeed made into slaves and they are often castrated. some even have their penises cut off if they are going to be in contact with other wives and women slaves. Male, and also female, slaves are usually cast off when they are of no use and usually they gather around the mosques to get handouts because in muslim countries these people cannot get a job.

I have posted this several times, and all one has to do is do a search using ‘slavery in islam’, or look in jihadwatch for some archived stories.

answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

Also saudis found out that they cannot bring their slaves here to the states or they get put in jail. do a search for yourself on ‘saudi denver slave’. And muslims can do anything they want with their slaves - it is a-ok since they are only infidels.

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011826.php

or if you don’t like jihadwatch, here is another website, take note of the saudi’s words on slavery A Muslim finally admitted rape and slavery of women are “basic Muslim behaviors.”:
debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/09/typical_saudi_m.html

the denial is sort of getting smarmy when the facts are out there and muslims don’t want to admit it because it isn’t happening in their 4 walls of their house - yet.

And the difference between it happening here and it happening in muslim nations - we have laws while muslim laws sanction slavery - as it sanctions doing anything that they want to do to infidels.

mohammed had slaves, he and his band of followers got them after they killed off the men and boys ‘with hair’ and passed them around as booty. this is the guy that they follow.

I would say that history is sorely lacking in muslim minds.

 

[Booklover]

Words of wisdom by Arab-American psychiatrist Wafa Sultan:

Wafa Sultan: When I examined the Koran, the hadith, and the Islamic books under a microscope, I came to the absolute conviction that it is impossible – impossible! – for any human being to read the biography of Muhammad and believe in it, and yet emerge a psychologically and mentally healthy person.

…]
Do you remember the way that [the Prophet Muhammad] killed ‘Asmaa bint Marwan? His followers tore her body apart limb from limb, while she was breastfeeding her child. When they returned to him shouting “Allah Akbar,” he said: “No two goats will lock horns over her.” As you know, goals lock horns over the most inconsequential thing. For Muhammad, however, the killing of a woman while breastfeeding was too trivial a reason for goats “to lock horns over.” Is this a prophet of God?

When Islam considers women to be deficient in reason, and I refute this assertion – in that case Islam attacks me, and I am merely attacking back. When Islam calls to kill whoever does not believe in it, and I refute this, in that case Islam attacks me, and I am merely attacking back. I do not attack Islam. I criticize it, but unfortunately, we, the victims of Islamic upbringing, view any criticism as an attack.

I** always focus on the language – the language of Islam. The language of Islam is a negative, dead language, replete with violence, anger, hatred, and racism**. Man is the product of language, the outcome of the negative and positive language to which he is exposed in this lifetime. If his life is dominated by negative language, he will emerge as a negative, reckless, and non-productive person, who rejects everything. On the other hand, if positive language dominates his life, he will emerge as a positive, happy, and productive person. This is why the negative language of Islam has failed. It has failed to produce people with a spontaneous and positive outlook. It has produced negative people. If we take a look at Islamic societies, we see what that negative man did.
…]
I do not view Islam as a religion – according to my notion of religion. Islam is a political doctrine, which imposes itself by force. Any doctrine whatsoever that calls to kill those who do not believe in it is not a religion. It is a totalitarian doctrine that imposes itself by force. When I read, for example, the verse: “The adulterer and the adulteress – flog each of them with a hundred stripes, and do not let compassion for them move you” - I do not discern any spirituality in this verse. Whena certain faith manages to can strip its believers of their last grain of compassion, it strips them of their spirituality as well.

…]
Jesus Christ is the symbol of peace. He did not carry a sword, chop off heads, or accuse anybody of heresy. The problem in Islam is that if we were to act similarly to the Christians of the Middle Ages, and we were to model our lives after the life, actions, and words of Muhammad, we would find ourselves in an even bigger mess than the one we are in, and we would end up like Osama Bin Laden and his ilk. Read about the life of Muhammad. What do you find there? Nothing but his raids and his wives, in addition to his hadiths, some of which make you shudder. I shudder when I hear the hadith: “A woman’s paradise is under her husband’s foot.”

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Don’t you think that if Muslims had the power to stop it, that they would have?

It isn’t stopped because it’s sanctioned by Islam same as honor killings!

Do you think that the influx of weapons from “Christian” countries is helping? The exploitation of wartorn countries? There are many Christians in these same African countries where you see this–it has nothing to do with Islam.

Typical Muslim ploy to blame everyone else for their shortcomings!

Vickie

 

[Lapell]

You say:
The Most Blessed Virgin Mary DID NOT give birth to any other children but Jesus. At least I would like to confirm from all the Catholics here that mother Mary did not give birth to any other child except Jesus. Will you please reply and give a reply in consensus on this matter.

Because I have read in the bible some sentence which said, “How come he is so wise, Is he not that Jesus the son of the carpentar whose sisters are in our houses (meaning the sisters are married to the people)”

That info in the bible OT states that the sisters of Jesus were married to people in the area. Can you find that verse and explain please?

From what we understand, planten, it was the custom to use the same word for “brother” and for “a parent” (cousin, uncle, nephew). Same with the expression used for “sister”… I understand that in Africa they do the same thing even nowadays!

 

[AgnosTheist]

You wish. You didn’t even read what I said. I told you they want teachers to TEACH IN English, not to teach THEM English.

Oh ok.

In Islam the father is responsible for 100% support of the child.

Thats the theory. In practice nowadays many muslim couples are both working.

(b) has a prescribed punishment in this life, or the next life.

did Mohammad say that? which koranic or hadith verse?

 

[Lapell]

Don’t you think that if Muslims had the power to stop it, that they would have?

Do you think that the influx of weapons from “Christian” countries is helping? The exploitation of wartorn countries? There are many Christians in these same African countries where you see this–it has nothing to do with Islam.

Sister Amy, I don’t think you’re trying to pass the bucket to the Christians… but with such examples limited to Christians, you kinda help people having such impression.

 

[Lapell]

Sister Amy, I don’t think you’re trying to pass the bucket to the Christians… but with such examples limited to Christians, you kinda help people having such impression.

And I don’t mean only those who have consistent spoken against Islam in general in this thread and other threads before!

 

[Lapell]

From what we understand, planten, it was the custom to use the same word for “brother” and for “a parent” (cousin, uncle, nephew). Same with the expression used for “sister”… I understand that in Africa they do the same thing even nowadays!

Only you won’t accept the reason why the Catholic states that Mary had physically given birth only to Jesus. It implies something that the Qor’an fully disagrees with. Even if it could be possible in the case Jesus would not be the Son of God (and God the Son)…

 

[AgnosTheist]

Sister Amy,

May I ask you two things:

1. What do you think are the Advantages of Polygamy over Monogamy, for women.
2. What do you think are the Disadvantages of Polygamy over Monogamy, for women.

Thanks.

 

[ralphinal]

Bear with me here–there are about 18 different “sources” of Islamic legislation, total. Four of them are agreed upon, and used by all major schools. Most rulings (laws) are derived from these four: the Qur’an, the Sunnah (i.e., Hadith), the Consensus of Companions/Scholars (ijmaa) , and Legal Analogy (qiyaas). The Qur’an is not a legal code, like a consitution. It is one source of the law–the first, most absolute and binding source, but it isn’t the only one. So something doesn’t have to be expilcitly stated in the Qur’an in order to be law.

For a man to be intimate with both his wives at the same time violates several injunctions. Among them, a certain amount that women are supposed to cover in front of other women, fairness between his wives means giving each her night, and not being intimate with the second during the first’s time, and highly improper behavior for his wives. It’s really kind of sick to even bring this up, but Islamic Law is very clear that such a thing would not be allowed.

Ok. that is fair. How do oyu guys decide which set of ideas to follow?

First of all, sexual incompatibility is a valid, legitimate reason for divorce. The purpose of polygyny is NOT so that a man would be more sexually satisfied. There are many other reasons it has been allowed, but sexual satisfaction is not one I read about in Islamic sources, so this argument of yours isn’t valid.

Why would a man want multiple wives? Honestly, they are not worth the trouble, no offense.

Doesn’t that seem to you that he is abusing his right?

Yes, and that is what I am getting at. Are there inherent protections for women within Islamic teachings and laws or is the man final authority over his wife. I am not talking about violence or anything like that.

I myself travel, without a male companion, and without permission. My dad is afraid for me when I travel, though (he’s not Muslim), because he thinks that people will attack me because I’m wearing a headscarf. Do you understand his sentiment? Today in the USA it’s pretty easy and safe for women to travel alone. It isn’t like that everywhere in the world, and it hasn’t been like that throughout history.

I understand what your father is thinking. Your case is unique in that you are now Muslim in a land with a Muslim minorty and a good bit of misunderstandings going around.

There is scholarly dispute on MANY issues in Islam–which means that there isn’t one right answer. The scholars derive different rulings from different sources, with different priority, and for different situations. The variation is a mercy of Islam, that a person won’t be held to something too difficult for him.

If there isn’t any one right answer, how are any answers valid? There must be absolute truth. Somethings are either right or wrong.

The too difficult concept is common among Muslim posters. Does that mean that if it is too difficult to pray as ordered, we don’t have to do it? Are there limits to the too dificult concept?