honor of women in islam

[Sister_Amy]

Mohammad himself or the ones ascribing this statement to him were most likely unaware of the Koran verse that allowed Muslim men to beat their wives.

So doubtful I don’t even think it’s possible.

Christianity has no book of Law with rules and precepts that prohibit some acts and endorse some others. Your starting point is faulty.

Right then. So Christianity doesn’t do anything to prevent a man from beating his wife. Not my problem.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What’s up with this quote? Calling women unreliable? Women’s testimony is only worth half of the men. Sounds crazy. My mama would respectfully disagree.

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her.

It doesn’t say a woman’s testimony is worth half of a man’s. In fact, this is only dealing with the witness to a financial transaction–Islam requires witnesses in case there is ever a dispute. And because it was more common for men to deal with these transactions, it says two men, or a man and two women because the women weren’t as familiar with it.

But if a long time passed, and there arose a dispute about the transaction, and the man had died and one of the woman, then the remaining woman’s testimony would be taken (alone) as more reliable than anyone else’s testimony regarding the dispute of that transaction. You see, her testimony isn’t worth half. It’s worth the same.

And in other cases, where women have more familiarity than men (like in matters dealing with birth and other womens issues) it’s likely that the testimony of one woman will be taken over the testimony of any man, or any number of men.

 

[swariffin]

It doesn’t say a woman’s testimony is worth half of a man’s. In fact, this is only dealing with the witness to a financial transaction–Islam requires witnesses in case there is ever a dispute. And because it was more common for men to deal with these transactions, it says two men, or a man and two women because the women weren’t as familiar with it.

But if a long time passed, and there arose a dispute about the transaction, and the man had died and one of the woman, then the remaining woman’s testimony would be taken (alone) as more reliable than anyone else’s testimony regarding the dispute of that transaction. You see, her testimony isn’t worth half. It’s worth the same.

And in other cases, where women have more familiarity than men (like in matters dealing with birth and other womens issues) it’s likely that the testimony of one woman will be taken over the testimony of any man, or any number of men.

Does Quran mentioned the word “financial”? Or you just made up your case. How do I know that your explanation will be the same with other muslims I ask? The problem in Islam, you cannot have a single agreement over many Islamic scholars to an Islamic doctrine.

 

[Angelos]

Is english really that hard? It means precisely what you think it means. Women have the same worth before God as men have. They have equal rewards in Paradise for their faith and deeds, and will be equally punished for disbelief and misdeeds. And the verse is 33:35–only don’t read the Yusuf Ali translation because it isn’t accurate. Here’s an ok one:

Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.

Very good try, but to no avail. These verses only mean that men and women WILL BE equal in Heaven and Hell. Thus, Allah does not consider women equal to men on earth as he treats them differently through his law.

Besides, Allah is alleged to address both the community of humans and of jinns in the Surah named Rahman. Does this mean that Allah considers humans and jinns spiritually equal?

 

[Angelos]

So doubtful I don’t even think it’s possible.

Your contradictory statements and allegations make me think it is rather possible though.

Right then. So Christianity doesn’t do anything to prevent a man from beating his wife. Not my problem.

You are responding only to add up to your logical fallacies. The fact that Christianity has no Law to regulate social life does not mean that it allows men to beat their wives or cannot prevent men from such atrocity.

 

[swariffin]

So doubtful I don’t even think it’s possible.

Right then. So Christianity doesn’t do anything to prevent a man from beating his wife. Not my problem.

I doubt that Sister Amy was a Christian before, since she knows nothing about the law of love that Jesus gave (b) Love others as you love yourself. Others can also means wife. In Christianity (especially Catholic) no divorce is allowed.

 

[GraceDK]

Sister Amy,
actually a man that repeatedly sins and will not repent should be ex-communicated from the Christian Church. But if he asks forgiveness both to the church and to his wife and he repents/tirns away from the sin then the Church might deem it fair to give him a second chance. No sin is permissible in Christianity.
Christ shows the horrible reality about sin and its consequence as He dies on the Cross.
If you know the Bible you will also know that a person who comitted incest was thrown out of the first Church.
In Christinity its not allowed to hit someone “a little bit” or lie “a little bit” or something else… as I read somewhere: Jesus would rather die than give the slightest lie. Thats why I dont believe in man, but I believe in Christ.

 

[GraceDK]

I doubt that Sister Amy was a Christian before, since she knows nothing about the law of love that Jesus gave (b) Love others as you love yourself. Others can also means wife. In Christianity (especially Catholic) no divorce is allowed.

Hey Swariffin…
I see you are from Indonesia. I heard of the three Christian women there who were put into prison by angry moslems under false accusations, and hear that Christians have a hard time in generel in Indonesia because of the growing radicalism among Moslems. Whats your experience on that?

 

[AgnosTheist]

So Christianity doesn’t do anything to prevent a man from beating his wife. Not my problem.

Actually their bible does better than that. Here is how:

Eph 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What man beats his own body? No, a man takes very good care of his own body. Thats one good policy which i inherited from christianity and still practices it even though I’m agnostic now. When I treat my wife, I think about how I treat my own flesh. Me & my wife are one.

 

[GraceDK]

Actually their bible does better than that. Here is how:

Eph 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

What man beats his own body? No, a man takes very good care of his own body. Thats one good policy which i inherited from christianity and still practices it even though I’m agnostic now. When I treat my wife, I think about how I treat my own flesh. Me & my wife are one.

what do you mean you are agnostic? could you define that to me?
See, I believe that I am held every moment of life by a personal God who loved me into being and who I owe all knowlege, love, and life… I cannot sustain myself… neither can I explain human ability to love if its not for a personal God who has created us in His Image and also created us the human language to communiate and the capacity to feel and to reason…
Tell me your “spirituality”… and whether this means you have betrayed Jesus… or have you just lost faith in the Church?

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ Last week there was a thread called “I am spiritual, not religious”. Check out my posts there. And post your questions there if you still have one.

Also you can check my old thread called “God gave us reason, not religion”.

 

[ralphinal]

The Koran prohibits alcohol on earth, the Muslims ban it. It prohibits pork, it is banned. There are all kinds of rules and laws that the Koran has that the Muslims enforce.

Now, you say that the Koran has rules protecting Women. Perhaps I will take your word about that, if you can explain this. Somehow, the Muslim nations ignore those laws. Why? Please explain. The Koran bans drugs, booze, pork, and other stuff, and that is followed, but when it teaches that Women are spiritually equal, should be treated well, are not punching bags, etc. that is ignored…

 

[AgnosTheist]

Now, you say that the Koran has rules protecting Women.

it works like this:

This LEASH is for your own protection.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Does Quran mentioned the word “financial”? Or you just made up your case. How do I know that your explanation will be the same with other muslims I ask? The problem in Islam, you cannot have a single agreement over many Islamic scholars to an Islamic doctrine.

Well, I ask two Christians the same questions and get different answers. So what?

Anyway, this is from like the longest verse in the Qur’an… lol

O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in** transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time**, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah; For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.

It’s pretty clear. It’s not talking about the testimony in court, that one woman isn’t reliable. The answer I gave you is straight from an Islamic scholar from Medina University in Saudi Arabia. And in fact, there is a hadith I studied with my sheikh about a woman’s testimony being taken, alone. Plus, you have ahadith narrated from women (like Aisha) and also women have been judges in Islam and there’s nothing against that.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Very good try, but to no avail. These verses only mean that men and women WILL BE equal in Heaven and Hell. Thus, Allah does not consider women equal to men on earth as he treats them differently through his law.

Duh. No matter how hard he tries, a father cannot breastfeed his children. Only the mother can do that. FACT. Men and women have different roles in society. And that means they have different RIGHTS according to Islamic law. For example, a wife has the right to be financially supported (entirely) so she doesn’t have to work outside the home, so she can take care of the children. Husbands don’t have that right.

Besides, Allah is alleged to address both the community of humans and of jinns in the Surah named Rahman. Does this mean that Allah considers humans and jinns spiritually equal?

 

[Sister_Amy]

The fact that Christianity has no Law to regulate social life does not mean that it allows men to beat their wives or cannot prevent men from such atrocity.

Um… yes it does.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I heard a lot of muslims say that it is about “commercial contracts”. its still sexist, though.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I doubt that Sister Amy was a Christian before, since she knows nothing about the law of love that Jesus gave (b) Love others as you love yourself. Others can also means wife. In Christianity (especially Catholic) no divorce is allowed.

Well I hope when you get married it’s a good match because you’re stuck with it!!

What if a woman doesn’t like her husband after several years? What if he stops practicing the religion, stops supporting her, doesn’t fulfill her rights? What if he isn’t able to satisfy her sexually or any other way? She’s STUCK? Too BAD?

Nah, Islam allows divorce even though it’s discouraged, and couples usually are able to resolve their problems through counseling. Divorce is an option though. Because if a person is so unsatisfied in their marriage, then they are not protected from other problems like being attracted to other men/women, not able to raise their children properly, possibly not protected in the religion.

Civil societies have acknowledged that divorce has to be available because some people just can’t resolve their differences–and it’s true, people change. Some people need that resort, and sometimes it’s healthier for the couple, their families, and their children.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Duh. No matter how hard he tries, a father cannot breastfeed his children.

Amy, please remember that this issue is about social gender equality, not physical equality.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Others can also means wife. In Christianity (especially Catholic) no divorce is allowed.

you call it “annulment”. its practically the same thing.