Honorable/dishonorable?

[DPMartin]

It doesn’t matter what is honorable or dishonorable amongst men, what is honorable, is with the Lord our God.

Take Jacob for instance, in the eyes of most, how Jacob acquired the birth right would be less then honorable. When Jacob went to the Son of Abraham (Isaac) to receive the blessing of Abraham through Abraham’s Son (who was set on the alter to be sacrificed) posing as Esu would be in the judgement of most is less then honorable. And when Jacob went to his mother’s family, Laban was in the judgement of most less then honorable to Jacob. But through all of this, in mens judgement that would be dishonorable, what was honored by God, in God’s site, was the holder of the birth right, (which was given through the Son of the Father) and the blessing of the father (Abraham) through the son (Isaac).

 

[Paul_theApostle]

WAS JACOB’S COURSE WITH ESAU DISHONORABLE?

THE question has been asked, Why did Jacob take from his brother Esau the birthright and blessing? Why did he not give him the pottage when he was hungry, instead of selling it to him? We think it fair to infer that both Esau and Jacob were hungry. The proof that Jacob was hungry was that he had prepared the pottage. We also have proof that Esau was hungry; but we have no evidence as to which was the more hungry. We will suppose that they were about alike hungry and that there was not enough for two to get a meal. Esau made it known that he wanted something to eat and Jacob thought this a proper time for him to secure something which Esau had, but which Esau did not really want.

It is also reasonable to suppose that the whole life of Esau was careless of religious matters and interests. He married into families of surrounding heathen people, entirely in disregard of the promise made to Abraham, getting several worthless wives, according to his mother’s statement. This being true, it seems quite likely that he and Jacob had many talks about God’s promise to their grandfather Abraham, and how the fulfillment of the promise would come about, and that Esau had all along been an unbeliever; and now, when the opportune time came and they were both hungry and the food was there, Jacob said, “You don’t care for your birthright, Esau, and you do not appreciate this promise made to Abraham; it does not count for anything to you; I will tell you what we will do. You may have the supper and I the birthright. Is it a bargain?” Esau said, “It is a bargain, for I am more desirous of the supper than the birthright.”

It was a fair transaction. If one buys a house at a bargain and both buyer and seller are satisfied with the transaction, we would not say that it was cheating or robbery; and so with Jacob. The Abrahamic promise, so far as Esau’s expectation was concerned, was not worth anything. He had no confidence in the promise. The Apostle Paul calls our attention to the matter and says that Esau was profane; that is, he did not count the promise of God as worth anything; he was willing to sell it for a mess of pottage, as though he was getting the better of the bargain, probably saying to himself, “That poor brother of mine does not know what life is; if he would only take a few lessons from me he would begin to live. Here he is believing something that God said to grandfather Abraham, and he thinks he will get something wonderful out of it some day. I do not think it worth considering.” And so Esau doubtless thought he was the gainer over Jacob in getting the supper.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

ESAU CARED ONLY FOR THE EARTHLY PART OF
THE BIRTHRIGHT

It has also been asked, “Why did Jacob attempt to deceive his father?” Jacob was trying to obtain that which he had bought and which he saw the seller would not deliver. Jacob knew his brother was a dishonest man to start with. All the arrangements were made for Esau to receive the blessing that he had sold, and now he was about to steal it. Jacob must have reasoned, “I will try to prevent his stealing it; I have bought the birthright; I have a right to represent Esau in this matter; I shall merely try to have justice done, to get my father to do that which is right and proper, that which I know is God’s will, because God told our mother about the matter at the time of our birth–that the blessing was to come to me; and here in God’s providence it has come to me in a legitimate way by my brother’s not caring for it and my caring a great deal for it. Now it is only a question as to how I shall get it. As a matter of fact, Esau does not value the birthright except from the earthly standpoint. I know he does not care a whit for the promise made to father; he has no confidence in it. All he thinks about is the property that will go to me if I am recognized as the elder son.”

Jacob knew that he would be in trouble if he would try to get the blessing, and yet he was so in love with the promise that a great blessing would come out of it, that he was willing to forego everything. He was willing to become an outcast from his home if he might only have the spiritual part of the promise, and so he left his home with the distinct understanding that he was losing his father’s earthly possessions and getting only the spiritual blessing which Esau did not desire. He did not attempt to take from Esau the portion that Esau wanted.

Some one might query, if Jacob knew that the Lord promised him this blessing through his mother, was it not a lack of faith for him not to recognize that the Lord would give it to him without any deceit or misrepresentation? We suppose that if Jacob had lived in our day and had all the advantages that we have, the instructions of the Old and New Testaments and the begetting of the holy Spirit, he might have learned to exercise his faith, which was already a strong faith as respects God’s promise; he might have learned to wait on the Lord. We have many advantages over him in all these respects. He had very few examples before him respecting the waiting on the Lord or anything of that kind, and he did at least show his zeal and energy and confidence in God in the course that he took; and for a person not begotten of the holy Spirit we think he did wonderfully well.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

JACOB WAS NOT REPROVED OF THE LORD

We think it well for us to remember in this connection that we should measure all of our ideas according to the Divine standard, and if we do not do so we make a mistake. The Divine standard rules. Now, according to the record, there was not a word said by the Lord against Jacob in this whole procedure, and if God had nothing to say against him, who are we that we should have?

When Jacob fled to Padan-aram for fear of his brother, forsaking his home and all the property that was his according to his purchase, willing to let it remain permanently in the hands of Esau, as he had intended to do anyway–when he fled from home and had nothing but a stone for his pillow, that very night the Lord appeared to him in a dream; a vision or picture was given him of the blessing that was his. This indicated that God’s favor was with him. Now to think that God could and would conspire with an evil person is not our way of reasoning on the matter. We do not object to others reasoning differently. We will reason according to the standard the Lord raised, and say, “Thus it is written.”

It may be that there was something not written in the record that might give a different view of the matter, one more easy to comprehend. The Apostle Paul commends Jacob’s faith, but counts Esau’s selling the birthright as reprehensible, and tells us that we should not be like the “profane person who sold his birthright.” (Heb. 12:16.) In this Paul seems to intimate that there may be some who wish to sell their birthright and others who may wish to buy the birthright.

The Jews in our Lord’s day who failed to accept the invitation of the Lord and who were not Israelites indeed, these sold, for the “mess of pottage” of earthly blessings and earthly favor, their heavenly, their spiritual rights; and we who are Gentiles and to whom this right did not appertain by nature, have been invited in to see if we will appreciate the privileges and win the prize–and we will win the prize; we will get the birthright of Esau and the Esau class will not get it.

 

[DPMartin]

WAS JACOB’S COURSE WITH ESAU DISHONORABLE?

THE question has been asked, Why did Jacob take from his brother Esau the birthright and blessing? Why did he not give him the pottage when he was hungry, instead of selling it to him? We think it fair to infer that both Esau and Jacob were hungry. The proof that Jacob was hungry was that he had prepared the pottage. We also have proof that Esau was hungry; but we have no evidence as to which was the more hungry. We will suppose that they were about alike hungry and that there was not enough for two to get a meal. Esau made it known that he wanted something to eat and Jacob thought this a proper time for him to secure something which Esau had, but which Esau did not really want.

It is also reasonable to suppose that the whole life of Esau was careless of religious matters and interests. He married into families of surrounding heathen people, entirely in disregard of the promise made to Abraham, getting several worthless wives, according to his mother’s statement. This being true, it seems quite likely that he and Jacob had many talks about God’s promise to their grandfather Abraham, and how the fulfillment of the promise would come about, and that Esau had all along been an unbeliever; and now, when the opportune time came and they were both hungry and the food was there, Jacob said, “You don’t care for your birthright, Esau, and you do not appreciate this promise made to Abraham; it does not count for anything to you; I will tell you what we will do. You may have the supper and I the birthright. Is it a bargain?” Esau said, “It is a bargain, for I am more desirous of the supper than the birthright.”

Thanks very much for the reply, (awesome stuff)

Your going to have to forgive me, I’m going to have to respond by parsing out your response.

If my math is correct, Jacob was born years (from Adam) 2108 Isaac was 60, and Jacob was 15 years old when Abraham died. It is ether in the book of Jasher or Jubilees that it is said that Jacob was with Abraham when Abraham passed on, and Jacob had the love of Abraham of which Abraham could have favored. Though that may be questionable reference, but it could give incite why Esau despised his birthright. (You know, the old family resentment of favorites) Why would Esau despised his birthright, if he had favor in his father Isaac’s eyes? However the inheritance is from Abraham through Isaac.

When one got the Blessing the other thought to kill him, just as when Abel receive God’s respect for his offering and Cain did the same. Therefore it is possible that Esau resented Abraham’s favor toward Jacob, from which the birth right came.

I would have to point out though, that the text in Scripture does not verify, that there was only enough pottage to satisfy one person, for Jacob gave him bread and pottage, so it was only that Jacob was in possession the food that Esau desired. And Esau was in possession of the birth right that Jacob desired. Also it could have been that Esau perceived he had no need of the birth right since he had Isaac’s favor, and was betting that was sufficient, to receive the Blessing from his father when the time came, of which he did value. But because his mother favored Jacob, that didn’t work out so well.

Also, Jesus when suffering temptation in the wilderness, faced the same situation when His response was: Mt:4:4: But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Considering that it was demonstrated that Jesus had birth right when John the Baptist witnessed:
Mt:3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

In all honesty, Jacob coveted the birth right that Esau was in possession of, and toke the opportunity to get it. By agreement. Whether that is honorable or not, can be debated, but Jacob did let the situation of Esau’s hunger, dictated the possibility. By refusing to give to Esau, without receiving what Jacob coveted.

So can we say that what is to be coveted is the birth right? Could that be, considering that being born of the Holy Spirit should be desired. And it may be the way many that did not know the Lord come to the Lord Jesus, for the coveted birth right. Hence the proper place for covetousness.

And no matter how the deal went down, the Lord God honored the birth right.

 

[DPMartin]

ESAU CARED ONLY FOR THE EARTHLY PART OF
THE BIRTHRIGHT

It was a fair transaction. If one buys a house at a bargain and both buyer and seller are satisfied with the transaction, we would not say that it was cheating or robbery; and so with Jacob. The Abrahamic promise, so far as Esau’s expectation was concerned, was not worth anything. He had no confidence in the promise. The Apostle Paul calls our attention to the matter and says that Esau was profane; that is, he did not count the promise of God as worth anything; he was willing to sell it for a mess of pottage, as though he was getting the better of the bargain, probably saying to himself, “That poor brother of mine does not know what life is; if he would only take a few lessons from me he would begin to live. Here he is believing something that God said to grandfather Abraham, and he thinks he will get something wonderful out of it some day. I do not think it worth considering.” And so Esau doubtless thought he was the gainer over Jacob in getting the supper.

It has also been asked, “Why did Jacob attempt to deceive his father?” Jacob was trying to obtain that which he had bought and which he saw the seller would not deliver. Jacob knew his brother was a dishonest man to start with. All the arrangements were made for Esau to receive the blessing that he had sold, and now he was about to steal it. Jacob must have reasoned, “I will try to prevent his stealing it; I have bought the birthright; I have a right to represent Esau in this matter; I shall merely try to have justice done, to get my father to do that which is right and proper, that which I know is God’s will, because God told our mother about the matter at the time of our birth–that the blessing was to come to me; and here in God’s providence it has come to me in a legitimate way by my brother’s not caring for it and my caring a great deal for it. Now it is only a question as to how I shall get it. As a matter of fact, Esau does not value the birthright except from the earthly standpoint. I know he does not care a whit for the promise made to father; he has no confidence in it. All he thinks about is the property that will go to me if I am recognized as the elder son.”

Jacob knew that he would be in trouble if he would try to get the blessing, and yet he was so in love with the promise that a great blessing would come out of it, that he was willing to forego everything. He was willing to become an outcast from his home if he might only have the spiritual part of the promise, and so he left his home with the distinct understanding that he was losing his father’s earthly possessions and getting only the spiritual blessing which Esau did not desire. He did not attempt to take from Esau the portion that Esau wanted.

As far as the Blessing, and what toke place, it can easily be seen that deception was involved, or at the least the steps required in such acts. but what might be noted as you have said, Esau’s mother and father were not pleased in the case were Esau choose a wife. I do believe Esau toke on other wives in the response to his acknowledgment that his parents weren’t pleased. Though there is evidence that isaac may have been deceived into thinking he was blessing Esau not Jacob, and it must be noted that it was Esau that was instructed to be prepared to receive the Blessing by Isaac.

But who was deceiving who? Its not mentioned that Esau told his father that he agreed to giving away the birth right which was assumed by Isaac that Esau had, or else maybe, Isaac would have called Jacob instead. It also may have been that his mother knew of the transaction since Jacob and his mother may have been close and in confidant. Considering it was proposed by Jacob’s mother on how to get the Blessing that Jacob received at the hand of his brother. Notice that the trust was in being blessed in the presence of being blessed, and one must have birth right first in order to being in the presence to be Blessed, even though by text, Isaac was lead to believe he was Blessing Esau. “And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who?” The faith was by all parties involved, that you had to be there to be blessed (in the presence of Isaac), no matter what the circumstances were. Rebekah’s actions, Jacob’s actions, Esau’s response in the discovery of, and Isaac’s trembling and statement “where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.” Hence by deception did Jacob acquired what was agreed to be his, by his brother who had no intention of keeping, but yet was wroth with Jacob. And through this mayhem of weaves we web. The Lord’s will is done in what the Lord God honors. For soon after Jacob is instructed by Isaac that he should journey to his uncle’s house. And in that journey the Lord speaks, and or reveals to Jacob, of which the Lord did not before.

As far as what Jacob feared may have been legitimate at the time of being blessed, but afterwards there was no fear between Isaac and Jacob, though yes there was concern for Esau’s anger. Though its not said, but in his heart Isaac may have been relieved after the fact, in the understanding that it was better out come since they had concerns about Esau.

To be continued…

 

[DPMartin]

ESAU CARED ONLY FOR THE EARTHLY PART OF
THE BIRTHRIGHT

Some one might query, if Jacob knew that the Lord promised him this blessing through his mother, was it not a lack of faith for him not to recognize that the Lord would give it to him without any deceit or misrepresentation?

No, the Lord did not promise him through his mother, his mother agreed that Jacob should receive the blessing. The promise was from Abraham through Isaac. Its not even logical that the promise was through his mother, even his mother knew it had to be through the Son who was offered on the alter, or which she also knew it required that Jacob be preset to be blessed, that was her faith.

We suppose that if Jacob had lived in our day and had all the advantages that we have, the instructions of the Old and New Testaments and the begetting of the holy Spirit, he might have learned to exercise his faith, which was already a strong faith as respects God’s promise; he might have learned to wait on the Lord. We have many advantages over him in all these respects. He had very few examples before him respecting the waiting on the Lord or anything of that kind, and he did at least show his zeal and energy and confidence in God in the course that he took; and for a person not begotten of the holy Spirit we think he did wonderfully well.

My friend, in the spirit of clarity it might be wise to say “you suppose”, not” we”, I am not supposing your supposition, you are.

No the faith was in the Blessing to received, by he who had birth right, in the presence of the authorised blesser that was the Blessing that Abraham received of God. The promise that was to be honored by God to be fulfilled.
I don’t get were your getting your view on this, the expectation was then that he who had birth right would get the blessing.

 

[DPMartin]

JACOB WAS NOT REPROVED OF THE LORD

We think it well for us to remember in this connection that we should measure all of our ideas according to the Divine standard, and if we do not do so we make a mistake. The Divine standard rules. Now, according to the record, there was not a word said by the Lord against Jacob in this whole procedure, and if God had nothing to say against him, who are we that we should have?

Again with the “we” that is truly an assumption to say what others think. Though yes in the OP I mention that there are some views that see what Jacob was doing was less then honorable, of which I have personally witnessed in sermons and bible studies.

And no one has said as of yet on this thread, anything against Jacob. And the Divine standard is what, in your view? Though yes one must check one’s thoughts in respect to the Lord against scripture as you say, but it seems you have many assumptions of text hear also.

To be continued…

 

[DPMartin]

JACOB WAS NOT REPROVED OF THE LORD

When Jacob fled to Padan-aram for fear of his brother, forsaking his home and all the property that was his according to his purchase, willing to let it remain permanently in the hands of Esau, as he had intended to do anyway–when he fled from home and had nothing but a stone for his pillow, that very night the Lord appeared to him in a dream; a vision or picture was given him of the blessing that was his. This indicated that God’s favor was with him. Now to think that God could and would conspire with an evil person is not our way of reasoning on the matter. We do not object to others reasoning differently. We will reason according to the standard the Lord raised, and say, “Thus it is written.”

It may be that there was something not written in the record that might give a different view of the matter, one more easy to comprehend. The Apostle Paul commends Jacob’s faith, but counts Esau’s selling the birthright as reprehensible, and tells us that we should not be like the “profane person who sold his birthright.” (Heb. 12:16.) In this Paul seems to intimate that there may be some who wish to sell their birthright and others who may wish to buy the birthright.

The Jews in our Lord’s day who failed to accept the invitation of the Lord and who were not Israelites indeed, these sold, for the “mess of pottage” of earthly blessings and earthly favor, their heavenly, their spiritual rights; and we who are Gentiles and to whom this right did not appertain by nature, have been invited in to see if we will appreciate the privileges and win the prize–and we will win the prize; we will get the birthright of Esau and the Esau class will not get it.

This part is a very nice edification in the subject it addresses, thanks.

My problem is what or how does this pertain to the focus of the thread? The use of Jacob and Esau is one of many scriptural examples, of what those who were chosen by God that did this or that or the other, of which the Lord did not hold against them. And yes it wise to look to what the Lord did, not some much in what His chosen people do. But again what does this have to do with recognizing what the Lord God honors. As in:

It doesn’t matter what is honorable or dishonorable amongst men, what is honorable, is with the Lord our God.

(This seems it might be a copy and past sermon, even if it is so, thanks anyway)