Hope for the continuation of the TLM

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I think that there is hope for the continuation of the Latin Mass because of the fact of the large number of young people who attend them. Also the high birthrate among them,i.e 5-6 kids, . Does anyone agree with me out there or has any thoughts on this matter, esp on the effects of this on the Church in America and probably France since there are a lot of traditional catholics there seeing especially an aging population on average attending the OF? In a few generations this can cause a big shift in the Catholic Church. Does anyone agree?
 
Youth are always attracted by novelty.

The Extraordinary Form is new to a lot of young adults.
 
I think so. I am a 36 year old who is drawn to the traditional mass and see quite a lot of folks my age who are searching for something more sacred in this age of relativism. That is my quick, rationale answer. I also like to think that the holy spirit is stirring our hearts to take our life in Christ and our religion seriously. We want to make our connection to Christ “real and present” in the “here and now”. Being human, we want our senses to be stimulated along with our hearts to be touched. Along with this, we want to show love toward Christ through reverence and not just fleeting emotion. WE WANT STABILITY AND NOT A TREND!

Peace,
sttteresasgirl
 
I don’t know, in my area we see a lot of young people going to Community churches becaue they like the music and preaching. I don’t see them running to TLM even though it is very available in our area. In fact, I would say we see less and less young people attending any kind of church service.
 
I think so.

In my parish where the TLM is offered, the majority of them are young and with many more children compared to OF crowd.
 
And so what am I at 58…chopped liver? I grew up with the TLM. I was an altar boy before and just after Vatican II and I sang in a cathedral choir for close to 20 years.

Not all of my generation was so willing to drop the smells and bells in favor of the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’. I saw my parents marginalized to the Vigil Mass on Saturday afternoons because it was the lesser evil.

Down South we did not complain. I didn’t protest Viet Nam, I enlisted. We didn’t fight HMC years ago. That doesn’t mean that all of us thought that what happened after V II was just ducky. I certainly didn’t then and I certainly don’t think so now. I am glad that there are young people but there are any number of us who ain’t young who don’t want what has been going on for the last 40+ years.
 
Chopped liver? Lol. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut! God bless!

stteresasgirl;)
 
Youth are always attracted by novelty.

The Extraordinary Form is new to a lot of young adults.
So then we need more balloon masses? How did that thinking serve us during the seventies and eighties? If novelty is the attraction then the NO created in the sixties should have our pews overflowing. Why didn’t it?

There is a significant generation gap in the TLM I attend - the Baby Boomers aren’t there…
 
This baby boomer is in a diocese where the bishop merely “acknowledged” the Motu Propio and had the chancellor of the diocese write a scathing editiorial in the diocesan newspaper about how “nobody wants the Latin Mass”.

This baby boomer was an altar boy until 1968. This baby boomer has sung in a cathedral choir for 20 years and has driven 25 miles one way for over 25 years because the cathedral parish is orthodox and not subject to the “a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ crowd”; clown masses, etc.

We sing Latin motets. We sing chant as a choral prelude before Mass. I would love to be able to sing (or to serve) for the Mass that I grew up with. We were told in no uncertain terms that the indult Mass (a low Mass) at a certain parish was sufficient for our needs. Low Mass was for weekday Masses at my parish when I was a boy. Sunday Mass was a Missa Cantata (with or without choir) and we chanted the Kyrie in Greek, the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei in Latin just like we do in English today.

Make no mistake about it. I was and am not alone as a baby boomer who was content with HMC as it existed before V II. I saw my parents marginalized to the Vigil Mass on Saturday afternoon because they couldn’t take the ‘a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ that came full-force in 1970. To this day, I do not receive Holy Communion in the hand and, Deo gratias ite Deo gratias!, I look forward to the day that I will be able to once again kneel to receive Our Lord.

Fr. Z says “one brick at a time”. Indeed. One brick at a time.

In the mean time, my oldest son at 28 who got traditional Catholic lite growing up at our cathedral parish, went and memorized the chant for the Pater Noster and floored me by chanting it for me. (We must have done something right). We are planning a trip down to New Orleans to St. Patrick’s Solemn High Mass. We will plant him and his girl friend between Mama and Daddy (St. Joseph Missal’s firmly in hand) and introduce him to the TLM as we were introduced when we were kids.
 
So then we need more balloon masses? How did that thinking serve us during the seventies and eighties? If novelty is the attraction then the NO created in the sixties should have our pews overflowing. Why didn’t it?

There is a significant generation gap in the TLM I attend - the Baby Boomers aren’t there…
Why didn’t it? There are a vast number of reasons that people fall away from the Church. One that is often implied is that people left because of the change of the Mass. Logically, if one examines that carefully, it falls apart; one would reasonably presume that those who objected to some of the silliness that occured from the 70’s through the 90’s are the same people who would have the best understanding iof the Eucharist, and the most likely to follow moral code. And those are therefore the least likely to fall away.

But speaking from personal experience (I have been involved with the Program Catholics Returning Home, so I actually have talked with those who have fallen away). there have been a couple of themes that keep coming up. One of them is issues with the sexual moral code the Church preaches. These pople have not only been involved with birth control, but also very often sexual activity outside of marriage (and I am not talking about a one occasion issue). Others have gotten down the path of an irregular marriage; divorce, no decree of nullity, second marriage outside the Church. The third theme is those who were poorly catechized to begin with; often with parents who were not particularly motivated to make it to Mass regularly. They just drifted away.

I have yet to meet anyone who says they left because of the changes of the Mass. I have had one who was quite surprised as to how it had changed, but he left before the changes - reason? Sexual activity outside marriage, and a job that lead to too much worldly occupation. That is not to say that no one left; but those who make the implication that it is all over the Mass need to start talking with the huge number of fallen-away Catholics.

Oh, and to that we can add mixed marriages, with the spouse stronger in their faith expresion than the Catholic; of that, I number 5 out of 11 first cousins on one side of my family; 2 of them also involved divorces. Out of 15 grandchildren of my maternal grandparents, that is a 33% dropout rate. None of them left over the change in the Mass.
 
It wasn’t just the Mass that got watered down with the misinterpretation of the “spirit of Vatican II” it was Church instruction and practice. As you worship so you believe.
 
It wasn’t just the Mass that got watered down with the misinterpretation of the “spirit of Vatican II” it was Church instruction and practice. As you worship so you believe.
If it had only been watered down, we might not be in the mess as deeply as we are. It might be better to say that catechesis fell in the toilet, and someone flushed.
 
here are a vast number of reasons that people fall away from the Church. One that is often implied is that people left because of the change of the Mass. Logically, if one examines that carefully, it falls apart; one would reasonably presume that those who objected to some of the silliness that occured from the 70’s through the 90’s are the same people who would have the best understanding iof the Eucharist, and the most likely to follow moral code. And those are therefore the least likely to fall away.
That’s probably true to a great extent.
I have yet to meet anyone who says they left because of the changes of the Mass. … That is not to say that no one left; but those who make the implication that it is all over the Mass need to start talking with the huge number of fallen-away Catholics.
Perhaps you’ve not met any personally, but there are those who left for that very reason. Some of the stories, though, are interesting.

For example, there are those whom I call “disgruntled Latins” who “went East” (both to the EC and the EO) in the vain hope of finding what they lost. By and large, they made a big mistake; the vast majority of them realized that and have drifted back to the West. (The number of those who drifted back spiked with the promulgation of Summorum Pontificum.)

Another example is those who sought out the Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. Those people seem to have adjusted better to their new home than those in the first example, but one look at the state of the Anglican Communion these days clearly says they are not without their own troubles.

Then there are those on the extreme right who joined up with Fr DePauw and the CTM and other such groups. Those form the nucleus of the SSPV, SSGG, and the myriad and sundry “independent” churches which crop-up regularly.

Those who followed the SSPX are perhaps a little different, at least insofar as the SSPX was initially an Institute in good standing, and may well be again.
Ockham;5798914:
It wasn’t just the Mass that got watered down with the misinterpretation of the “spirit of Vatican II” it was Church instruction and practice. As you worship so you believe.
If it had only been watered down, we might not be in the mess as deeply as we are. It might be better to say that catechesis fell in the toilet, and someone flushed.
True, but can one say for sure that it wasn’t deliberately put there and flushed?
 
As a convert to the Catholic Faith in 1992 I have only known the OF of the Mass. After some years as a practicing Catholic I felt the call to the Diaconate. During my 4 ½ years of formation and education my respect for the Mass has only deepened. Our Holy Father, Pope Benedict has allowed the Extraordinary Form of the Mass for those who are especially drawn to this form of our corporate worship. I have great respect for the Pope’s allowing this EF to be made available as a way to draw us closer to our Lord. I see his gesture as completely consistent with the Church’s tradition of the Saints, many sacramentals (rosary, novenas, etc.) and other devotionals to provide ways to reach as many of the Faithful as possible and to promote a deeper relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

Regardless of the form of the Mass we participate in we should all do so with reverence and respect. It would bring great sadness if these two forms of worship caused division or polarization of our communion. I don’t believe that is the desire of the Holy Father or those who have promoted the EF of the Mass.

May God continue to Bless and Guide His Church.
 
That’s probably true to a great extent.

Perhaps you’ve not met any personally, but there are those who left for that very reason. Some of the stories, though, are interesting.

For example, there are those whom I call “disgruntled Latins” who “went East” (both to the EC and the EO) in the vain hope of finding what they lost. By and large, they made a big mistake; the vast majority of them realized that and have drifted back to the West. (The number of those who drifted back spiked with the promulgation of Summorum Pontificum.)

Another example is those who sought out the Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. Those people seem to have adjusted better to their new home than those in the first example, but one look at the state of the Anglican Communion these days clearly says they are not without their own troubles.

Then there are those on the extreme right who joined up with Fr DePauw and the CTM and other such groups. Those form the nucleus of the SSPV, SSGG, and the myriad and sundry “independent” churches which crop-up regularly.

Those who followed the SSPX are perhaps a little different, at least insofar as the SSPX was initially an Institute in good standing, and may well be again.
I do not disagree with your analysis of where some went. But let’s look at it another way: there are some 60,000,000 + Catholics in the US. Out of that, a charitible number would be 30% (the numbers vary - but I am averaging) attending Mass on a weekly basis. That means that we have 42,000,000 Catholics who go less frequently (once or twice a month maybe), what we call the CE’s (Christmas and Easter), the BFWD (bred, fed, wed, dead) group, and then the rest - those who have left for non-Roman rites, Protestant rites, other (LDS, eastern religions), and finally, nothing at all. I do not disagree that some have left as you suggest, but that group is in the thousands, not the millions. Again, the point I was trying to make is that there is at least an implied statement concerning the change in the Mass that this caused a huge (ok, I was going to say a mass) exodus (:D). But the statistics of attendance simply don’t show any sharp drop, but rather a continuing gradual erosion. And logically if one understands the Eucharist (and I would presume that those trained in religion prior to Vatican 2 had a clearer understanding of it) would simply drop out because of the changes. Yes, some would seek other avenues, but as to the overall drop in attendance, it is not due to the changes, but rather to other sources and issues.
True, but can one say for sure that it wasn’t deliberately put there and flushed?
Ithink that one can say for sure that it was deliberate. I don’t think it was deliberate on the part of the bishops, but those who wrote the new catechisms definitely went at it that doctrine was passe and the social Gospel was the rule. But what they gave as the social Gospel was far too long on the social and far too short on the Gospel. The bishops were snoozing. They did not take personal oversite, and what little oversite they gave was not intelligently applied.

We sometimes presume an expertise, or a knowledge base that doesn’t exist in others. Let me give an exmple: several of us from my parish joined with others from 2 other parishes to bring in a national Apologetics speaker. During the session, I was standing in the back with the pastor of another parish; he had been ordained pre-Vatican 2 and seemed fairly level-headed. As questions were being asked of the apologist, he turned to me with a rather puzzeled look, and said “I had no idea these people didn’t know the answers to these questions.” He presumed that people were far better catechized than they were. He simply had no idea that people’s understanding of their faith was as poor as it is.

I think we sometimes presume too much when we critique the actions (or lack of them) of certain individuals. Bishops included. I do not intend to give them all a free pass; but neither do I presume bad intent by all of them.
 
Why didn’t it? There are a vast number of reasons that people fall away from the Church. One that is often implied is that people left because of the change of the Mass. Logically, if one examines that carefully, it falls apart; one would reasonably presume that those who objected to some of the silliness that occured from the 70’s through the 90’s are the same people who would have the best understanding iof the Eucharist, and the most likely to follow moral code. And those are therefore the least likely to fall away.

But speaking from personal experience (I have been involved with the Program Catholics Returning Home, so I actually have talked with those who have fallen away). there have been a couple of themes that keep coming up. One of them is issues with the sexual moral code the Church preaches. These pople have not only been involved with birth control, but also very often sexual activity outside of marriage (and I am not talking about a one occasion issue). Others have gotten down the path of an irregular marriage; divorce, no decree of nullity, second marriage outside the Church. The third theme is those who were poorly catechized to begin with; often with parents who were not particularly motivated to make it to Mass regularly. They just drifted away.

I have yet to meet anyone who says they left because of the changes of the Mass. I have had one who was quite surprised as to how it had changed, but he left before the changes - reason? Sexual activity outside marriage, and a job that lead to too much worldly occupation. That is not to say that no one left; but those who make the implication that it is all over the Mass need to start talking with the huge number of fallen-away Catholics.

Oh, and to that we can add mixed marriages, with the spouse stronger in their faith expresion than the Catholic; of that, I number 5 out of 11 first cousins on one side of my family; 2 of them also involved divorces. Out of 15 grandchildren of my maternal grandparents, that is a 33% dropout rate. None of them left over the change in the Mass.
Well, meet one Boomer here:tiphat:. The NO kept me away for 30 years! I never went to any other “church” but HMC and I never will. I felt like a Catholic without a church. I would attend once a year or so to see if things were pulling a way from the"felt dove on burlap banner"**** stage of the 1970’s, but to no avail. The **ONLY **reason I came back was that I missed Our Lord in the Eucharist. It still isn’t easy for me to attend the NO, especially with all of the noise going on. Its not very conducive to communicating with Him on a personal level when, after you’ve just received Him(on the tongue, of course), you’re aurally assaulted by some wittly little ditty out of the Oregon Catholic Press Song Book( can’t really call it a hymnal )
Please pray for the Achdiocese of Detroit…Deliver us from the clutches of the NO Adherents!::gopray2:
 
Well, meet one Boomer here:tiphat:. The NO kept me away for 30 years! I never went to any other “church” but HMC and I never will. I felt like a Catholic without a church. I would attend once a year or so to see if things were pulling a way from the"felt dove on burlap banner"**** stage of the 1970’s, but to no avail. The **ONLY **reason I came back was that I missed Our Lord in the Eucharist. It still isn’t easy for me to attend the NO, especially with all of the noise going on. Its not very conducive to communicating with Him on a personal level when, after you’ve just received Him(on the tongue, of course), you’re aurally assaulted by some wittly little ditty out of the Oregon Catholic Press Song Book( can’t really call it a hymnal )
Please pray for the Achdiocese of Detroit…Deliver us from the clutches of the NO Adherents!::gopray2:
A whole lot of those “little ditties” are based on specific passages of psalms, Old and New Testament passages. They are noted at the bottom of each music piece if they are from such.

So is it the music accompanyment that you don’t like, or do you just not like the Bible?

And given that the vast number of parishes in the world are using the OF - Mass Times Trust which tracks the use of the EF puts it at about 1 in every 250 parishes out of a total of 117,000 parishes, it is not likely that the OF is going to go away. In other words, the vast majority of people attending Mass regularly are doing so in the EF. Clutches or otherwise.

I would hope that if you prefer the EF, that you would work with others who do also, to be able to show the need. Unless and until it is effectively presented to the archbishop, a request for the EF is not going to gain traction. Dont get mad. Get even. Play the political game if that is what must be done, but play it to be effective.
 
I do not disagree with your analysis of where some went. … I do not disagree that some have left as you suggest, but that group is in the thousands, not the millions.
Looks like you read something into my last post that wasn’t there. I was simply giving a few examples of those who did go elsewhere for what appear to be liturgical reasons. notice the word “some” which does not mean “all” or a “majority” or anything of the kind. It means just what it says: some. But, while I cannot give you the statistical data that you would prefer, (I doubt it even exists), I do think that it was more than a few thousand.
Ithink that one can say for sure that it was deliberate. I don’t think it was deliberate on the part of the bishops, but those who wrote the new catechisms definitely went at it that doctrine was passe and the social Gospel was the rule. But what they gave as the social Gospel was far too long on the social and far too short on the Gospel. The bishops were snoozing. They did not take personal oversite, and what little oversite they gave was not intelligently applied. …

I think we sometimes presume too much when we critique the actions (or lack of them) of certain individuals. Bishops included. I do not intend to give them all a free pass; but neither do I presume bad intent by all of them.
The word snoozing is a cute euphemism. One could say it was more like the bishops were in a coma. (Some, apparently, still are).

In any case, I’m not about to speak on anyone’s intent, but it seems to me they do bear the brunt of responsibility. Yes, those who “wrote the catechisms” had their own agenda, but they did not do their work in a vacuum or on their own. As you say, “they [the bishops] did not take personal oversite, and what little oversite they gave was not intelligently applied” and therein lies the problem.
 
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