Hope

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I don’t know for certain either. Maybe it will help if i make sure i understand you so we might find the truth together.

If i were to say, “I believe that you can carry me across the Niagara Falls on a tightrope,” then you might misunderstand me. For the word believe has several meanings:

(d) To think that something is true
(e) To know that something is true
(f) To put one’s trust in what she knows is true

So, when you say

Hope seems to be halfway between desire and belief …

i do not know whether you mean belief in the sense of (d), (e) or (f).
I don’t think we’d need trust if we had absolute certainty. And yet the trust can become so powerful, due to the help of the One in whom we trust, that people become certain enough to experience martyrdom. But who can even be certain if they possess this kind of faith unless or until it’s put to the test?

In any case (f) would be the closest: to trust in what she’s been empowered to believe is true. Faith is a knowing without being able to prove empirically the knowledge even to oneself. Faith is an acceptance of the reality of the supernatural-a rejection of the pride that fears the worlds’ opinion, and a humility before something greater than us. Hope and faith that this great good exists already resides within us but God draws it, awakens it, empowers it. That’s probably more than you wanted and maybe still not what you asked for but you got me athink’n.
 
I would say that you have faith in doctrine, but hope for the things promised. Faith is merely belief without evaluative content, but hope is a wish or desire that certain of the things potentially believed in become true. One can - from a secular perspective - hope without belief, for even a skeptic could hope for a life in heaven without belief in it’s likelihood. One cannot have faith without belief though, for faith is belief in religious or theological dogma. I think that therefore faith and hope can be independent, but in the religious context are related like a path and a walk, like hunger and a meal. Hope is a kind of “forehaving”, a walk along the path of theological possibility, an ‘imaginitive’ taste of potential future goods with the wish that that vicarious enjoyment become real.

When hope is a theological virtue it is connected to faith and therefore belief. One has faith in the future state and potential goods stemming from God and the religios life, and one hopes, or wishes (with belief in real possibility) that some or all of those goods will come one’s way. It is a preference for certain anticipated things.

I think that a sin against hope is presumption, and another is despair. They represent the two extremes of too much belief or too little belief. So, hope as a Christian virtue has a element of belief or faith and it is the middle way betwen two extremes.

Running through this thread are faith, belief and hope. Perhaps it is irrational to hope without some belief in the possibility of the hoped for coming into being. So, from the theological perspective, hope assumes a degree of faith in the Christian believer and to him or her hope is a rational response. Maybe even the skeptic would admit that it is irrational to hope without a degree of thinking something plausible.

For the Catholic, deliberate skepticism about dogma is a sin, an action to avoid. Therefore it is a sin to deliberately loose hope also. Perhaps therefore the life of faith involves a “foretaste of heaven” … with the belief that things will improve!

One might mention a quote here from Mathew "

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; **but with God all things are possible. **"

So in this context ordinary logic and inductive reasoning about possibility is shown to be inappropriate for the believer. So the hope of the faithful is wider ranging that the hope of the secular scientist. With the belief that God is ultimately good, though faith that hope is secured.
 
Perhaps hope is desire for the truth and faith is knowledge of the truth?
I’m impressed by the distinction and I enjoyed the example.

It conforms with human religious experience in that someone can have in a vague and unfulfilled sense hope without having Faith. Plenty of people desire some unutterable thing from the very depths of their heart without grasping its essential nature in Faith.

I previously had the view that Hope was desire for unity with The Most Blessed God. Hope is not just about desire for something objective and distant and impossible to fulfill, rather its object is within our reach and verifiable through experience. Hope’s object is inside of me today and the more I hope the more I will experience that object tomorrow.
 
I wrote "an ‘imaginitive’ taste of potential future goods with the wish that that vicarious enjoyment become real. "

Please replace “vicarious” with “soulful”.
 
I wrote “It is a preference for certain anticipated things” please add “with the desire that they come into being, and the belief that they can”.
 
I don’t think we’d need trust if we had absolute certainty. And yet the trust can become so powerful, due to the help of the One in whom we trust, that people become certain enough to experience martyrdom. But who can even be certain if they possess this kind of faith unless or until it’s put to the test?

In any case (f) would be the closest: to trust in what she’s been empowered to believe is true. Faith is a knowing without being able to prove empirically the knowledge even to oneself. Faith is an acceptance of the reality of the supernatural-a rejection of the pride that fears the worlds’ opinion, and a humility before something greater than us. Hope and faith that this great good exists already resides within us but God draws it, awakens it, empowers it. That’s probably more than you wanted and maybe still not what you asked for but you got me athink’n.
A thinkin’ is my goal. Finding answers (if any are given us) is an added benefit!

We agree, then, at least as the evidence examined suggests, that faith can be complete trust in the one who deserves all we can possibly muster. Although, a weaker faith might fail to trust.

👍

That faith might be week or strong or somewhere in between seems evident from Christ’s rebuke to His disciples:

“You of little faith, why are you so afraid?”
(Matthew 8)

What do you think of the idea that hope is not trust, but something else?
 
I would say that you have faith in doctrine, but hope for the things promised. Faith is merely belief without evaluative content, but hope is a wish or desire that certain of the things potentially believed in become true. One can - from a secular perspective - hope without belief, for even a skeptic could hope for a life in heaven without belief in it’s likelihood. One cannot have faith without belief though, for faith is belief in religious or theological dogma. I think that therefore faith and hope can be independent, but in the religious context are related like a path and a walk, like hunger and a meal. Hope is a kind of “forehaving”, a walk along the path of theological possibility, an ‘imaginitive’ taste of potential future goods with the wish that that vicarious enjoyment become real.
I like your thoughts, Luke. One doubt i have: Is it possible to have hope without any faith?

Let me use an example: If i were to say i hope Santa Clause exists, i’d be lying. I have no trust in the idea that the jolly old man drives a sleigh of flying reindeer each year and delivers toys to good little girls and boys. Since i have no faith in him, i have no glimmer of hope for him, either.

On the other hand, the idea that life exists on other planets or parallel universes is intriguing. There is a slight possibility that this might be the case, so the door is open for me to desire that such might be true. In that case, if i so choose, hope might faintly glow.

Faith is the mother of hope, it seems to me. Faith can exist where there is no hope (such as the example of the man who is certain that he is condemned to life imprisonment). Hope, however, cannot be born without Mother Faith.

If i’m correct (and please correct me if i’m not) Faith is the cause of Hope. The stronger Faith is, the more her offspring Hope will be nurtured and become strong, too.
 
I’m impressed by the distinction and I enjoyed the example.

It conforms with human religious experience in that someone can have in a vague and unfulfilled sense hope without having Faith. Plenty of people desire some unutterable thing from the very depths of their heart without grasping its essential nature in Faith.

I previously had the view that Hope was desire for unity with The Most Blessed God. Hope is not just about desire for something objective and distant and impossible to fulfill, rather its object is within our reach and verifiable through experience. Hope’s object is inside of me today and the more I hope the more I will experience that object tomorrow.
Mark:

Are you saying that the stronger your faith becomes, the more your hope will grow?
 
Maybe it’s a desire mixed with a glimmer of innate prescience that there’s something to trust in.
Do you mean that …

(g)

hope = desire

faith = trust

and

hope is inseparable from faith

or is your meaning that …

(h) hope is a weaker form of belief than faith

is closer to the truth?
 
Do you mean that …

(g)

hope = desire

faith = trust

and

hope is inseparable from faith

or is your meaning that …

(h) hope is a weaker form of belief than faith

is closer to the truth?
I’d have to say (g)- with hope, one needs at least some faith that what’s desired actually exists and in the case of basic Christian truths I believe that the human heart already has a certain awareness of the veracity of those truths and sort of recognizes the hand print of God there.
 
Do you mean that …

(g)hope = desirefaith = trustand hope is inseparable from faithor is your meaning that …

(h) hope is a weaker form of belief than faithis closer to the truth?
I’ll go with (g) with the following qualifications:
  1. hope includes desire but it is not its equivalent
  2. faith includes trust but it is not its equivalent
  3. faith can exist without hope
  4. false hope can exist with faith
 
We three appear to be in agreement, then, at least until some other evidence changes our minds. We concur that hope is not (h). My hope is that we are correct that Daughter Hope is not a weaker form of her Mother Faith.

With this flicker of truth, let’s take another look at the CCC:

Quote:
1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.”

As noted earlier, there are two premises here:

(a)

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness

and

(b)

placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that (b) is not what hope is, for we agree that (h) is false, where

(h) = the premise that hope is a weaker form of belief than faith.

Am i understanding you both correctly?
 
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

–St. Paul (1 Corinthians 13:13)

I want to thank you both, FH and David. Since St. Paul appears to indicate that the greatest of the virtues are faith, hope and love, they are virtues i want to obtain. Yet, how can i better attain a virtue like Hope if i don’t fully understand who she is?

When i reflect on this 13th verse of the 13th chapter of St. Paul’s letter, i imagine Faith, Hope and Love as though they are the victors in an Olympic competition. St. Paul seems to give the gold medal to Love.

Now, after thinking this through with both of you, i imagine that if i were to ask him, “But who gets the silver medal?” his response might be, “Faith, of course! For Hope is not possible without Faith.”
 
I’ll go with (g) with the following qualifications:
  1. hope includes desire but it is not its equivalent
  2. faith includes trust but it is not its equivalent
  3. faith can exist without hope
  4. false hope can exist with faith
FH:

Sorry for being slow to understand. How is Hope not the equivalent of desire and how is Faith not the equivalent of trust?

🤷
 
FH:

Sorry for being slow to understand. How is Hope not the equivalent of desire and how is Faith not the equivalent of trust?

🤷
Because each is only one attribute among serveral. For example, a ball is spherical. It also has size, shape and color attributes as well. Equating hope to desire is like equating ball to spherical.

Another way:
If A=B, then B=A. Substituting hope for A and desire for B, giving one desire=hope as a not necessarily true statement, thus making hope and desire not equivalent.

Note: a correction to my qualification 4) should have read "false hope can exist without faith.
 
Because each is only one attribute among serveral. For example, a ball is spherical. It also has size, shape and color attributes as well. Equating hope to desire is like equating ball to spherical.

Another way:
If A=B, then B=A. Substituting hope for A and desire for B, giving one desire=hope as a not necessarily true statement, thus making hope and desire not equivalent.

Note: a correction to my qualification 4) should have read "false hope can exist without faith.
Yes, i think i understand, David, but let me become sure. It seems to me that you are saying that not all desire is Hope, though all Hope is desire. Another way of putting it might be that Hope is a specific kind of desire. Hunger is another kind. Thirst is another. A longing for truth is another. A predilection for greed, or lust, or other sin is another.

The following image might represent desire (A) and Hope (C).

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Hope is something you submit to, it’s not something you define.

What “is” love?

What “is” truth?

What “is” Hope?

It’s only meaningful once you give in to it. Hope has no real definition. But It does have the capacity to define you. Just like Love and truth.

my 2c’s.

Cheers
 
Hope is something you submit to, it’s not something you define.

What “is” love?

What “is” truth?

What “is” Hope?

It’s only meaningful once you give in to it. Hope has no real definition. But It does have the capacity to define you. Just like Love and truth.

my 2c’s.

Cheers
Dameedna:

Thanks for the insight, but i’m not sure i comprehend what you are saying.

If you do not know what Hope is, then how do you know that Hope is?

🤷
 
Dameedna:

Thanks for the insight, but i’m not sure i comprehend what you are saying.

If you do not know what Hope is, then how do you know that Hope is?

🤷
I don’t.

I can’t define life either. If I do not know what Life is, then how do I know that life is.

I have no choice, but to live it. Just like hope. You have no choice, but to submit to it, once you accept it’s there.

Do you need to define life, to live it?
 
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