Hope

[Socrates4Jesus]

All three are false. However, none of them serve as an meaningful metaphor of the relationship between the Son and the Father, as they misrepresent their relative authority.

A master commands a slave, and the slave obeys. An employer commands an employee, and the employee obeys. A general commands his troops and they obey.

Tell me, David, do those commanded ever command those who command them? Does Jesus ever command the Father whose commands He obeys?

“If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”
–Jesus (John 15:10)

 

[fhansen]

And what of this ability to receive supernatural truths that by Faith we later believe? Is this not also a virtue and a different beauty? Please tell me, if God reveals it to you, what is her name?

dunno. There are prerequisites for sure. We must be sentient beings-equipped with reason.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

dunno. There are prerequisites for sure. We must be sentient beings-equipped with reason.

Yes, the Jewish people had a name for her, the same name that Greeks gave to her. She was the god Socrates adored. He called himself one of her lovers. Do you know her name?

Hint: As Socrates said to his friend in Philebus, “It is right under your nose and mine.”

 

[davidv]

A master commands a slave, and the slave obeys. An employer commands an employee, and the employee obeys. A general commands his troops and they obey.

Tell me, David, do those commanded ever command those who command them?

They may try to. But, unless they have been given the authority to do so, they will not be heard.

Does Jesus ever command the Father whose commands He obeys?

“If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”–Jesus (John 15:10)

I have no knowledge of such a command.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, the Jewish people had a name for her, the same name that Greeks gave to her. She was the god Socrates adored. He called himself one of her lovers. Do you know her name?

Hint: As Socrates said to his friend in Philebus, “It is right under your nose and mine.”

Wisdom

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

They may try to. But, unless they have been given the authority to do so, they will not be heard.

I have no knowledge of such a command.

Neither have i. Having read the Old Testament a few times, and the gospels many times through, i’ve found none.

So, as a soldier is not equal in authority to the general who commands him, so Jesus is not equal in authority to the Father who commands Him. They are equal in essence, but not in relationship. Does this ring true to you?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Wisdom

Yes!



She is a virtue worthy of my adoration. How about yours?

 

[fhansen]

Yes!



She is a virtue worthy of my adoration. How about yours?

I certainly wish to cultivate her-but with little success it seems!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Wisdom calls aloud in the street,
she raises her voice in the public squares;

at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, 
   in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: 

"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? 
   How long will mockers delight in mockery 
   and fools hate knowledge? 

If you had responded to my rebuke, 
   I would have poured out my heart to you 
   and made my thoughts known to you. 

But since you rejected me when I called 
   and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, 

since you ignored all my advice 
   and would not accept my rebuke, 

I in turn will laugh at your disaster; 
   I will mock when calamity overtakes you- 

when calamity overtakes you like a storm, 
   when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, 
   when distress and trouble overwhelm you. 

"Then they will call to me but I will not answer; 
   they will look for me but will not find me. 

Since they hated knowledge 
   and did not choose to fear the LORD, 

since they would not accept my advice 
   and spurned my rebuke, 

they will eat the fruit of their ways 
   and be filled with the fruit of their schemes. 

For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, 
   and the complacency of fools will destroy them; 

but whoever listens to me will live in safety 
   and be at ease, without fear of harm."

(Proverbs 1)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I certainly wish to cultivate her-but with little success it seems!

Then i’m proud to call you a Philosopher, which literally means one of Wisdom’s lovers.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
the man who gains understanding,

for she is more profitable than silver
and yields better returns than gold.

She is more precious than rubies;
nothing you desire can compare with her.

Long life is in her right hand;
in her left hand are riches and honor.

Her ways are pleasant ways,
and all her paths are peace.

She is a tree of life to those who embrace her;
those who lay hold of her will be blessed.

By wisdom the LORD laid the earth’s foundations,
by understanding he set the heavens in place;

by his knowledge the deeps were divided,
and the clouds let drop the dew.

My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment,
do not let them out of your sight;

they will be life for you,
an ornament to grace your neck.

Then you will go on your way in safety,
and your foot will not stumble;

when you lie down, you will not be afraid;
when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet.

Have no fear of sudden disaster
or of the ruin that overtakes the wicked,

for the LORD will be your confidence
and will keep your foot from being snared.

Do not withhold good from those who deserve it,
when it is in your power to act.

Do not say to your neighbor,
“Come back later; I’ll give it tomorrow”—
when you now have it with you.

Do not plot harm against your neighbor,
who lives trustfully near you.

Do not accuse a man for no reason—
when he has done you no harm.

Do not envy a violent man
or choose any of his ways,

for the LORD detests a perverse man
but takes the upright into his confidence.

The LORD’s curse is on the house of the wicked,
but he blesses the home of the righteous.

He mocks proud mockers
but gives grace to the humble.

The wise inherit honor,
but fools he holds up to shame.

(Proverbs 3)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What shall we say of this Virtuous Lady Wisdom? Socrates said she was embraced through reason. The Jewish people said she was wedded to a man through divine revelation.

Would it be fair to say she is the virtue by which we discover truth?

 

[Sister_G]

BINGO!!! You get the prize Socrates! This is why wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit - so that we can recognize God who is Truth!

 

[utunumsint]

Yes, that is what i’m asking.

Yes, i think you have answered my question, Ut, but let me be sure. I think you are saying that the obtaining of truth is indeed a cause (though not the only cause) of Faith.

Reason can be a preparation for faith, yes. But reason alone is never the sufficient cause of faith. That would be God alone.

That leaves one more question for me to ask and then i hope the relevance of these questions will become evident: Would you say that a cause is the same thing as that which the cause causes?

No. I am that cause of these letters I am typing, but I am not the letters.

Or do you think that an effect is actually the same thing as its cause?

No.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

What shall we say of this Virtuous Lady Wisdom? Socrates said she was embraced through reason. The Jewish people said she was wedded to a man through divine revelation.

Would it be fair to say she is the virtue by which we discover truth?

Yes. But socrates represents what is humanly knowable about God, therefore human wisdom.

The Bible also contains this human wisdom, but far surpases it with revalation.

I think Paul says “The cross is foolishness to the Greek, and blasphemy to the Jews, but it is the power of God to those who believe.” I think true faith is a response to God’s love. This is also true wisdom.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Reason can be a preparation for faith, yes. But reason alone is never the sufficient cause of faith. That would be God alone. …

Why God alone? If reason (or what i will call the virtue of wisdom) is a preparation for Faith, then is it not also a cause (though not the only cause) of Faith?



Consider an example: When my son listens to a song played on the Internet for the first time and then picks up his guitar and plays it perfectly the first time i’m impressed. Now, i might tell you it is his talent alone that makes him so good at playing the guitar. I think you would be right to point out that it is not only his talent, but also his many months of practice playing different but similar songs that have prepared him to play a new song so well the first time he makes the attempt.

Just as talent and preparation are the causes of my son’s musical ability, so too God and wisdom (at least in my own experience) are causes (and possibly not the only causes) of Faith.

What do you think?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes. But socrates represents what is humanly knowable about God, therefore human wisdom.

The Bible also contains this human wisdom, but far surpases it with revalation.

I think Paul says “The cross is foolishness to the Greek, and blasphemy to the Jews, but it is the power of God to those who believe.” I think true faith is a response to God’s love. This is also true wisdom.

God bless,
Ut

You make a good point, Ut. Who can accurately know the full truth about God unless He reveals Himself? Socrates, for example, used his reason to come to the true conclusion that there was one God above all gods who was the source of all wisdom. His reason also brought him to the false conclusion that when we discover wisdom we are actually remembering what we experienced when we were in the presence of this God of Wisdom prior to birth. You or i know that his former conclusion was true, because divine revelation tells us so. You and i know that the latter conclusion is false for the same reason.

What then shall we say is the nature of this new virtue that has entered our dialog, whom i shall call Wisdom? Is she merely divinely revealed, or does she use both our reason and the Holy Spirit’s still, small voice to speak to you or i?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

BINGO!!! You get the prize Socrates! This is why wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit - so that we can recognize God who is Truth!

Yes, Sister! Jesus did say He was the truth.



Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
(John 14)

What do you think of this new lady virtue you and i call Wisdom? It is by her that you or i receive any truth about the one who is Truth. Do you think she might be greater than Faith or Love?

 

[fhansen]

What shall we say of this Virtuous Lady Wisdom? Socrates said she was embraced through reason. The Jewish people said she was wedded to a man through divine revelation.

Would it be fair to say she is the virtue by which we discover truth?

Human wisdom would be inadequate to bring one to all the truths proposed by Christianity but, as Sister G said, the supernatural gift of wisdom is oriented towards that purpose. In any case the criteria would simply be that wisdom must lead one to those very truths if it’s to fulfill your claim for it, and that might be workable as long as grace isn’t excluded as a necessary ingredient.

Apparently Aquinas linked wisdom with love. What amazes me about this is that I’ve often said that two things lacking in Adam & Eve contributed to the fall-the wisdom to obey God and the love for God that He deserved-but I never linked the two directly together. I don’t know if that’s a profound thought or not-or just plain wrong- but I do believe that this life is for the purpose of gaining the wisdom that Adam & Eve lacked in order to make the right choice that they didn’t.

And that right choice is to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and so never desire to disobey Him-having learned of the perfection of His wisdom. It might be said that our goal is to gain the wisdom to recognize the superiority of His wisdom over ours-and to gain the wisdom to value Love as it deserves to be valued.

**“This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections.” **
Saint Augustine

 

[utunumsint]

Why God alone? If reason (or what i will call the virtue of wisdom) is a preparation for Faith, then is it not also a cause (though not the only cause) of Faith?

I do not think so. I would call it a necessary predisposition, but a predisposition does not necessarily produce faith. There are so many virtuous heathens, pagans, non Christians, etc who still do not have faith. Why? I believe its a mystery that has to do with the concept of predestination and free will. It is beyond us though.

Consider an example: When my son listens to a song played on the Internet for the first time and then picks up his guitar and plays it perfectly the first time i’m impressed. Now, i might tell you it is his talent alone that makes him so good at playing the guitar. I think you would be right to point out that it is not only his talent, but also his many months of practice playing different but similar songs that have prepared him to play a new song so well the first time he makes the attempt.

Just as talent and preparation are the causes of my son’s musical ability, so too God and wisdom (at least in my own experience) are causes (and possibly not the only causes) of Faith.

What do you think?

Predisposition to receive grace also has its reverse, the predisposition not to receive grace.

Let me use another analogy. If I had been a drug user, or frequented prostitutes, or was taught from an early age that women were just things to be used, it is very unlikely that my wife would ever have found anything attractive in me or worthy to mary. Even so, even if I had all the gifts of virtue, all natural goodness, etc… I could not then say that I deserved my wife’s love. You could say that my virtues predisposed me to receive her love and cherish it for the gift it is, but there is nothing that can allow me to say I have earned her love, or that my virtues or reasoning power caused her love, or caused her to reveal the secrets of her inner life with me. They are gifts, unmerited, and undeserved.

However, God’s love and his ability to penetrate even the most hardened hearts is something that far surpases my human analogy. His truth can tocu anyone he choses, regardless of their predisposition. Although to be honest, I do find such conversions all the more miraculous and wonderful on account of their improbability.

Anyway, all this to say that I don’t think there is a necessary corelation between reason and faith, such as in cause and effect.

Does this make sense?

God bless,
Ut