Hope

[fhansen]

Sorry, jumped in a little quick there. Thought the play was over and it hadn’t gone MY WAY! :crying:
Except for the finale where it did after all-Halleluiah! :extrahappy:Or pretty close anyway. Nice ending, Soc.

 

[onelife1]

So, do you guys do in cycling by any chance?

 

[JDaniel]

JD:

Sorry for taking so long to respond. If you are interested in continuing, my answer is this: I’d say that the opposite of Hope is the feeling of despair. Since despair is an emotion, it seems to me that Hope (the feeling of expectation of some good result) is also an emotion.

Hence, Hope should not be confused with Faith, which is a rational and unemotional decision to put confidence in some truth (though in some cases it might be an irrational and unemotional confidence in some truth). Faith, then, can be a rational trust in a truth, while Hope is an emotional trust in a truth.

What do you think?

How can a supernatural virtue be equivocal to an emotion? I define “emotion” as springing up from baser desires.

jd

 

[fhansen]

How can a supernatural virtue be equivocal to an emotion? I define “emotion” as springing up from baser desires.

jd

The word emotion doesn’t work so well for the virtues IMO although they may have emotions attached to them (we certainly have a sense of what hope or confidence “feels” like). It would be more accurate, in my understanding of the Churchs position, to say that Hope is a supernatural gift whereby we’re able to place trust and confidence in things we’ve come to believe in through the supernatural gift of Faith. And while Faith may involve things which are not unreasonable, those things are nonetheless unattainable by reason alone.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

How can a supernatural virtue be equivocal to an emotion? I define “emotion” as springing up from baser desires.

jd

Is joy an emotion?

 

[JDaniel]

So did i!

I must tell you that your story hit me on the head with a hammer. It could not have been better told. It was almost like watching an early Greek play. Almost cathartic. Thank you very much.

There exists a deafening roar, in this thread. There have been essentially no non-theist contributors of late. That, in itself, is telling. Either they don’t care to help me, or, they have nothing to offer.

jd

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The word emotion doesn’t work so well for the virtues IMO although they may have emotions attached to them (we certainly have a sense of what hope or confidence “feels” like). It would be more accurate, in my understanding of the Churchs position, to say that Hope is a supernatural gift whereby we’re able to place trust and confidence in things we’ve come to believe in through the supernatural gift of Faith. And while Faith may involve things which are not unreasonable, those things are nonetheless unattainable by reason alone.

Yes, FH, but if you don’t mind my asking–didn’t we agree that Faith is also a supernatural gift by which whereby we are able to place trust and confidence in things in which we’ve come to believe?

 

[JDaniel]

Is joy an emotion?

You’ve got a point. Is it a supernatural virtue?

jd

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I must tell you that your story hit me on the head with a hammer. It could not have been better told. It was almost like watching an early Greek play. Almost cathartic. Thank you very much.

There exists a deafening roar, in this thread. There have been essentially no non-theist contributors of late. That, in itself, is telling. Either they don’t care to help me, or, they have nothing to offer.

jd

URW!



I personally don’t think i’m that clever and wonder (as Socrates often did when he had a moment of rare creativity) whether God, or perhaps some messenger of His passed it on to me somehow. Or perhaps i heard the story from someone much more clever than me and have forgotten who it was. Please don’t give me the credit.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You’ve got a point. Is it a supernatural virtue?

jd

You’ve got a point!



My point was that joy is an emotion that is not base. Your point, i think, is that joy is an emotion that, while not base, does not appear to be a virtue.

Let’s consider Love. I’ve heard some extremely clever non-Catholics try to argue that Love is not an emotion, rather, it is merely an action. It seems to me, however, that it is both.

How does it seem to you, JD?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, FH, but if you don’t mind my asking–didn’t we agree that Faith is also a supernatural gift by which whereby we are able to place trust and confidence in things in which we’ve come to believe?

Without rereading everything, I think we agreed that “faith” could probably be used for our purposes to describe what faith and hope combined are traditionally used to describe. But if we then continue to use the word “hope” its’ meaning become a bit vague. “Emotion” seems inadequate because hope involves will and even action and unless it retains trust and confidence as some of its qualities then it would seem to have much less purpose as a theological virtue. It could also depend on how we define emotion, too, I guess, as was discussed a little earlier.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Without rereading everything, I think we agreed that “faith” could probably be used for our purposes to describe what faith and hope combined are traditionally used to describe. But if we then continue to use the word “hope” its’ meaning become a bit vague. “Emotion” seems inadequate because hope involves will and even action and unless it retains trust and confidence as some of its qualities then it would seem to have much less purpose as a theological virtue.

And vagueness is the enemy of cogency. Like a silken cloth that veils the beauty of Hope we should remove vagueness from her as much as possible!



What i think you are saying (and if indeed i am correct in my assessment of your idea then i also agree) is that Hope is more than an emotion. Do you think, then, that she is both an emotion and an act of the will? Or do you think she is an act of the will that causes some emotion?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

FH:

Maybe it would help if we consider a virtue that is not ashamed to remove her veil before us.



Take Love, for example. If we understand her better than Hope, maybe our understanding will help us remove what hides Hope from our eyes.

What think you of Love? Is she both an emotion and action? or is she action along? or is she merely emotion?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Then again, maybe you think this conversation is hopeless and i best leave Hope well enough alone and be wise enough to stop typing?

 

[fhansen]

And vagueness is the enemy of cogency. Like a silken cloth that veils the beauty of Hope we should remove vagueness from her as much as possible!



What i think you are saying (and if indeed i am correct in my assessment of your idea then i also agree) is that Hope is more than an emotion. Do you think, then, that she is both an emotion and an act of the will? Or do you think she is an act of the will that causes some emotion?

I’m not sure how well I can answer but I’d say hope’s a gift of grace that affects our will and emotions and disposition in general towards God and His revelation. And if we think about what it means for ourselves it seems right to say that it’s an empowerment or enablement that we sense or experience within- emotion may be a correct word for that sense but far from an exhaustive description of it, I think. And one side of me may actually wish to resist Faith or Hope-they’re gifts that I can run from. I dunno, emotion just seems a bit lame. What do you think?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m not sure how well I can answer but I’d say hope’s a gift of grace that affects our will and emotions and disposition in general towards God and His revelation. And if we think about what it means for ourselves it seems right to say that it’s an empowerment or enablement that we sense or experience within- emotion may be a correct word for that sense but far from an exhaustive description of it, I think. And one side of me may actually wish to resist Faith or Hope-they’re gifts that I can run from. I dunno, emotion just seems a bit lame. What do you think?

It seems to me that despair is far from lame. It can bring down the mightiest of men as easy as a sure shot of a bullet to the heart. When Alexander the Great came to the realization that there were no more nations he could possibly conquer, he wept and went into depression and became ill and never recovered. Having accomplished so much at such a young age, his hopes were then dashed and he died in despair.

If hope is the cure for something like that, it can have a powerful effect. David’s Psalms are great examples of God bringing a brave man of God from the depths of despair to the heights of hope time and again. I often turn to his words when times are tough and weigh heavily on me.

Still, when i think of the word confidence, it strikes me as an emotion as much as a reasoned understanding. If Faith is a reasoned understanding but not an emotion, it makes sense to me that Hope would be a confident and peaceful feeling but not a reasoned understanding. It would seem then that it is impossible to have confidence in God without both hope and faith.

 

[fhansen]

What think you of Love? Is she both an emotion and action? or is she action along? or is she merely emotion?

Now Love is different, I think, in many ways. Love is, for one thing, essential to the nature of God. I don’t think it could make sense to say that God is Hope or God is Faith. But Love is the very power and nature of God and is known directly-as an experience-palpable may even be an apt description- when in His presence.

And even at the human level love is something we can both give and receive. It could be said, I guess, that I can give someone faith or hope but that would still involve acts which stem from and are guided by love. Our expression of love can manifest itself in a variety of ways and one way or another we generally know it when we see it. Anyway emotion just sounds so weak.

And getting back to the “fear of Love” notion, not directly related to this question except in how it relates to defining Love, perhaps. Fear and Love are incompatible-and so are sin and Love. So it can only make sense that one would have nothing to fear if they chose Love over sin but that perhaps Justice and Wisdom would dictate that Love can’t be faulted for warning us that, if we reject her we’ll miss out on, well…Love.

 

[fhansen]

Still, when i think of the word confidence, it strikes me as an emotion as much as a reasoned understanding. If Faith is a reasoned understanding but not an emotion, it makes sense to me that Hope would be a confident and peaceful feeling but not a reasoned understanding. It would seem then that it is impossible to have confidence in God without both hope and faith.

But are you putting too much emphasis on reason? I mean the truths proposed to us by our faith may not be unreasonable but can’t be ascertained by reason alone.

 

[JDaniel]

You’ve got a point!



My point was that joy is an emotion that is not base. Your point, i think, is that joy is an emotion that, while not base, does not appear to be a virtue.

You are exactly right. And, you said it better (than me).

Let’s consider Love. I’ve heard some extremely clever non-Catholics try to argue that Love is not an emotion, rather, it is merely an action. It seems to me, however, that it is both.

I have to fully agree with you on this point. It is at once an indescribable “feeling” and a sort of pride (in a good way) received from watching the object of ones love encounter the world.

With God, I believe we have part A, but, part B is more aligned with the reciprocity of love.

Poor attempts to describe the indescribable, no?

jd

 

[Sister_G]

Joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

The whole emotion thing…hhmmmm…well…gifts and virtues are not emotions. They can evoke emotion, stirring us to feel something toward the supernatural, uplifting our minds and hearts…but we need to be careful.