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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Me thinks ye has had one too many gottles.A definition was asked for by the OP, & that was my attempt - not a very good one, admittedly - at a definition
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I see you are a farmer, FH. I used to spend much time talking with farmers, as my first job in IT was as a support technician for a software corporation that provided GPS and mapping software for farmers.
I was often impressed by the faith farmers had, being at the mercy of God and the weather and the financial markets. If you don’t mind my asking please tell me, are you planting corn, soy beans, wheat, or some other crop this year?
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fhansen
Guest
We’re on the left coast, CA to be exact, growing wine grapes. I have nephews who grow some corn on our farm as well, tho. You’re right about the weather and markets; farming can be very humbling-every year nature throws up a new challenge, teaching you how limited your own control over things are -kinda like having kids!
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Socrates4Jesus
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Love that California wine! Small world; my grandfather was a farmer, too–he grew potatoes until the day he died in upstate New York. Not many are farmers these days as it is a difficult roe to hoe.We’re on the left coast, CA to be exact, growing wine grapes. I have nephews who grow some corn on our farm as well, tho. You’re right about the weather and markets; farming can be very humbling-every year nature throws up a new challenge, teaching you how limited your own control over things are -kinda like having kids!
Speaking of farming, let’s say that this year brought a dry spell. Let’s say there was genuine concern that you’d lose much of your best crop of grapes.
Let’s also say your priest, out of concern, visited your farm and asked, “Do you believe we will get rain, soon?”
In response you might say, “I do not know, but that is my hope.”
The concerned priest might reply, “I will pray for you, and have strong faith that God will work it all out for your good.”
My question: In this conversation, would you say that the word hope is being used to describe your trust or your desire for rain?
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fhansen
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We are having a dry spell and praying for rain, BTW.
In this usage of the word, I would be describing desire.
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Hamlet123
Guest
Excellent!
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
So, you would agree that Hope is desire, at least in this case. If we were, then, to represent Hope as (H) and desire as (D), we might represent this premise as:
H = D
Are you saying, however, that there are times when Hope is not a desire? In other words, are you saying that
H http://www.mathrec.org/jpeg/symbol-b9.gifD
is also true?
If so, then it appears you might be mistaken, for to say that both are true is to say that
H http://www.mathrec.org/jpeg/symbol-b9.gifH
which is an apparent contradiction.
My thinking is that Hope either is or is not a desire but cannot both be a desire and not be a desire.
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Hamlet123
Guest
Well, the Efficient cause definition (what makes hope) I believe is found in this discussion - ones looking at the future.
And the Final cause definition (what it [hope] is designed to do) I believe is here also - to desire
And the Material cause definition (what is hope composed of) - likewise stated in this discussion - mental pictures and emotion.
But what then is hope’s essence? I hope this goes on; I am not sure things like beauty, true, something, hope etc can be defined of their essences. What say ye?
And the Final cause definition (what it [hope] is designed to do) I believe is here also - to desire
And the Material cause definition (what is hope composed of) - likewise stated in this discussion - mental pictures and emotion.
But what then is hope’s essence? I hope this goes on; I am not sure things like beauty, true, something, hope etc can be defined of their essences. What say ye?
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davidv
Guest
It is a contradiction because as I demonstrated in post #36 your first premise is false, thereby making your conclusion is invalid.
Which brings us back to a point I thought was settled, which was that hope does not equal desire, eventhough desire is part of it.
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fhansen
Guest
Well, hope as a virtue defined by the CC is always a desire together with a trust or confidence that the desire can be fulfilled.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Well, you FH might recall earlier in our conversation that i asked if you believed Hope was desire and Faith was trust, or if you believed Hope was a weaker form of Faith.
Post 30
At that time, your answer was that Faith is trust and Hope is not a weaker form of Faith.
Post 31
I believe the conclusion was that the definition of Hope given by the CCC defines both Hope and Faith and then appears to indicate that Faith is a cause of Hope.
Post 33
Post 33 bears repeating:
We three appear to be in agreement, then, at least until some other evidence changes our minds. We concur that hope is not (h). My hope is that we are correct that Daughter Hope is not a weaker form of her Mother Faith.
With this flicker of truth, let’s take another look at the CCC:
Quote:
1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.”
As noted earlier, there are two premises here:
(a)
Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness
and
(b)
placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.
It seems to me that (b) is not what hope is, for we agree that (h) is false, where
(h) = the premise that hope is a weaker form of belief than faith.
Am i understanding you both correctly?
Are you FH now saying that, in the light of new information, you have (as i have myself done) changed your mind?
Post 30
At that time, your answer was that Faith is trust and Hope is not a weaker form of Faith.
Post 31
I believe the conclusion was that the definition of Hope given by the CCC defines both Hope and Faith and then appears to indicate that Faith is a cause of Hope.
Post 33
Post 33 bears repeating:
We three appear to be in agreement, then, at least until some other evidence changes our minds. We concur that hope is not (h). My hope is that we are correct that Daughter Hope is not a weaker form of her Mother Faith.
With this flicker of truth, let’s take another look at the CCC:
Quote:
1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.”
As noted earlier, there are two premises here:
(a)
Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness
and
(b)
placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.
It seems to me that (b) is not what hope is, for we agree that (h) is false, where
(h) = the premise that hope is a weaker form of belief than faith.
Am i understanding you both correctly?
Are you FH now saying that, in the light of new information, you have (as i have myself done) changed your mind?
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, I have changed my mind in having had clarified for me the Catholic position on these two virtues. Hope is not a weaker version of Faith because *Hope *is the virtue that includes trust so that Faith, if anything, is a weaker version of hope in terms of trusting in the promises one believes God has made. IOW, the theological virtue of Faith is not to place ones trust in God-Hope is. Faith is causative by providing Hope its material. Is this your mind on the topic?
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Eucharisted
Guest
Hope
1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."84 "The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."85
1818 The virtue of hope responds to the aspiration to happiness which God has placed in the heart of every man; it takes up the hopes that inspire men’s activities and purifies them so as to order them to the Kingdom of heaven; it keeps man from discouragement; it sustains him during times of abandonment; it opens up his heart in expectation of eternal beatitude. Buoyed up by hope, he is preserved from selfishness and led to the happiness that flows from charity.
1819 Christian hope takes up and fulfills the hope of the chosen people which has its origin and model in the hope of Abraham, who was blessed abundantly by the promises of God fulfilled in Isaac, and who was purified by the test of the sacrifice.86 "Hoping against hope, he believed, and thus became the father of many nations."87
1820 Christian hope unfolds from the beginning of Jesus’ preaching in the proclamation of the beatitudes. the beatitudes raise our hope toward heaven as the new Promised Land; they trace the path that leads through the trials that await the disciples of Jesus. But through the merits of Jesus Christ and of his Passion, God keeps us in the "hope that does not disappoint."88 Hope is the "sure and steadfast anchor of the soul . . . that enters . . . where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf."89 Hope is also a weapon that protects us in the struggle of salvation: "Let us . . . put on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation."90 It affords us joy even under trial: "Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation."91 Hope is expressed and nourished in prayer, especially in the Our Father, the summary of everything that hope leads us to desire.
1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."94 She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:
Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end.95
Also see Pope Benedict XVI’s encyclical Spe Salvi (In Hope).
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
My apologies for being so slow to understand, but i do not. Please explain, perhaps by way of an analogy or example.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Perhaps you FH are correct, but i’d like to have complete trust in what you say before we move on. (It remains to be seen whether my trust will turn out to be hope or faith in the truth of your words.)
Whenever there is a confusion in my mind as to the truth of some idea about virtue, i like to consult what others more wise than myself had to say. In the case of Hope and Faith, i’d like you and i to consider the words of the writer of Hebrews:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
(Hebrews 11:1)
Now, the words being sure mean to have complete trust in something or someone. Thus, the Biblical author appears to be saying that Faith is trust. If he meant instead that Hope was trust, he might have wrote:
Now hope is being sure of what we have faith in and certain of what we do not see.
(Hebrews 11:1, revised)
Are you saying that the writer of Hebrews is mistaken about the meaning of both Faith and Hope and that the Biblical text should be revised?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
How then should i interpret these words, Eucharisted? Is Hope desire and expectation? or is it trust and certainty? or is it both or neither?
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davidv
Guest
OK. Let’s try this:
The CCC defines hopes as:
"Hope is the theological virtue by which we [1)] desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, [2)] placing our trust in Christ’s promises and [3)] relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.”
In this this definition I see “hope” made of 3 distinct parts (see added numbering above).
- desire
- placing trust
- relying…
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davidv
Guest
No, the writer cannot be mistaken, only our interpretations can be.Perhaps you FH are correct, but i’d like to have complete trust in what you say before we move on. (It remains to be seen whether my trust will turn out to be hope or faith in the truth of your words.)
Whenever there is a confusion in my mind as to the truth of some idea about virtue, i like to consult what others more wise than myself had to say. In the case of Hope and Faith, i’d like you and i to consider the words of the writer of Hebrews:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.(Hebrews 11:1)Now, the words being sure mean to have complete trust in something or someone. Thus, the Biblical author appears to be saying that Faith is trust. If he meant instead that Hope was trust, he might have wrote:
Now hope is being sure of what we have faith in and certain of what we do not see.(Hebrews 11:1, revised)Are you saying that the writer of Hebrews is mistaken about the meaning of both Faith and Hope and that the Biblical text should be revised?
I believe that these words are consistent with what I learned from the “Virtue” acticle in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
That being; faith is that which perfects our intellect. This allows us to know clearly what we can put our trust in.
Hope perfects the will thereby strengthening our conviction to trust in what we know.
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fhansen
Guest
The writer of Hebrews was not defining dogma even though he knew the faith well of course-it’s the Church’s job to get precise in stating, supporting, and proclaiming truth.Perhaps you FH are correct, but i’d like to have complete trust in what you say before we move on. (It remains to be seen whether my trust will turn out to be hope or faith in the truth of your words.)
Whenever there is a confusion in my mind as to the truth of some idea about virtue, i like to consult what others more wise than myself had to say. In the case of Hope and Faith, i’d like you and i to consider the words of the writer of Hebrews:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
(Hebrews 11:1)
Now, the words being sure mean to have complete trust in something or someone. Thus, the Biblical author appears to be saying that Faith is trust. If he meant instead that Hope was trust, he might have wrote:
Now hope is being sure of what we have faith in and certain of what we do not see.
(Hebrews 11:1, revised)
Are you saying that the writer of Hebrews is mistaken about the meaning of both Faith and Hope and that the Biblical text should be revised?
However, Faith is to be sure of the truths one hopes in. Hope is to desire and have confidence or trust that those things revealed to us will happen. Hope is a placing of ones trust-of oneself-in the hands of God. Faith is to come to know the things of God-His revelation- and believe they’re true in spite of the fact that we can’t now see face to face.
However, in the CCCs description of the virtues, there seems to be some overlapping between Faith and Hope on the matter of trust. I think they’re nearly inseparable without being identical in that one cannot Hope without Faith, and God might not give the gift of Faith without also granting the gift of Hope -but it is possible to lose Hope without losing Faith according to Catholic teaching. Perhaps the combination of Faith and Hope are close to the fiduciary faith of the Reformers without the overconfidence of absolute assurance of salvation.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes! I hope–i mean i have faith that–i mean whatever i have, i believe you have pointed the way to the answer to our Faith-Hope dilemma!
And i’m embarrassed to admit that Wise Old Socrates’ phrase that he coined long ago now is apparently applicable to my ignorance. He appears to now be saying to me, “But have you not already under your nose what you both … have long wanted to see?” (Philebus 18).
In fact, i recall this idea was proposed earlier, but not seriously considered, and now the time seems right to raise the question again: Do you FH and you David think that Faith and Hope, at least in the case of the human Christian virtue, are inseparable to the point that they are one? Could it be that Faith and Hope are two aspects of the same virtue like heads and tails are two sides of the same coin?
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/897/her07.jpg
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