Hope

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Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes! I hope–i mean i have faith that–i mean whatever i have, i believe you have pointed the way to the answer to our Faith-Hope dilemma!

And i’m embarrassed to admit that Wise Old Socrates’ phrase that he coined long ago now is apparently applicable to my ignorance. He appears to now be saying to me, “But have you not already under your nose what you both … have long wanted to see?” (Philebus 18).

In fact, i recall this idea was proposed earlier, but not seriously considered, and now the time seems right to raise the question again: Do you FH and you David think that Faith and Hope, at least in the case of the human Christian virtue, are inseparable to the point that they are one? Could it be that Faith and Hope are two aspects of the same virtue like heads and tails are two sides of the same coin?

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/897/her07.jpg
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In Catholic thought, faith and hope are not identical. It’s possible to believe that God exists and that the miracles were true and that Jesus rose from the dead and still not place ones hope in God or His promises- and even detest Him (i.e. not have the virtues of hope or love). This is why faith can be dead. There were Jewish leaders who believed but allowed their pride to overrule their faith:

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. John 12:42-43

And of course, James tells us that “even the demons believe and tremble.”

When I said that faith and hope may be nearly inseparable, what I was getting at is that God might not generally grant one without the other, His purpose for His gifts always being directed towards our salvation. However, that’s sort of speculative since apparently they do exist without each other as I also pointed out. As to the combining of the two virtues, I was suggesting that the Reformers had mistakenly done so, then relying on faith (to them meaning knowledge/hope/trust) alone for salvation.

Here’s some related material from Ludwig Otts’ Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

**Charity and grievous sin are mutually exclusive. The contrary teaching of Baius was rejected.

The theological virtue of faith is, as the Council of Trent expressly defined, not always lost with the state of grace. The faith remaining behind is a true faith, even if it be not a living faith. The virtue of faith is lost by the sin of unbelief, which is directed against the nature of faith.

The theological virtue of hope can exist without charity, not, however, without faith. It is lost by the sin of despair, which is directed against the nature of hope, and by the sin of unbelief. **

And related to this whole thread, I think:
**In consonance with the old Christian practice of the catechumenate, the Fathers teach that faith alone does not suffice for justification. St Augustine says: “Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail.”
**
 
Perhaps it would help me understand if i were to read the CCC definition of faith.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Perhaps it would help me understand if i were to read the CCC definition of faith.
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Also, if you get a chance wade thru the article on faith in the Catholic Ecyclopedia here:
newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm
It’s a bit lengthy but worth the effort if you give it some consideration, I think, because it helps spell out the Catholic position on faith as a virtue and clears up some of the differences in usage of the word which might be causing us some problems here. Thank you in any case for the dialog so far. I’ve enjoyed it and learned much from yourself and others and from the digging you got me to do. Even tho I’ve had to risk my life and put in the effort of exploring a few places I haven’t been before, and even tho my understanding is still imperfect I’m sure, I’ll be a victor in any case because of some new ground I’ve gained.
 
Hamlet123 said:
Well, the Efficient cause definition (what makes hope) I believe is found in this discussion - ones looking at the future.

And the Final cause definition (what it [hope] is designed to do) I believe is here also - to desire

And the Material cause definition (what is hope composed of) - likewise stated in this discussion - mental pictures and emotion.

But what then is hope’s essence? I hope this goes on; I am not sure things like beauty, true, something, hope etc can be defined of their essences. What say ye?
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Hamlet:

It is my sincere hope you will add more to the conversation! Speaking of Hope, when i say, “It is my sincere hope …” which of the following would you say i most likely mean? Do you think i mean that:


  1. *]i desire you will stick around? or
    *]i think you might stick around? or
    *]i know without any doubt you will stick around? or
    *]i not only know but have complete trust in the fact that you will stick around?
 
davidv said:
OK. Let’s try this:
The CCC defines hopes as:

"Hope is the theological virtue by which we [1)] desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, [2)] placing our trust in Christ’s promises and [3)] relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.”

In this definition I see “hope” made of 3 distinct parts (see added numbering above).
  1. desire
  2. placing trust
  3. relying…
So, Hope = 1) + 2) + 3) and cannot be Hope = 1)
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Ahhh, then if you are correct, i’m more deceived than the good knight Sir FH ever was! For he, failing to look into the eyes of his lady Love, failed to realize she was not the great Love of God, but merely the lesser human love.

I, on the other hand, was twice as deceived, for i looked my two young maidens right in the eyes and pledged my willingness to fight for both of them. Now, it seems, i might be completely mistaken about both of them.

For i thought that when i had complete confidence in some truth, or even in God Himself, that i was holding fast to the confident grasp of Lady Faith. And when i longed for something to come true, or even had great expectation that it would come to be, but had no certainty that it would, i thought i was feeling the innocent caress of Lady Hope.

You and FH now appear to be telling me i’m completely mistaken, for what i thought was Faith is really Hope, and Hope is actually Faith. You, sir, are turning my beliefs on their heads! So, please bear with me if it takes some time for me to get used to the idea
 
fhansen said:
In Catholic thought, faith and hope are not identical. It’s possible to believe that God exists and that the miracles were true and that Jesus rose from the dead and still not place ones hope in God or His promises- and even detest Him (i.e. not have the virtues of hope or love). This is why faith can be dead. There were Jewish leaders who believed but allowed their pride to overrule their faith:
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FH:

Let me try to paraphrase what i believe you are saying. Please them tell me if i am correct.

What we appear to be discussing here are different kinds of belief–Hope being one kind and Faith being another. The disagreement we are apparently having is in regard to what type of belief Hope is and what type of belief is Faith.

Now, when i get confused as to the meaning of words, i go back to the basics–i start with the dictionary. It might seem childish for me to do so, but i want to start with what i know to get my footing before i climb to the heights of some peak i’ve never visited before. So, please allow me to consider these definitions of belief from the Dictionary.com website:

be·lieve (bĭ-lēv’) Pronunciation Key
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves

…

v. intr.

  1. *]To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
    *]To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem.
    *]To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech.
    *]To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe.

    [Middle English bileven, from Old English belȳfan, belēfan, gelēfan; see leubh- in Indo-European roots.]
    be·liev’er n.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    Now, up until our present joust, i’ve always believed (that is, i had no doubt and complete confidence that) Faith was either (1) or (2). I also, before this present contest, understood Hope to be desire without any belief at all, or perhaps desire with belief as expressed by (4) or perhaps (3).

    Now, am i correct in assuming that you are saying Hope is (1) or (2) and Faith is merely (3) or (4)?
 
The lance struck true, dethroning him from his saddle and painfully throwing him to the ground. But Faith, the shield he named after the lady for whom he valiantly fought, remained true to her name and protected him from death.

Hardly able to take a breath and suffering pain from the blow in his shield arm and side, he struggled to raise his head and was glad to see that his hope was realized: Hope, the lance he had named for the other lady whose honor he was defending, had thrown his combatant from his steed as well.

There was still hope he’d win the day, but victory was not yet certain, for Sir FH had already raised himself to his feet and forcefully drew his sword from it’s scabbard. Sir Socrates struggled to do the same as his enemy quickly approached with the sword held high above his helmet in both hands.

 
Socrates4Jesus said:
What i see when i look in the mirror is that i’m becoming more like Socrates every day (losing my hair, you see)!

Speaking of absolutes, what do you think is the one trait that the many different kinds of faith have in common?
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The most common, would be they all believe in something bigger than themselves.

Include buddhaism and the answer would be Nothing.

🙂
 
Is there a chance here, that hope is something that is not really definable, but something you just accept or live with?

Kind of like Life?
 
Dameedna said:
Is there a chance here, that hope is something that is not really definable, but something you just accept or live with?

Kind of like Life?
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Perhaps. Are you saying a complete understanding of Hope is impossible, but an incomplete understanding is within the realm of possibility? Or are you saying an not even a partial understanding of Hope is possible?

🤷
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
FH:

Let me try to paraphrase what i believe you are saying. Please them tell me if i am correct.

What we appear to be discussing here are different kinds of belief–Hope being one kind and Faith being another. The disagreement we are apparently having is in regard to what type of belief Hope is and what type of belief is Faith.

Now, when i get confused as to the meaning of words, i go back to the basics–i start with the dictionary. It might seem childish for me to do so, but i want to start with what i know to get my footing before i climb to the heights of some peak i’ve never visited before. So, please allow me to consider these definitions of belief from the Dictionary.com website:

be·lieve (bĭ-lēv’) Pronunciation Key
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves

…

v. intr.

  1. *]To have firm faith, especially religious faith.
    *]To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem.
    *]To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech.
    *]To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe.

    [Middle English bileven, from Old English belȳfan, belēfan, gelēfan; see leubh- in Indo-European roots.]
    be·liev’er n.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    Now, up until our present joust, i’ve always believed (that is, i had no doubt and complete confidence that) Faith was either (1) or (2). I also, before this present contest, understood Hope to be desire without any belief at all, or perhaps desire with belief as expressed by (4) or perhaps (3).

    Now, am i correct in assuming that you are saying Hope is (1) or (2) and Faith is merely (3) or (4)?
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  1. A dictionary definition of faith or hope may or may not coincide with the CCs’ definition of them for the purpose of describing the theological virtues of faith or hope, which, I believe, we’re discussing here.

    So, from that perspective, to have faith is to have knowledge of God and of His will and believe it to be true. To have hope is to even care- and so to place ones trust in that knowledge. One must want Gods will to me done in their lives and trust that it will be done-demons, for example, don’t.
 
Faith and hope are not one and the same. However, they must both be present in order for one to be justified. But to sum up Catholic thought on how man satisfies the will of God St John of the Cross said it best:
**
“At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.”**
 
fhansen said:
A dictionary definition of faith or hope may or may not coincide with the CCs’ definition of them for the purpose of describing the theological virtues of faith or hope, which, I believe, we’re discussing here.

So, from that perspective, to have faith is to have knowledge of God and of His will and believe it to be true. To have hope is to even care- and so to place ones trust in that knowledge. One must want Gods will to me done in their lives and trust that it will be done-demons, for example, don’t.
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Well, i suppose you have a better understanding of the current Catholic understanding of the meaning of Hope and Faith than i do. I find it interesting that the CCC itself is subject to interpretation, and i suppose that thoughtful Catholics even disagree as to how to interpret the CCC interpretations of the meanings of Hope and Faith.

The text we have quoted certainly appears to be ambiguous, though not vague. For, it is not impossible to interpret the words

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.”
(CCC 1817 )

As the phrase (a) being the definition of Hope and (b) being an explanation of the cause, or perhaps effect, of Hope, where

(a) =

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness

and

(b) =

placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Two proposals to settle the matter:

  1. ]Consider a explanation by a few reliable Church authorities as to the meaning of Hope]Quote the CCC definition of Faith and compare that to the definition of Hope
 
fhansen said:
Faith and hope are not one and the same. However, they must both be present in order for one to be justified. But to sum up Catholic thought on how man satisfies the will of God St John of the Cross said it best:
**
“At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.”**
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I do agree with this, even though i do not yet see eye-to-eye with you on the meaning of my ladies Hope and Faith. I do find some support for your argument: An archaic meaning of the word hope is to trust. An example of another archaic meaning of a word is found in the word charity, for the text of 1 Corinthians 13:13 was once translated as:

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(from the King James version of the passage)

Today, the word charity no long means selfless love, so a modern reader of the King James version might mistake this for saying the non-prophet organizations are greater than faith or hope in God. Modern translations alleviate this confusion by translating the Greek as love instead of charity. It might help the Catholic Church to translate the word hope as something else and be done with it.

That being said, i shall leave it up to you to decide if you want to (1) provide any teaching from some trustworthy (or should i say hope-worthy?) Catholic authorities, or (2) provide the CCC definition of Faith for our consideration.

If you would like to leave well enough alone for now and agree to disagree for the moment, i’m OK with that. Winning some kind of debate–despite the jest of comparing our dialog to a joust–is not my goal. Coming to a better understanding of the truth about Hope and Faith and Love are what i’m after.

So, i think you or i should consider following the Father of Philosophy’s advice, as Socrates said:

But i want to avoid this argument which now assails us. I plan to escape it … and you better make your escape with me.
(Philebus 43)

I’m willing to consider whether sisters Faith and Hope together are greater than princess Love alone, if you are as willing to continue the discussion as i am.
 
Thank you Socrates.

I am sad to read this may be the end of this discussion.

The following may add some insight of what has already been, to me, and excellent discussion.

From “Love Your God With All Your Mind” author J.P. Moreland Chapter Two Sketching a Biblical Portrait of the Life of the Mind, page 60 4. Distorting the nature of faith as a matter of the heart, not the head:

As we have already seen, some think faith is opposed to or should be separated from reason. This [argument] is sometimes supported by Jesus’ own teaching about the importance of being like little children in order to enter the kingdom of God (Matthew 18:1-4). It is also justified by the idea that a relationship with God is a matter of the heart, not the head.

Unfortunately, the opinion just expressed does not capture the substance of biblical teaching. In Scripture, faith can be directed at different things – most frequently, at a statement or a person, especially God. To have faith in a statement means to let yourself be convinced of and, therefore, accept the statement as true. To have faith in God means to firmly rely on Him. Either way, faith is relying on what you have reason to believe is true and trustworthy. Faith involves the readiness to act as if something were so.

/Throughout church history, theologians have expressed three different aspects of biblical faith: notitia (knowledge), fiducia (trust), and assensus (assent). Notitiea refers to the data………(Jude 1:3). Assensus denotes the assent of the intellect to the truth of the content of Christian teaching. Note that each of these aspects of faith requires a careful exercise of reason, both in understanding what the teachings of Christianity are and in judging their truthfulness. In this way, reason is indispensible for the third aspect of faith – fiducia – which captures the personal application or trust involved in faith, an act that primarily involves the will but includes the affections and intellect too…………………
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I do agree with this, even though i do not yet see eye-to-eye with you on the meaning of my ladies Hope and Faith. I do find some support for your argument: An archaic meaning of the word hope is to trust. An example of another archaic meaning of a word is found in the word charity, for the text of 1 Corinthians 13:13 was once translated as:

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(from the King James version of the passage)

Today, the word charity no long means selfless love, so a modern reader of the King James version might mistake this for saying the non-prophet organizations are greater than faith or hope in God. Modern translations alleviate this confusion by translating the Greek as love instead of charity. It might help the Catholic Church to translate the word hope as something else and be done with it.

That being said, i shall leave it up to you to decide if you want to (1) provide any teaching from some trustworthy (or should i say hope-worthy?) Catholic authorities, or (2) provide the CCC definition of Faith for our consideration.

If you would like to leave well enough alone for now and agree to disagree for the moment, i’m OK with that. Winning some kind of debate–despite the jest of comparing our dialog to a joust–is not my goal. Coming to a better understanding of the truth about Hope and Faith and Love are what i’m after.

So, i think you or i should consider following the Father of Philosophy’s advice, as Socrates said:

But i want to avoid this argument which now assails us. I plan to escape it … and you better make your escape with me.
(Philebus 43)

I’m willing to consider whether sisters Faith and Hope together are greater than princess Love alone, if you are as willing to continue the discussion as i am.
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Someone with a better theological background than me should chime in here. I did try to back up my understanding and “flesh out” the CCCs teaching with some sources considered to be relatively sound in their theology, the Catholic Encyclopedia (I’d still urge you to read the article on Faith if you haven’t), Otts’ Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (consider some points in the paragraphs I quoted, that a true but “non-living” faith can remain with the loss of grace and that faith can exist without hope but not the other way around), as well as scripture.

I’m still far from convinced of your position on love. Are you asserting that love is simply a virtue difficult to cultivate or grow in-which I’d whole-heartily agree with-or do you maintain that having it is not efficacious or necessary for obtaining salvation?
 
Hamlet123 said:
Thank you Socrates.

I am sad to read this may be the end of this discussion.

The following may add some insight of what has already been, to me, and excellent discussion.

From “Love Your God With All Your Mind” author J.P. Moreland Chapter Two Sketching a Biblical Portrait of the Life of the Mind, page 60 4. Distorting the nature of faith as a matter of the heart, not the head:

As we have already seen, some think faith is opposed to or should be separated from reason. This [argument] is sometimes supported by Jesus’ own teaching about the importance of being like little children in order to enter the kingdom of God (Matthew 18:1-4). It is also justified by the idea that a relationship with God is a matter of the heart, not the head.

Unfortunately, the opinion just expressed does not capture the substance of biblical teaching. In Scripture, faith can be directed at different things – most frequently, at a statement or a person, especially God. To have faith in a statement means to let yourself be convinced of and, therefore, accept the statement as true. To have faith in God means to firmly rely on Him. Either way, faith is relying on what you have reason to believe is true and trustworthy. Faith involves the readiness to act as if something were so.

/Throughout church history, theologians have expressed three different aspects of biblical faith: notitia (knowledge), fiducia (trust), and assensus (assent). Notitiea refers to the data………(Jude 1:3). Assensus denotes the assent of the intellect to the truth of the content of Christian teaching. Note that each of these aspects of faith requires a careful exercise of reason, both in understanding what the teachings of Christianity are and in judging their truthfulness. In this way, reason is indispensible for the third aspect of faith – fiducia – which captures the personal application or trust involved in faith, an act that primarily involves the will but includes the affections and intellect too…………………
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Well, i may be willing to agree to disagree about some things, but i’m still interested in discerning whether Love is greater than Faith and Hope. I do appreciate your comments on the meaning of Faith. They are consistent with what i’m still convinced Faith is.

👍

However, as i told FH, i’m willing to learn something new if that something is clearly shown to be closer to the truth.
 
fhansen said:
Someone with a better theological background than me should chime in here. I did try to back up my understanding and “flesh out” the CCCs teaching with some sources considered to be relatively sound in their theology, the Catholic Encyclopedia (I’d still urge you to read the article on Faith if you haven’t), Otts’ Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (consider some points in the paragraphs I quoted, that a true but “non-living” faith can remain with the loss of grace and that faith can exist without hope but not the other way around), as well as scripture.

I’m still far from convinced of your position on love. Are you asserting that love is simply a virtue difficult to cultivate or grow in-which I’d whole-heartily agree with-or do you maintain that having it is not efficacious or necessary for obtaining salvation?
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I’m really not sure. What would you say is the nature of the Lady Love whom you defend?

🤷

Also, if you care to answer, what did you glean from the Catholic Encyclopedia’s explanation of my Lady Faith?
 
Since you FH asked me to not stop investigating the meaning of Faith, i did so. If you FH, or David, or anyone else wants to explore what Faith is, this document i found at the Vatican’s website might help us:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm

**III. THE CHARACTERISTICS OF FAITH

Faith is a grace **

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”. Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’”

**Faith is a human act
**
154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of… intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

155 In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: “Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.”

If you are interested in exploring this evidence from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it appears to me that Faith indeed is trust in God’s promises. If this is so, perhaps both FH and myself are in error–FH being mistaken in saying that Faith is not trust and my mistake being that i believed Hope was not trust. If we are to put faith in the CCC, it seems that the two ladies might be the daughters of their mother Trust.
 
I’m somewhat of a visual learner. When i’m trying to comprehend (or at least apprehend) a new idea, i paint a picture in my mind that represents that idea, and then step back and consider it’s reasonableness and beauty.

The picture i now see looks something like this one.

http://www.hahnalei.net/graylight/A...Avta_Foundation_for_Primes_files/image006.jpg

Where:

U = My thoughts
B = Trust
C = Faith in God
A = Hope in God

At the moment, it appears to me that nearly all Faith in God (C) has some degree of trust (as represented by the dark green). Not 100% of Faith has her mother Trust’s trait, but a good majority of it, i think. Yet, as we discussed earlier, **not all **who hope in God actually do trust Him, (though perhaps all genuine Catholic Hope might require some degree of trust in Him). This might be the case where a person has an irrational hope, or even a reasonable but misguided hope, that God will do something that He has no intention of doing. Hence, Hope in God (A) is divided into hope that does not trust Him (represented by the color white) and hope that always trusts Him (indicated by the color yellow).

An example might be a person who prays that she will win the lottery, promising God that she will give half of the earnings to Catholic Charities. Now, this woman might have complete faith in the knowledge that God answers prayer (C, dark green) but only hopes that He will answer the prayer Yes, instead of No (A, white). She has no certainty that God will grant her request, but she hopes that He will work such a miracle for her. One can pray with trust that God will always answer, and also hope (but have no certainty nor trust) that the answer will indeed be yes.

This certainly appears to be what St. John is telling us when he writes:

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

(1 John 5)

Since it is true that God gives us whatever we ask for that is His will for us, it stands to reason that God does not give us whatever is not His will for us to have. There are many things for which i hope and pray that, looking back on it, i’m glad God did not give me.

If you are willing FH, David, Hamlet, or anyone else, please let me know what you think of this idea.
 
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