Hope

[davidv]

I’m somewhat of a visual learner. When i’m trying to comprehend (or at least apprehend) a new idea, i paint a picture in my mind that represents that idea, and then step back and consider it’s reasonableness and beauty.

The picture i now see looks something like this one.

http://www.hahnalei.net/graylight/A...Avta_Foundation_for_Primes_files/image006.jpg

Where:

U = My thoughtsB = TrustC = Faith in GodA = Hope in God
At the moment, it appears to me that nearly all Faith in God (C) has some degree of trust (as represented by the dark green). Not 100% of Faith has her mother Trust’s trait, but a good majority of it, i think. Yet, as we discussed earlier, **not all **who hope in God actually do trust Him, (though perhaps all genuine Catholic Hope might require some degree of trust in Him). This might be the case where a person has an irrational hope, or even a reasonable but misguided hope, that God will do something that He has no intention of doing. Hence, Hope in God (A) is divided into hope that does not trust Him (represented by the color white) and hope that always trusts Him (indicated by the color yellow).

An example might be a person who prays that she will win the lottery, promising God that she will give half of the earnings to Catholic Charities. Now, this woman might have complete faith in the knowledge that God answers prayer (C, dark green) but only hopes that He will answer the prayer Yes, instead of No (A, white). She has no certainty that God will grant her request, but she hopes that He will work such a miracle for her. One can pray with trust that God will always answer, and also hope (but have no certainty nor trust) that the answer will indeed be yes.

This certainly appears to be what St. John is telling us when he writes:

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

(1 John 5)Since it is true that God gives us whatever we ask for that is His will for us, it stands to reason that God does not give us whatever is not His will for us to have. There are many things for which i hope and pray that, looking back on it, i’m glad God did not give me.

If you are willing FH, David, Hamlet, or anyone else, please let me know what you think of this idea.

A few of my thoughts. It is telling to me that many english words run in parallel in the definitions and descriptions of the subjects of this discussion. To me this highlights, once again, how inadequate our language is in describing our awesome God and our pursuit of Him.

The fact that “trust” shows up in both faith and hope suggests to me that neither faith nor hope can exist completely devoid of the other.

Regarding your diagram: How did you decide on the relative size of each bubble? And, more importantly where is “Love”?

From a prior post of yours:

If we are to put faith in the CCC, it seems that the two ladies might be the daughters of their mother Trust.

I believe this relationship is actually the inverse of what you propose. That is, both faith and hope “give birth” to trust.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

A few of my thoughts. It is telling to me that many english words run in parallel in the definitions and descriptions of the subjects of this discussion. To me this highlights, once again, how inadequate our language is in describing our awesome God and our pursuit of Him.

… Regarding your diagram: How did you decide on the relative size of each bubble? And, more importantly where is “Love”?

…

Thank you for responding, David. Yes, i agree that there is more beauty and mystery beneath the skins of fair Hope and Faith than you or i might have first imagined!

The size of the bubble is determined by the one who made it, not me. In the interest of time i did a Google for the image instead of creating one and adding it to one of my websites.

In regard to where Love is, i have not yet begun to consider her. Earlier in our discussion, we all consented that she was an effect of Faith and Hope. I’d be interested to know if you have a different idea at the moment.

Whether Love is an attribute of Hope or Faith, or whether Hope or Faith are attributes of Love is another question. But before we get ahead of ourselves, i think it would be wise to get as close as we are able to some kind of agreement about the natures of Faith and Hope, if you desire to do so.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… The fact that “trust” shows up in both faith and hope suggests to me that neither faith nor hope can exist completely devoid of the other. …
From a prior post of yours:
I believe this relationship is actually the inverse of what you propose. That is, both faith and hope “give birth” to trust.

Would you say a cause is the same as its effect, or do you believe a cause cannot be the same as that which it brings to life?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Or do you think, as i’m starting to think, that Trust is neither the mother nor daughter of Faith or Hope? I’m now thinking Trust is an attribute–rather than a cause or consequence–of both Faith and Hope.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The mail and plate of Sir FH rattled threateningly as he closed within striking range of Sir Socrates. The fallen knight, still on his knees, had not time to bring himself to his feed. Attempting to raise his shield, he could not and let out a low yelp, like a wounded wolf hound. Pain revealed his left arm was broken.

“Your shield Faith cannot protect you now, your grace!” the muffled voice Sir FH proclaimed triumphantly from behind his helmet’s visor. “Your grace would have done well to not put confidence in her, for like your lady by the same name, she posseses no trustworthiness!”

“She was trustworthy to save from your lance, your grace,” was Sir Socrates’ reply, “and truth shall protect me now!” He withdrew his sword from it’s scabbard, holding it firmly in his right hand.

“Victory is mine,” the standing knight affirmed, raising his sword with both hands and threatening to bring down the final blow. “Yield, I pray ye! Admit my Love is the greatest of the princesses in Her Majesty’s court and I shall spare thy life!”

“Nay, your grace, death is more becoming than speaking such slander.”

The blade descended with great speed toward it’s mark–the neck of the fallen knight. Yet, Sir Socrates’ blade was more quick and true. Meeting the attack with a tremendous clash, the broadsword released itself from the grasp of Sir FH. Its flight ended with the tip piercing the earth, several paces out of reach of the unarmed foe.

Peering up at his stunned opponent with a look of godly determination, Sir Socrates remarked, “Your grace would have done well to remember that Truth is a sword best grasped firmly.”

http://www.officialticketcenter.com/Images/products/Category_text/medi1.gif

 

[Hamlet123]

Socrates:
What a way! what a way! to summarize this discussion. I hope I can find you on all the discussion threads. Have you written any books?

By the way, Peter Kreeft in his Catechism quotes an old Chinesse proverb. It goes something like this:

Fact, Faith and Feelings are walking on a precarious cliff. As long as Faith and Feelings keep their eyes on Fact no one falls. When either Faith or Feelings take their eyes off of Fact they both (Faith and Feeling) fall; but Fact never falls.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates:
What a way! what a way! to summarize this discussion. I hope I can find you on all the discussion threads. Have you written any books?

By the way, Peter Kreeft in his Catechism quotes an old Chinesse proverb. It goes something like this:

Fact, Faith and Feelings are walking on a precarious cliff. As long as Faith and Feelings keep their eyes on Fact no one falls. When either Faith or Feelings take their eyes off of Fact they both (Faith and Feeling) fall; but Fact never falls.

No books. Why would anyone pay for such dribble? But its fun to add a little color in jest in a forum such as this.

One of my favorite discussions in which i participated here were two threads regarding the Eucharist. The links to these are here:

A Tale of Two Eucharists

A Tale of Two Eucharists (Continued)

Don’t bore yourself by reading the whole thing. Reading the first few posts of the first and the last few posts of the last will show how my thoughts and attitude were transformed by the discussion with several extremely patient people.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

BTW. All joust jests aside, i’m willing to continue the dialog with FH, David, yourself, or anyone else who desires to help me better understand Faith, Hope or Love. I’ve learn some new ideas already and am willing to explore the truth further.

 

[davidv]

Or do you think, as i’m starting to think, that Trust is neither the mother nor daughter of Faith or Hope? I’m now thinking Trust is an attribute–rather than a cause or consequence–of both Faith and Hope.

In searching for information relative to trust, I encountered this statement that bears heavily on our discussion.

2086 "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say ‘God’ we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: ‘I am the LORD.’"8

 

[Hamlet123]

Socrates:
Thank you for the recommendation regarding the Eucharist. A short note: I was a devout Baptist and studied the Catholic faith. I came to the conclusion that, in fact, it is the full Christian faith. But I loved my Baptist home and so I decided I would be a secret Catholic. A problem happened: I started going to Mass regularly and could not keep "it"quite.

I so wish my dear Baptist friends, who dearly love Jesus, could know the joy the comfort of the Mass.

The reason for this note:
How about starting a blogg entitled Authority, What is it? How do we determine what or who is Authority? How reliable is it? What is its opposite? Can we be our own authority? and in what matters? etc etc etc And do the Marlins have any chance in hell of making the play-offs in 2009?

 

[fhansen]

The mail and plate of Sir FH rattled threateningly as he closed within striking range of Sir Socrates. The fallen knight, still on his knees, had not time to bring himself to his feed. Attempting to raise his shield, he could not and let out a low yelp, like a wounded wolf hound. Pain revealed his left arm was broken.

“Your shield Faith cannot protect you now, your grace!” the muffled voice Sir FH proclaimed triumphantly from behind his helmet’s visor. “Your grace would have done well to not put confidence in her, for like your lady by the same name, she posseses no trustworthiness!”

“She was trustworthy to save from your lance, your grace,” was Sir Socrates’ reply, “and truth shall protect me now!” He withdrew his sword from it’s scabbard, holding it firmly in his right hand.

“Victory is mine,” the standing knight affirmed, raising his sword with both hands and threatening to bring down the final blow. “Yield, I pray ye! Admit my Love is the greatest of the princesses in Her Majesty’s court and I shall spare thy life!”

“Nay, your grace, death is more becoming than speaking such slander.”

The blade descended with great speed toward it’s mark–the neck of the fallen knight. Yet, Sir Socrates’ blade was more quick and true. Meeting the attack with a tremendous clash, the broadsword released itself from the grasp of Sir FH. Its flight ended with the tip piercing the earth, several paces out of reach of the unarmed foe.

Peering up at his stunned opponent with a look of godly determination, Sir Socrates remarked, “Your grace would have done well to remember that Truth is a sword best grasped firmly.”

http://www.officialticketcenter.com/Images/products/Category_text/medi1.gif

For one to have the sword of Truth one must first seek it, a lonely task none can do for he who desires to wield it. There’s Truth yet to be found where I’ve pointed ye. Seek.Then FH can continue.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

“You know what this means, your grace?” asked Sir FH.

“What?” replied Sir Socrates.

“We’ll just have to settle this dispute as real champions.”

“You mean . . . ?”

“Yay, we’ll continue this debate over two large stouts!”

“I thought you’d never ask, your grace!” said Sir Socrates, throwing his sword to the earth.

The two laughed as Sir FH helped Sir Socrates to his feet. They waved farewell to the fair maidens and continued laughing all the way to the pub.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

In searching for information relative to trust, I encountered this statement that bears heavily on our discussion.

Good words of advice, those!

These similar words i committed to memory many years ago:

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

(Proverbs 3:5-6)

The Lord our God is certainly worth more trust than i have ever given Him. Hope in Him is more sure than hope in any other, i have found.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates:
What a way! what a way! to summarize this discussion. I hope I can find you on all the discussion threads. Have you written any books?

By the way, Peter Kreeft in his Catechism quotes an old Chinesse proverb. It goes something like this:

Fact, Faith and Feelings are walking on a precarious cliff. As long as Faith and Feelings keep their eyes on Fact no one falls. When either Faith or Feelings take their eyes off of Fact they both (Faith and Feeling) fall; but Fact never falls.

I knew some Fundamentalist Baptists when i was stationed in the Army in Italy for a couple of years two decades ago. They were good people who spoke a lot about how salvation was a gift one did not have to work to earn, but lived as though it actually was. It seemed a strange dichotomy to me. Yet it added authenticity to their lives. I mean, believing their good acts had nothing to do with getting them into heaven, they still did good just the same, saying it was out of love for God and not hope of rewards from Him.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates:
Thank you for the recommendation regarding the Eucharist. A short note: I was a devout Baptist and studied the Catholic faith. I came to the conclusion that, in fact, it is the full Christian faith. But I loved my Baptist home and so I decided I would be a secret Catholic. A problem happened: I started going to Mass regularly and could not keep "it"quite.

I so wish my dear Baptist friends, who dearly love Jesus, could know the joy the comfort of the Mass.

The reason for this note:
How about starting a blogg entitled Authority, What is it? How do we determine what or who is Authority? How reliable is it? What is its opposite? Can we be our own authority? and in what matters? etc etc etc And do the Marlins have any chance in hell of making the play-offs in 2009?

Thanks for all the undeserved flattery.



I have experience with website design, that being part of my current job description. I suppose one day i’d like to create a site devoted to all the wise and witty words of Socrates, only a few of which i’ve quoted in this discussion.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Though i might have given an impression of wanting to win some kind of debate, i’m really here just for the fun of learning something. I wholeheartedly agree with Socrates, who said he stove to be a true philosopher (or lover of Wisdom), and was not into partisan politics nor partisan religion:

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this—that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.
(Phaedo)

Having such an attitude relieves much stress in conversations like these, for i care not a whip if someone proves me wrong (which has occurred many a time in this conversation). My only concern is to modify my ideas to make them more like the Truth Himself.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What i’m proposing is that if anyone would like to do the same–care not that his ideas might be wrong as long as he gets closer to the truth in the end–i’d be interested in taking this trek with him. It is my sincere hope that together we might discover a clearer understanding of the greatest of the Christian virtues we call Faith, Hope and Love.

If no one takes me up on the offer, i’ll feel no resentment and only gratitude for coming with me thus far in my journey.

 

[utunumsint]

I’m somewhat of a visual learner. When i’m trying to comprehend (or at least apprehend) a new idea, i paint a picture in my mind that represents that idea, and then step back and consider it’s reasonableness and beauty.

The picture i now see looks something like this one.

http://www.hahnalei.net/graylight/A...Avta_Foundation_for_Primes_files/image006.jpg

Where:

U = My thoughts
B = Trust
C = Faith in God
A = Hope in God

At the moment, it appears to me that nearly all Faith in God (C) has some degree of trust (as represented by the dark green). Not 100% of Faith has her mother Trust’s trait, but a good majority of it, i think. Yet, as we discussed earlier, **not all **who hope in God actually do trust Him, (though perhaps all genuine Catholic Hope might require some degree of trust in Him). This might be the case where a person has an irrational hope, or even a reasonable but misguided hope, that God will do something that He has no intention of doing. Hence, Hope in God (A) is divided into hope that does not trust Him (represented by the color white) and hope that always trusts Him (indicated by the color yellow).

Agreed. Hope is often spoken about in the Catechism, and in the Bible as synonymous with the desires of the heart. The heart being that place of decision where one mysteriously chooses between Good and Evil. If we hope in God for the wrong things, or if our hope is based less on the love of God, and more on the love of what God provides, then one has missed the boat that Faith Hope and Love are, and the direction in which these theological virtues tend: e.g. the beatitutdes where it is said that the lovers of truth and justice will be satisfied and filled, and where the pure of heart shall see God. So hope, like love must be purified of all that does not tend towards God, but places God as a stepping stone for some other object of Hope (e.g. “God, please let me win the lottery so I can truly be happy” is to use God for some other end.)

An example might be a person who prays that she will win the lottery, promising God that she will give half of the earnings to Catholic Charities. Now, this woman might have complete faith in the knowledge that God answers prayer (C, dark green) but only hopes that He will answer the prayer Yes, instead of No (A, white). She has no certainty that God will grant her request, but she hopes that He will work such a miracle for her. One can pray with trust that God will always answer, and also hope (but have no certainty nor trust) that the answer will indeed be yes.

This lack of trust is based is not only a failure in hope, but is downright sinful, although from our perspective, understandable. One can look at the story of Caleb, who was sent to scout out the promised land. He was the only one who believed that God would provide them with the means of conquering this dangerous land filled with Giants. All the other scouts let their fear, and lack of trust blind them to all God had done for them in the past. They no longer remembered his acts of power.

This certainly appears to be what St. John is telling us when he writes:

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

(1 John 5)

Since it is true that God gives us whatever we ask for that is His will for us, it stands to reason that God does not give us whatever is not His will for us to have. There are many things for which i hope and pray that, looking back on it, i’m glad God did not give me.

Agreed.

If you are willing FH, David, Hamlet, or anyone else, please let me know what you think of this idea.

These are good ideas. In many ways, faith, hope, and love blend into one another, and each prope one another up, so long as our intentions and the object of our hope and faith, and love remain pure. That purity is required and involves the four cardinal virture of purdence, justice, fortitude, and temperance, both actively sought out by man, and perfected in man by God and sanctifying grace.

God bless,
Ut

 

[fhansen]

I knew some Fundamentalist Baptists when i was stationed in the Army in Italy for a couple of years two decades ago. They were good people who spoke a lot about how salvation was a gift one did not have to work to earn, but lived as though it actually was. It seemed a strange dichotomy to me. Yet it added authenticity to their lives. I mean, believing their good acts had nothing to do with getting them into heaven, they still did good just the same, saying it was out of love for God and not hope of rewards from Him.

Right then. Back again, feeling quite refreshed and amicable again, thank you. Where were we? Thought I’d start with this.

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. St Basil

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…
These are good ideas. In many ways, faith, hope, and love blend into one another, and each prope one another up, so long as our intentions and the object of our hope and faith, and love remain pure. That purity is required and involves the four cardinal virture of purdence, justice, fortitude, and temperance, both actively sought out by man, and perfected in man by God and sanctifying grace.

God bless,
Ut

Hey, Ut. Long time no read! Good to hear from you again. These are good ideas, but i don’t think i deserve any credit from them. I’m sure i heard them from someone else, or perhaps received them from God (though why He’d show me any wisdom i don’t deserve beats me).

Hope you stick around to add to the discussion.