Hope

[Socrates4Jesus]

Right then. Back again, feeling quite refreshed and amicable again, thank you. Where were we? Thought I’d start with this.

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. St Basil

Excellent thoughts from the saint of my favorite spice!


Returning to the three sister virtues (for i suspect they are the daughters of God Himself and perhaps the mother of Wisdom, who is quoted in Proverbs) i’m thinking it might be helpful to try this approach:

Let’s ask ourselves three questions:

• What is the opposite of all Faith?* What is the opposite of all Hope?* What is the opposite of all Love?

My guess is that the answers are doubt, despair and hatred. What do you think?

 

[utunumsint]

Excellent thoughts from the saint of my favorite spice!


Returning to the three sister virtues (for i suspect they are the daughters of God Himself and perhaps the mother of Wisdom, who is quoted in Proverbs) i’m thinking it might be helpful to try this approach:

Let’s ask ourselves three questions:

• What is the opposite of all Faith?* What is the opposite of all Hope?* What is the opposite of all Love?

My guess is that the answers are doubt, despair and hatred. What do you think?

Good to see you posting again as well.

Maybe indifference instead of hatred for love? One can experience hatred because one’s love is threatened, in which case the hatred is a protective act, motivated towards protecting the true object of our love, or to avenge the loss of the object of our love.

Indifference doesn’t care either way.

God bless,
Ut

 

[fhansen]

Excellent thoughts from the saint of my favorite spice!


Returning to the three sister virtues (for i suspect they are the daughters of God Himself and perhaps the mother of Wisdom, who is quoted in Proverbs) i’m thinking it might be helpful to try this approach:

Let’s ask ourselves three questions:

• What is the opposite of all Faith?* What is the opposite of all Hope?* What is the opposite of all Love?

I think you’re good on Faith and Hope but with Love it’s not so clear to me. Hatred may be right. In scripture St John tells us “God is Love” and elsewhere scripture says “They hated me without reason”, referring to peoples attitude towards God-so hatred can certainly be considered a rejection of or opposed to love. Sin is also considered to be opposite from love. A few thoughts.

My guess is that the answers are doubt, despair and hatred. What do you think?

 

[utunumsint]

The Catechism has this:

One can sin against God’s love in various ways:

**indifference **neglects or refuses to reflect on divine charity; it fails to consider its prevenient goodness and denies its power.

**ingratitude **fails or refuses to acknowledge divine charity and to return him love for love.

lukewarmness is hesitation or negligence in responding to divine love; it can imply refusal to give oneself over to the prompting of charity.

**acedia **or spiritual sloth goes so far as to refuse the joy that comes from God and to be repelled by divine goodness.

**hatred of God comes from pride. **It is contrary to love of God, whose goodness it denies, and whom it presumes to curse as the one who forbids sins and inflicts punishments.

God bless,
Ut

 

[fhansen]

Excellent thoughts from the saint of my favorite spice!


Returning to the three sister virtues (for i suspect they are the daughters of God Himself and perhaps the mother of Wisdom, who is quoted in Proverbs) i’m thinking it might be helpful to try this approach:

Let’s ask ourselves three questions:

• What is the opposite of all Faith?* What is the opposite of all Hope?* What is the opposite of all Love?

My guess is that the answers are doubt, despair and hatred. What do you think?

Oops!

I think you’re good on Faith and Hope but with Love it’s not so clear to me. Hatred may be right. In scripture St John tells us “God is Love” and elsewhere scripture says “They hated me without reason”, referring to peoples attitude towards God-so hatred can certainly be considered a rejection of or opposed to love. Sin is also considered to be opposite from love. A few thoughts.

 

[davidv]

Good to see you posting again as well.

Maybe indifference instead of hatred for love? One can experience hatred because one’s love is threatened, in which case the hatred is a protective act, motivated towards protecting the true object of our love, or to avenge the loss of the object of our love.

Indifference doesn’t care either way.

God bless,
Ut

I agree with this thinking.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Good to see you posting again as well.

Maybe indifference instead of hatred for love? One can experience hatred because one’s love is threatened, in which case the hatred is a protective act, motivated towards protecting the true object of our love, or to avenge the loss of the object of our love.

Indifference doesn’t care either way.

God bless,
Ut

Hmmm. I would describe what you are calling hatred as righteous indignation, in other words, a justified anger. Still, if hatred is not the antithesis of love then what is it? and what is the opposite of hatred if not love?

My thinking is that indifference is not the opposite of love, rather it is the absence of it. Moreover, it is the absence of hatred, as well. I mean, isn’t apathy the midpoint between the two extremes of hatred and love?

Hatred <------------ Apathy ------------> Love

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Oops!

I think you’re good on Faith and Hope but with Love it’s not so clear to me. Hatred may be right. In scripture St John tells us “God is Love” and elsewhere scripture says “They hated me without reason”, referring to peoples attitude towards God-so hatred can certainly be considered a rejection of or opposed to love. Sin is also considered to be opposite from love. A few thoughts.

Good thoughts, those!



Reminds me of the advice of my good friend St. John:

If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
(1 John 4)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I agree with this thinking.

I believe i might be convinced of this if someone could demonstrate that indifference or apathy is really a kind of hatred. At the moment, i’m still leaning toward thinking of apathy as a lack of emotion (caring neither enough to hate nor love). Ancient Stohic philosophers were often accused of commiting this sin.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

While i’m still considering the nature of love, i think we are in agreement that the opposite of Faith is doubt and the antithesis of Hope is Despair. Next questions:

• Is doubt a lack of trust?* Is despair a kind of pain?

 

[utunumsint]

Hmmm. I would describe what you are calling hatred as righteous indignation, in other words, a justified anger. Still, if hatred is not the antithesis of love then what is it? and what is the opposite of hatred if not love?

My thinking is that indifference is not the opposite of love, rather it is the absence of it. Moreover, it is the absence of hatred, as well. I mean, isn’t apathy the midpoint between the two extremes of hatred and love?

Hatred <------------ Apathy ------------> Love

I think hatred never exists in and of itself, but is inspired by some other love…or the frustration of some other love. Satan wants what God has, namely beatitude, but can never get without submitting to God, which his pride and love of self can’t tolerate. This generates hatred, because satan can never atain beatitude.

Uggg… Time to put the kids to bed.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think hatred never exists in and of itself, but is inspired by some other love…or the frustration of some other love. Satan wants what God has, namely beatitude, but can never get without submitting to God, which his pride and love of self can’t tolerate. This generates hatred, because satan can never atain beatitude.

Uggg… Time to put the kids to bed.

God bless,
Ut

Treasure the bedtimes. Before long you’ll be going to bed before your kids get home!



Then . . .

apathy = hatred <----------------> love

Where apathy, revenge, envy, and the like are all forms of hatred, which is a lack of love. Is this what you mean?

 

[fhansen]

While i’m still considering the nature of love, i think we are in agreement that the opposite of Faith is doubt and the antithesis of Hope is Despair. Next questions:

• Is doubt a lack of trust?* Is despair a kind of pain?

I’d say doubt is a lack of belief which can exist without despair while despair means one lacks both belief and trust.

So even though we’ve agreed that some trust may in some way inherently reside in faith, I’d still maintain that faith leans almost exclusively towards having and believing in knowledge; an assent of the intellect and will, with the help of grace but not without our cooperation, to truths revealed. And hope is much more powerfully imbued with trust and confidence. When you say:

Yet, as we discussed earlier, **not all **who hope in God actually do trust Him, (though perhaps all genuine Catholic Hope might require some degree of trust in Him). This might be the case where a person has an irrational hope, or even a reasonable but misguided hope, that God will do something that He has no intention of doing. Hence, Hope in God (A) is divided into hope that does not trust Him (represented by the color white) and hope that always trusts Him (indicated by the color yellow).
.

I think you’re still relying too heavily on dictionary or common usage rather than the usage of the Church. IOW you’re placing too much trust in Faith.
Anyway, the statement above hits me as contrary to much of what I’ve found to be Catholic teaching on the subject. It’s actually possible for one to have faith without placing ones trust in God whereas all who have the virtue of hope must ipso facto **trust in Him. I can believe that God exists and that the resurrection is true without placing my trust in those things for my salvation. (I can even, alternatively, say that I trust that they are true without placing my trust in them). OTOH, for a Christian with the virtue of faith, as all Christians would have, it would hardly make any sense for that trust to be lacking, so the two-belief in revealed truths and trust in those truths for myself- go practically hand in hand, as davidv alluded to. Here’re a couple of excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia on faith:

**Divine faith, then, is that form of knowledge which is derived from Divine authority, and which consequently begets absolute certitude in the mind of the recipient.

d) That such Divine faith is necessary, follows from the fact of Divine revelation. For revelation means that the Supreme Truth has spoken to man and revealed to him truths which are not in themselves evident to the human mind. We must, then, either reject revelation altogether, or accept it by faith; that is, we must submit our intellect to truths which we cannot understand, but which come to us on Divine authority.

**

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’d say doubt is a lack of belief which can exist without despair while despair means one lacks both belief and trust.

So even though we’ve agreed that some trust may in some way inherently reside in faith, I’d still maintain that faith leans almost exclusively towards having and believing in knowledge; an assent of the intellect and will, with the help of grace but not without our cooperation, to truths revealed. And hope is much more powerfully imbued with trust and confidence. When you say:

I think you’re still relying too heavily on dictionary or common usage rather than the usage of the Church. IOW you’re placing too much trust in Faith.

…

It’s likely to be a busy day, but i’ll check in when i’m able.

Perhaps you are right. Still, i do not think this is a trivial matter, for St. Paul tells us:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

(Ephesians 2)

So, it appears that grace is what God offers you or i to save us from ourselves (and perhaps from hell) but Faith is the means by which you or i receive this grace. You or i would do well, then, to determine for ourselves whether or not trust in God is required to receive His grace and be saved from the consequences of not receiving such a gift.

Do you agree?

 

[utunumsint]

Treasure the bedtimes. Before long you’ll be going to bed before your kids get home!



Then . . .

apathy = hatred <----------------> love

Where apathy, revenge, envy, and the like are all forms of hatred, which is a lack of love. Is this what you mean?

I think so. IMO every sin implies puting something ahead of the love of God and always violates the first commandment. When the Lord says blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God, he means blessed are they who have a properly ordered love that conforms with the ten commandments placing the love of God first in all things. When the love of God is violated, something inferior must take its place. The inferior cannot satisfy leading to unhappiness and hatred for life/God. They end up hating God because he denies them the fruit from the tree of life because they wanted this fruit apart from God, because of pride and self love.

So I guess my only objection to having hatred as the polar opposite of love is that hatred, envy, jealousy, pride, sloth, are more products of disordered loves. But I can live with your defenition.

God bless,
Ut

 

[fhansen]

It’s likely to be a busy day, but i’ll check in when i’m able.

Perhaps you are right. Still, i do not think this is a trivial matter, for St. Paul tells us:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

(Ephesians 2)

So, it appears that grace is what God offers you or i to save us from ourselves (and perhaps from hell) but Faith is the means by which you or i receive this grace. You or i would do well, then, to determine for ourselves whether or not trust in God is required to receive His grace and be saved from the consequences of not receiving such a gift.

Do you agree?

For now I’ll say this. The gift comes first. Neither faith nor hope nor works merit us salvation-it’s a free gift of grace. However, God won’t save us without our consent and cooperation, demanding that our wills be involved in the process-after all they’re the problem to begin with. According to the Church, which produced and interprets Scripture, several dispositions are required in order to be justified in the eyes of God-faith, hope, and love being major ones, faith generally being the starting point for adults.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think so. IMO every sin implies putting something ahead of the love of God and always violates the first commandment. When the Lord says blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God, he means blessed are they who have a properly ordered love that conforms with the ten commandments placing the love of God first in all things. When the love of God is violated, something inferior must take its place. The inferior cannot satisfy leading to unhappiness and hatred for life/God. They end up hating God because he denies them the fruit from the tree of life because they wanted this fruit apart from God, because of pride and self love.

So I guess my only objection to having hatred as the polar opposite of love is that hatred, envy, jealousy, pride, sloth, are more products of disordered loves. But I can live with your definition.

God bless,
Ut

Yes, i think so, too. I mean, if a child were asked what the opposite of love is, she’d likely say hate. What any child understands, you and i surely do. However, what actually is hatred is a deeper question.

I find this passage intriguing:

He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
(Proverbs 13)

It seems to me that to be indifferent about the development of the character of one’s own son is a kind of hatred. Thus, i believe i see your point about it being the antithesis of Love. I suppose that if a rose by any other name still smells like a rose, then hatred by any other names still stinks!



If by “disordered love” you mean a misplaced love or a love of sin taking precedence over a love of Him, that makes sense to me, too.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

For now I’ll say this. The gift comes first. Neither faith nor hope nor works merit us salvation-it’s a free gift of grace. However, God won’t save us without our consent and cooperation, demanding that our wills be involved in the process-after all they’re the problem to begin with. According to the Church, which produced and interprets Scripture, several dispositions are required in order to be justified in the eyes of God-faith, hope, and love being major ones, faith generally being the starting point for adults.

Perhaps the Church is correct. St. Peter certainly appears to agree that genuine Faith in God is impossible without real repentance:

“God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.”
(Acts 5)

as does St. Paul:

“I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.”
(Acts 20)

It’s difficult for me to imagine a person who has truly turned away from a life devoted to sin and turned to a life devoted to Him to not have Faith, Hope and Love increase in her life over time. But i want to avoid the pitfall of getting too far ahead of myself by introducing more terms to define, such as grace, salvation, repentance, et. al.

So, getting back to Faith and Hope, if i were to say to you, “FH, i believe in you!” how would you interpret the meaning of my words? Would you think that i was saying i know that you exist, or would you think i was saying that i completely trust you in some regard?

 

[fhansen]

Perhaps the Church is correct. St. Peter certainly appears to agree that genuine Faith in God is impossible without real repentance:

“God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.”
(Acts 5)

as does St. Paul:

“I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.”
(Acts 20)

It’s difficult for me to imagine a person who has truly turned away from a life devoted to sin and turned to a life devoted to Him to not have Faith, Hope and Love increase in her life over time. But i want to avoid the pitfall of getting too far ahead of myself by introducing more terms to define, such as grace, salvation, repentance, et. al.

So, getting back to Faith, if i were to say to you, “FH, i believe in you!” how would you interpret the meaning of my words? Would you think that i was saying i know that you exist, or would you think i was saying that i completely trust you in some regard?

Both would be implied but the main emphasis would be on trust. In terms of God, however, merely believing in His existence is a very big first step.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Both would be implied but the main emphasis would be on trust. In terms of God, however, merely believing in His existence is a very big first step.

I cannot remember a time when i never did believe in His existence, so i would not know what that is like. Not that i have anything to brag about, for to my shame, there has been many a time when i’ve failed to believe in Him.

What if i were to visit your vineyard, shake your hand, and say, “FH, i don’t believe in you.” I would think that you would have good reason to suspect me insane if i only meant that i doubted your existence after just having shook your hand.

Consider this example as an illustration of the point i am trying to make:

Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
(John 14)

When Jesus says, “believe also in me” i’d think him deranged if he was saying that they doubted His existence after they had spent every day with Him for the past three years. No, in this case, Jesus is using the words to challenge them to place their trust in Him, don’t you think?

But let’s say i said to you, “FH, i have complete faith in you!” Would you then think i was saying i trusted you, or that i merely believed you exist?