Hope

[davidv]

{snip}

Wow. I cannot belive Wisdom just told me that!

Believe it!

For James records:

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity.James 3:17

 

[Hamlet123]

http://www.tblc.org/shpl/questionMark.gif

Does anyone have a reason why Wisdom is not a virtue? or does someone think she is a virtue, but of a different kind than Love?

Maybe you can help us help you by restating your questions as such:
Does anyone have a reason why (do not use the word - “Wisdom” put in this place the definition of Wisdom) is not a (put here, again, the definition * of virtue - not the word “virtue”?

Just my thougt.*

 

[Sister_G]

Hamlet and david, thanks for rejoining us! I think if you refer to the points around pages 34 to present you will see the progression.
In numbers 517 and 533 some acceptable definitions were given and we have surmised that indeed wisdom is a virtue of the intellect as stated by St Thomas Aquinas. Other discussion bears review, as we have come a long way!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

In part I would call this an epiphany moment. A revelation that no virtue of God is greater than any other, yet with Love binding them all together.
…

Yes, i’d be a fool to think this idea was my own! I’m sure i got it from that same still small voice who spoke to Elijah, or perhaps from someone long forgotten who once passed this idea on to me.

I’m reminded of something else someone told me, a Fundamentalist Baptist who was a major in the US Army, when i asked him how a loving God could send someone to hell. His reply was, “God is a loving God, but He is also a just God.”

It seems to me he is correct. And how i’d love to hear St. Paul, or perhaps St. Peter, finish this verse:
And now these three virtues remain–wisdom, justice and love. But the greatest of these is . . .
Perhaps someone will ask the Pope to answer the question. I suspect his answer would be “none of these, for they are all equally great.” Not that i’m suggesting we throw Lady Justice into the ring, with a sword in one hand, a scale in the other, and a blindfold covering her eyes! This, i think, we’d be wise to leave as a topic of discussion for another day.

Now, to say that Love binds Wisdom and Justice together, might be correct. Love certainly binds all of the moral virtues together, in that they are all examples of her.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

(1 Corinthians 13)
Yet, i do not think Wisdom is an example of Love any more than Justice is. Each is a different category of virtue in her own right. It may be more accurate to say Love effects or influences or balances out both Wisdom and Justice. It would also be correct to say, i believe, that Wisdom effects, or influences, or balances out Love and Justice. So too, in my opinion, does Justice effect, or influence or balance out both Wisdom and Love.

As the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in perfect balance and in complete cooperation with one another in the same God, so are Wisdom, Justice and Love in perfect balance and in complete cooperation with one another in the same God. Should this trinity of virtues not be in perfect balance and in complete cooperation with one another in you or i?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I have one thought however regarding Love that was not so much mentioned, and I never see talked about enough, and that is true love is an act of the will. … So what I am saying is, for example, as an act of the will, you chose out of LOVE to go to the store for your wife - a wise decision by all accounts, but one based on an act of love.

Good point, Sister!



To have compassion for someone and yet fail to act in love for the good of that person is unloving. It is equally true that to have wisdom enough to know what the right thing is to do, and yet fail to do it is unwise. So too, to understand what is just and yet fail to do the just thing, is an injustice.

My wife is a middle school teacher in a public school who the other teachers call the Brat Whisperer. Like the Dog Whisperer of TV fame who is able to get the most unruly canine to behave, she is able to get the students with the worst reputations to behave, without ever having to raise her voice.

She has only one moral rule she expects all of them to abide by: “Do the right thing.” The right thing, i now understand, is that which is loving and wise and just.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I hafta love this line. Whatever relationship Wisdom & Love may have, and whatever else Love may be, Love is a power, the awesome power that compelled and enabled both Jesus and Fr. Maximilian Kolbe to do what they did.

I don’t know if our reasoning here has been so perfect in its theological soundness but I learned a lot in any case and have enjoyed the discussion a great deal thus far. I’ve also appreciated the open and friendly attitude of all participants. I’m sure at least some others would agree if I added, nice thread, Soc!

It would have ended as a thread if you and others had thrown up their arms in a unified shrug and said in unison, “Who can know?”



Thanks for enduring the mental exercise with me. I’m much the better for it!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Believe it!

For James records:
Quote:
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity.

James 3:17
​

That he does, David! Good verse, that!



Wisdom from above, rather than our own from below. It’s the kind of Wisdom, i’ve learned from reading Plato’s dialogs, that Socrates himself sought. He taught that there was one God above all the Pantheon of Greek dieties, who had perfect possession of Wisdom. Teaching this truth was one reason why he was sentenced to death, and on the eve of his death he told his disciples of his sincere hope that he’d meet this God of Wisdom for whom he had lived his life.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Maybe you can help us help you by restating your questions as such:
Does anyone have a reason why (do not use the word - “Wisdom” put in this place the definition of Wisdom) is not a (put here, again, the definition * of virtue - not the word “virtue”?

Just my thougt.*

Good to have you back, Hamlet!

Well, the definition the CCC gives us of a virtue is
1833 Virtue is a habitual and firm disposition to do good.

Intuitively, at least, i’m inclined to say that Wisdom fits this perfectly, as does Love.

Yet, you are wise to suggest that we repeat, or perhaps reword, the definition of Wisdom. I’d say that before we go we should repeat or reword the definitions of Faith, Hope and Love, as well, if only to remind ourselves of how far we’ve gone and where we will go after we leave here.

I’d like to suggest a simpler definition of each that is not as exact but is more memorable:

1. 
   *]Faith is the supernatural gift and virtue of reasoning that God is trustworthy and to act on that rational trust in God, by for example taking some risk
   *]Hope is the supernatural gift and virtue of feeling a strong expectation that God will cause some good to occur, and to allow that emotional trust to motivate one to endure.
   *]Love is the supernatural gift and virtue of being able to feel compassion for anyone and to act unselfishly and in a loving way for the good of that person.
   *]Wisdom is the supernatural gift and virtue of being able to rationally discern the truth about what is morally right and morally wrong, and then to do what one discerns it true.

 

[Hamlet123]

And what you say about the intimacy of Wisdom and Love is also true for this reason: It is impossible to be wise and fail to love. After all, the Wisdom God gives tells you or i how to love, and to not act according to that truth is unwise. Just as Faith without deeds is dead, so too Wisdom without deeds is not Wisdom.

:
Paul should have prefaced Romans and Galations with this and St. James would have appreciated this as an addition.

 

[Hamlet123]

In my mind the discovery that Wisdom is a cause of Love is proof enough that the former is greater than the latter.

However, if you FH, or you Sister, or you Hamlet, or you David are still unconvinced, then perhaps you will be more inclined to see the wisdom of Wisdom’s supremacy if she were to show us that she is the perfecter of Love.

If you are willing to listen, i’d like to provide an example of how Wisdom perfects Love. Then you may be the judge of whether it is true.

Please, go on

 

[Sister_G]

Yestersay, in the Office of Readings (The Divine Office/ aka Litugy of the Hours), there was a beautiful reading from St Gregory of Nazianzen. I hope you enjoy this first paragraph as much as I did…
“Recognize to whom you owe the fact that you exist, that you breathe, that you understand, that you ae wise, and, above all, that you know God and hope for the kingdom of heaven and the vision of glory, now darkly as in a mirror but then with greater fullness and purity. You have been made a son fo God, coheir with Christ. (…) His gifts are not deficient in any way, because he wanted to give equality of blessing to equality of worth, to show the abundance of his generosity.”
God is a generous giver! Everything He gives us however, He hopes that it will be willingly returned to Him out of love! So with faith we shall move forward from grace to grace!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Please, go on

Well, i did, Hamlet:

Post 567

But, then i had a change of heart and mind:

Post 575

I’m now convinced that Wisdom, Justice and Love are virtues of equal greatness in God, and should be so in you and i, too:

Post 581

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yestersay, in the Office of Readings (The Divine Office/ aka Litugy of the Hours), there was a beautiful reading from St Gregory of Nazianzen. I hope you enjoy this first paragraph as much as I did…
“Recognize to whom you owe the fact that you exist, that you breathe, that you understand, that you ae wise, and, above all, that you know God and hope for the kingdom of heaven and the vision of glory, now darkly as in a mirror but then with greater fullness and purity. You have been made a son fo God, coheir with Christ. (…) His gifts are not deficient in any way, because he wanted to give equality of blessing to equality of worth, to show the abundance of his generosity.”
God is a generous giver! Everything He gives us however, He hopes that it will be willingly returned to Him out of love! So with faith we shall move forward from grace to grace!

Yes, and He is a merciful giver, too. I don’t think i’ve ever truly deserved any good thing He has given to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Previously on “Socrates and Virtue War” . . .

SOCRATES: What are you doing, my lover?

WISDOM (Pulling up Socrates loins and tucking them firmly into his belt): Preparing you for the contest to come.

SOC (embarrassed): What contest do you have in mind? and shouldn’t we wait until we’re alone? Here on the battlefield in front of all these spectators is hardly the . . .

WIS: (Pulls her sword quickly from its sheath and places it firmly in Socrates’ hand). You will be wise to take this, and not drop it.

SOC: (Startled and confuse). You can’t mean that i . . .

WIS: Yes, that’s exactly what i mean. You know i’d never lie to you.

SOC: But . . .

WIS: Nor would i steer you wrong. (She puts a visorless helmet on Socrates’ head.) Love awaits you, Socrates. I suggest you strike first and true.

SOC: (Stumbles, somewhat bewildered, toward his beautifully dangerous Amazon foe.)

WIS: Don’t forget all i’ve taught you, dear foolish Soc. It just might save your life this day!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

WISDOM (standing close enough to embrace Socrates from behind and whispering softly in his right ear): What do you see, Socrates?

SOCRATES: See? I see the Amazon Warrior Love approaching me in all her glory, with flaming sword drawn, ready to kill me with kindness! (i.e., the end of my miserable existence.) That’s what i see!

WIS (still whispering in his ear): How does that make you feel, sweet Soc?

SOC: Well, for a brief moment, the feel of your warm breath caressing my ear made me almost forget that my knees are knocking, my heart is pounding, i’m breaking out in a cold sweat. There’s no doubt about it: i’m completely and utterly terrified!

WIS: Good.

SOC: Good? is that all you can say? Good? Here i am playing the fool for you (which does not reflect well on you, i might add) and all you can say is . . .

WIS: Why?

SOC: Why? What do you think others are going to think of you when i fail so miserably to defend you?

WIS: No. Why do you fear?

SOC: Well, look at her: She’s Virtue Love incarnate, approaching quickly and ready to smote me with a wrath that would rival God’s. The best for which i can hope is that she’ll show a little mercy and take my head clean off with the first stroke, isn’t it? She’s Love in the flesh, and God is Love, isn’t He? How ludicrous is that? For God’s sake! I might as well be taking up arms against Him! O why did i ever listen to you?

WIS: Socrates, Socrates, you are upset and worried about so many things. Only one thing is needed.

SOC: And what is that? (Please tell me it is to hand this sword in my hand to you and get behind you.)

WIS: Fear.

SOC: Fear? All i have to need is fear itself?

WIS (still whispering softly): Yes, my dearest Soc. It’s the beginning of me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

WISDOM: (speaking with more urgency, now): Listen to me Socrates. There’s not much time.

SOCRATES (turning to face Wisdom and turning his back on approaching Love): I’m all ears, not that it will do me any good.

WIS: When she draws close enough to strike she will ask you one question. Answer truthfully, or you will not live to see tomorrow.

SOC: I don’t suppose you know what she will ask, and how i should answer.

WIS: Yes, but i won’t tell you the answer. You must discover that yourself.

SOC: Quickly, then. What will she ask?

WIS: Do you love her?

SOC: Is that the question, or are you asking me?

WIS: Yes.

SOC: Do i love Love? Well, i suppose i love her about as much as those people who loved the one with the Chainsaw before he cut them in half! (You know, the ones in that Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie you warned me not to watch.) But, no. I really should love Love, shouldn’t i? I mean, if i say i don’t love her, i’m done for, aren’t i?

WIS: You should say the truth, Socrates.

LOVE: Socrates, turn and face me. I have something to ask you.

SOC (turns to see Love towering over him, smiling victoriously, with drawn sword and he is terrified).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

**And now for tonight’s episode:

Live to Die**

 

[Sister_G]

Awww! Come on Socrates! You cannot do that to us! Finish the story! PLEASE!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

OK, let’s start with a musical interlude to set the mood:

Virtue War Theme (“Are You Alive?”)

 

[fhansen]

I’d like to take the opportunity to relate something here which may have some sort of significance. I’m not an appliance repairman, have no particular aspirations to be, and rarely have the need to work on them. But during the course of this thread I’ve repaired, for myself, friends, or employees, two washing machines, two house furnaces, and installed a new dishwasher. I’m working on a water heater at the moment. I’m wondering if anyone else has noticed a connection between the need for major appliance repair while resolving major philosophical/theological questions. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt the thread but this could be revelatory. Anyway, I’ll withhold judgment until more data is available.