Hopefully philosophical question about the Fall

[JDaniel]

I still am quite struck by this forum’s ambivalence about sin. The sum of the responses so far seems to be:

“Bad is sometimes good, ultimately, in a way, sort of.”

It may seem that way, but, really, it’s not. We merely accept that we are imperfect. Try as hard as we can, we will never be perfect.

If one had a gun held to his head, moment to moment, the odds are that one would make prudent, judicious decisions so as not to anger the gun holder. In our imperfection, we sometimes forget that God is watching.

However, accompanied by real remorse, all or our sins can be forgiven.

The only way “Bad is sometimes good, ultimately, in a way, sort of” is that it fairly instantly makes us cognizant of God and that He just saw what we did! Interestingly, it does sort of keep us from going too far afield.

jd

 

[JDaniel]

Only expressing my opinion here and it is one which fully recognizes sin. Sin does not have to overwhelm a person’s thoughts. Recognizing sin for what it is I have chosen to look down a different path. If I were to constantly focus my attention down the path of sin then no time or energy would be spent following God’s path of light and truth. Even if I did not travel the sinful path, but only pondered it I would still be making no progress along God’s path of truth and light. Thus, I devote my energies to God’s path leaving the other path far back behind me.

As I see matters people are generally in one of 3 places in their walk with God.

1. Fear of God - do things right so He does not strike with the lightning bolts.
2. Doing right because it is right - a more comfortable spot.
3. Recognizing God’s love in life - here people realize they love God, but that love of God is only possible because God loves us first.

The concept of virtue is often not discussed, debated or pondered. Virtues are worthy of our time. Each year I pick one virtue to emphasize in life; 2008 - humility, 2009 kindness for example. My Year of Virtue starts on December 25th to emphasize why I am striving to be virtuous. By focusing on a virtue I have devoted time and energy to negating the effects of ‘The Fall’ and sin.

Much more could be typed, but I do dread long posts:dts:

The point being by seeking holiness (and we are all called to be holy saints) and by thinking about virtuous living I have not much time to ponder the other. In other words I am preparing my field for rain.

God bless

Hear, hear!

jd

 

[cpayne]

I still am quite struck by this forum’s ambivalence about sin. The sum of the responses so far seems to be:

“Bad is sometimes good, ultimately, in a way, sort of.”

No, not really. The fact that God can bring good out of bad does not change the character of the bad.

 

[valueperson]

Okay, so now we’re back to the relative simplicity of my original question: do you regret that Adam sinned?

By and large, the answer has been no.

The conflict I see is when people say that he should not have sinned, but they don’t regret that he did.

It’s as if Adam’s sin was somehow different from subsequent sin, that his sin was for the greater good. How was his sin different? Or if it wasn’t, if sin is sin, does that mean that other sins can also felix cuplae, bad but not regretable?

 

[JDaniel]

Okay, so now we’re back to the relative simplicity of my original question: do you regret that Adam sinned?

By and large, the answer has been no.

The conflict I see is when people say that he should not have sinned, but they don’t regret that he did.

It’s as if Adam’s sin was somehow different from subsequent sin, that his sin was for the greater good. How was his sin different? Or if it wasn’t, if sin is sin, does that mean that other sins can also felix cuplae, bad but not regretable?

Oh, how quickly we forget!

It brought about the sacrifice.

jd

 

[warpspeedpetey]

It’s as if Adam’s sin was somehow different from subsequent sin, that his sin was for the greater good

.

to sin is to offend G-d. if He chooses to use that sin for His greater glory, that is His perogative.

the qualities of sin and sinner are not im-portant in that light.

the questions you have may be better framed as why does G-d choose to do this or that.

How was his sin different? Or if it wasn’t, if sin is sin, does that mean that other sins can also felix cuplae, bad but not regretable?

its entirely in how G-d chooses to respond to the offense.

but again, i ask, what reaction did you expect from us?

 

[valueperson]

Oh, how quickly we forget!

It brought about the sacrifice.

jd

Thanks, I do remember. So what I’m hearing is that Adam’s sin, and ONLY his sin, is not regretable, for that reason. Which is fair enough.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Thanks, I do remember. So what I’m hearing is that Adam’s sin, and ONLY his sin, is not regretable, for that reason. Which is fair enough.

we, may have a particular feeling, but as G-d is the source of morality our personal feelings arent a basis for moral inferences about Catholicism or Christianity, we arent in charge.

 

[Detales]

I’m going to, in a sense, play Devil’s advocate here. What if the story of Adam and Eve refers symbolically to the dawn of the dual nature of awareness in the human platform. Thus it is a misinterpretation to regard it as a “fall” in the sense of a demotion. It recasts it as the begining of the struggle to find right relationship with God as a conscious act as distinct from simple instinctual awareness. It also casts therefore an entirely different and more inclusively benevolent reason for the redemption story. It sets the redemption into a more reasonable context harmonious with other very similar redemption stories that have existed for at least 5K years.* Many of the statements of Jesus are harmonius with this view if it is understood that “I” has a rather different meaning in some middle Eastern teachings than we understand in English. That view could reconcile the diversity of religious modes and reunite many world religions on a more fundamental footing. Everyone could then keep their favorite devotional forms and yet have a common understanding of why they have religon and stop having holy wars of any stripe. Then we could get on with the actual business of the “fall” and act in a unified manner instead of argue about what we think God wants. All that is extremely simplistically stated, but I think it fulfills the point of the thread.

*Of course that would wreak havok with all those of *any* stirpe who say "But *OURS* is the one true redemption story!"

 

[JDaniel]

I’m going to, in a sense, play Devil’s advocate here. What if the story of Adam and Eve refers symbolically to the dawn of the dual nature of awareness in the human platform. Thus it is a misinterpretation to regard it as a “fall” in the sense of a demotion. It recasts it as the begining of the struggle to find right relationship with God as a conscious act as distinct from simple instinctual awareness. It also casts therefore an entirely different and more inclusively benevolent reason for the redemption story. It sets the redemption into a more reasonable context harmonious with other very similar redemption stories that have existed for at least 5K years.* Many of the statements of Jesus are harmonius with this view if it is understood that “I” has a rather different meaning in some middle Eastern teachings than we understand in English. That view could reconcile the diversity of religious modes and reunite many world religions on a more fundamental footing. Everyone could then keep their favorite devotional forms and yet have a common understanding of why they have religon and stop having holy wars of any stripe. Then we could get on with the actual business of the “fall” and act in a unified manner instead of argue about what we think God wants. All that is extremely simplistically stated, but I think it fulfills the point of the thread.

*Of course that would wreak havok with all those of *any* stirpe who say "But *OURS* is the one true redemption story!"

Yes it would! One problem with your scenario is that the Fall is crucial to setting the scene, so to speak, for the Sacrifice. The Sacrifice is God’s most powerful example of His footprint, on earth, and His beyond-all-explanations Love for us.

jd

 

[Detales]

And there, jd, is the crack in your world. Will you step through it?