Hopeless Calvinists - on grace and free will

[hn160]

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that all these things are true, there is no reason why you should complain about your unbelief; for if you do not doubt that the Son of God died for you, you surely believe, because to believe is nothing else than to regard these facts as the sure and unquestionable truth.”
God says to you: “Behold, you have My Son. Listen to Him, and receive Him. If you do this, you are already sure about your faith and salvation.” “But I do not know,” you will say, “whether I am remaining in faith.” At all events, accept the present promise and the predestination, and do not inquire too curiously about the secret counsels of God. If you believe in the revealed God and accept His Word, He will gradually also reveal the hidden God; for “He who sees Me also sees the Father,” as John 14:9 says. He who rejects the Son also loses the unrevealed God along with the revealed God. But if you cling to the revealed God with a firm faith, so that your heart is so minded that you will not lose Christ even if you are deprived of everything, then you are most assuredly predestined, and you will understand the hidden God. Indeed, you understand Him even now if you acknowledge the Son and His will, namely, that He wants to reveal Himself to you, that He wants to be your Lord and your Savior. Therefore you are sure that God is also your Lord and Father.
Observe how pleasantly and kindly God delivers you from this horrible trial with which Satan besets people today in strange ways in order to make them doubtful and uncertain, and eventually even to alienate them from the Word. “For why should you hear the Gospel,” they say, “since everything depends on predestination?” In this way he robs us of the predestination guaranteed through the Son of God and the sacraments. He makes us uncertain where we are completely certain. And if he attacks timid consciences with this trial, they die in despair, as would almost have happened to me if Staupitz had not delivered me from the same trial when I was troubled. But if they are despisers, they become the worst Epicureans. Therefore we should rather impress these statements on our hearts, such as John 6:44: “No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him.” Through whom? Through Me. “He who sees Me also sees the Father” (cf. John 14:9). And God says to Moses: “You cannot see My face, for man shall not see Me and live” (Ex. 33:20). And we read (Acts 1:7): “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority. But go, and carry out what I command.” Likewise (Ecclus. 3:22): “Seek not the things that are too high for you, and search not into things above your ability; but the things that God has commanded you, think on them always, and in many of His works be not curious.” Listen to the incarnate Son, and predestination will present itself of its own accord.
Staupitz used to comfort me with these words: “Why do you torture yourself with these speculations? Look at the wounds of Christ and at the blood that was shed for you. From these predestination will shine. Consequently, one must listen to the Son of God, who was sent into the flesh and appeared to destroy the work of the devil (1 John 3:8) and to make you sure about predestination. And for this reason He says to you: ‘You are My sheep because you hear My voice’ (cf. John 10:27). ‘No one shall snatch you out of My hands’ ” (cf. v. 28).
Many who did not resist this trial in such a manner were hurled headlong into destruction. Consequently, the hearts of the godly should be kept carefully fortified. Thus a certain hermit in The Lives of the Fathers advises his hearers against speculations of this kind. He says: “If you see that someone has put his foot in heaven, pull him back. For this is how saintly neophytes are wont to think

 

[hn160]

Continued

about God apart from Christ. They are the ones who try to ascend into heaven and to place both feet there. But suddenly they are plunged into hell.” Therefore the godly should beware and be intent only on learning to cling to the Child and Son Jesus, who is your God and was made flesh for your sake. Acknowledge and hear Him; take pleasure in Him, and give thanks. If you have Him, then you also have the hidden God together with Him who has been revealed. And that is the only way, the truth, and the life (cf. John 14:6). Apart from it you will find nothing but destruction and death.
But He manifested himself in the flesh to snatch us from death, from the power of the devil. From this knowledge must come great joy and delight that God is unchangeable, that He works in accordance with unchangeable necessity, and that He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13) but keeps His promises. Accordingly, one is not free to have such thoughts or doubts about predestination; but they are ungodly, vicious, and devilish. Therefore when the devil assails you with them, you should only say: “I believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, about whom I have no doubt that He was made flesh, suffered, and died for me. Into His death I have been baptized.” This answer will make the trial disappear, and Satan will turn his back.
Thus on other occasions I have often mentioned the noteworthy example of a nun who underwent the same trial. For under the papacy there were also many godly persons who experienced these spiritual trials, which are truly hellish and thoughts of the damned. For there is no difference at all between one who doubts and one who is damned. Therefore whenever the nun felt that she was being assailed with the fiery darts of Satan (cf. Eph. 6:16), she would say nothing else than this: “I am a Christian.”
We must do the same thing. One must refrain from debates and say: “I am a Christian; that is, the Son of God was made flesh and was born; He has redeemed me and is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and He is my Savior.” Thus you must drive Satan away from you with as few words as possible and say: “Begone, Satan! (Matt. 4:10.) Do not put doubt in me. The Son of God came into this world to destroy your work (1 John 3:8) and to destroy doubt.” Then the trial ceases, and the heart returns to peace, quiet, and the love of God.
Otherwise doubt about some person’s intention is no sin. Thus Isaac doubts that he will live or have a pious host. About a man I can be in doubt. Indeed, I should be in doubt. For he is not my Savior, and it is written (Ps. 146:3): “Put not your trust in princes.” For man is a liar (Ps. 116:11) and deceitful. But one cannot deal doubtfully with God. For He neither wants nor is able to be changeable or a liar. But the highest form of worship He requires is your conviction that He is truthful. For this is why He has given you the strongest proofs of His trustworthiness and truth. He has given His Son into the flesh and into death, and He has instituted the sacraments, in order that you may know that He does not want to be deceitful, but that He wants to be truthful. Nor does He confirm this with spiritual proofs; He confirms it with tangible proofs. For I see the water, I see the bread and the wine, and I see the minister. All this is physical, and in these material forms He reveals Himself. If you must deal with men, you may be in doubt as to the extent to which you may believe a person and as to how others may be disposed toward you; but concerning God you must maintain with assurance and without any doubt that He is well disposed toward you on account of Christ and that you have been redeemed and sanctified through the precious blood of the Son of God. And in this way you will be sure of your predestination, since all the

 

[hn160]

Continued

prying and dangerous questions about GOD’S secret counsels have been removed—the questions to which Satan tries to drive us, just as he drove our first parents.
But how great would our first parent’s happiness have been if he had kept the Word of God carefully in sight and had eaten of all the other trees except the one from which he had been forbidden to eat! But he wanted to search out why God had forbidden him to enjoy the fruits from that one tree. In addition, there was Satan, the malicious teacher who increased and abetted this curiosity. Thus he was hurled headlong into sin and death.
Thus God reveals His will to us through Christ and the Gospel. But we loathe it and, in accordance with Adam’s example, take delight in the forbidden tree above all the others. This fault has been implanted in us by nature. When Paradise and heaven have been closed and the angel has been placed on guard there (cf. Gen. 3:24), we try in vain to enter. For Christ has truthfully said: “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18). Nevertheless, God, in His boundless goodness, has revealed Himself to us in order to satisfy our desire. He has shown us a visible image. “Behold, you have My Son; he who hears Him and is baptized is written in the book of life. This I reveal through My Son, whom you can touch with your hands and look at with your eyes.”
I have wanted to teach and transmit this in such a painstaking and accurate way because after my death many will publish my books and will prove from them errors of every kind and their own delusions. Among other things, however, I have written that everything is absolute and unavoidable; but at the same time I have added that one must look at the revealed God, as we sing in the hymn: Er heist Jesu Christ, der HERR Zebaoth, und ist kein ander Gott, “Jesus Christ is the Lord of hosts, and there is no other God”—and also in very many other places. But they will pass over all these places and take only those that deal with the hidden God. Accordingly, you who are listening to me now should remember that I have taught that one should not inquire into the predestination of the hidden God but should be satisfied with what is revealed through the calling and through the ministry of the Word. For then you can be sure about your faith and salvation and say: “I believe in the Son of God, who said (John 3:36): ‘He who believes in the Son has eternal life.’ ” Hence no condemnation or wrath rests on him, but he enjoys the good pleasure of God the Father. But I have publicly stated these same things elsewhere in my books, and now I am also teaching them by word of mouth. Therefore I am excused.
(From the American Edition of Luther’s Works 5:43-50; Luther’s Genesis Commentary, commenting on Genesis 29:9).

 

[choliks]

Interesting read, hn160. Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

Little did I know by then that they are actually Calvinists, one of the most dangerous things ever on earth.

This might be a little extreme. While I will agree with you about the inherent dangers of heresies found in Calvanism, there are many of our separated brethren who are very sincere in their faith and strive to lead a Christ filled life who have been influenced by Calvanism. Some Calvanists are better Christians than many Catholics.

Basically, as you may already know, Calvinists hate the idea that man has free will and can do something that’s not what God has planned.

I think it is more a matter of how they understand free will. They conceptualize it as being subjected to total depravity and irresistable grace, which limits the parameters of freedom. There is some basis for Truth in it though, because they believe that a “true Christian” will desire to follow the commandments of God, and they will freely will to do so.

They would say our “fate” is planned by God unconditionally and exclusively, that is, without using God’s foreknowledge on anything about His creation. As a result, they claim that those deadly sins and transgressions are both our real choice and God’s decree onto us.

I have never heard a Calvanist say anything about 'fate". They do speak of Election and Condemnation though. And the position can be supported scripturally that God did plan everything for us before the foundation of the world.

Take the Fall for example. We as Catholics (and even most Protestants) believe that Adam and Eve freely chose to eat the fruit. But my Calvinist friends say God must unconditionally decreed the Fall and there is no way human can fall away from it, while human rather than God is responsible for it.

I am not exactly sure what you are saying here. There is no way a human can fall away from it (the fall?). Even worse, they will say while they don’t understand, they nevertheless firmly trust a case can be made for God knowing in advance what the outcome of Adam and Eve’s choice.

it because they believe that’s what God says (for example, from Romans 9). They also know Bible talks about falling away of the faithful, resisting the Holy Spirit, etc.; nevertheless, they claim that it’s God’s will that they fall away, i.e. it’s God’s (one) will to let people hold against God’s (another) will.

Yes. they conceive of several levels of God’s will, his permissive will (where He allows evils such as the crucifixion) and His perfect will.

Rom 12:2
…the will of God — what is good and acceptable and perfect.

It's nonsense, right? I know, but they don't know. Therefore, for the sake of evangelization of truth, what's the best weapon we can use to attack this gravely heretical teaching? Any suggestions are welcome! Thank you all and God bless!

I think the best defense is to study and know the Catechism very well. Calvin wrote many volumes, and his Institutes are full of complex theological formulations. In order to be able to counter these, one must know the faith handed down to us from the Apostles very thoroughly.

 

[guanophore]

[reformationtheology.com/2009/04/grace_creates_a_truly_free_wil.php](http://www.reformationtheology.com/2009/04/grace_creates_a_truly_free_wil.php)

Augustine’s view of free will is how most Calvinists understand free will.

Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, 29

‘For we are now speaking of the desire for goodness. If they want to say that this begins from ourselves and is then perfected by God, let them see how they can answer the apostle when he says, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5)’

Well, only the parts the pick and choose. He also said that our hearts are restless until they rest in Him, affirming that the God created desire in man to seek and to find God is only wounded by original sin, not eliminated.

Acts 17:26-28
26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him — though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,
‘For we too are his offspring.’

 

[guanophore]

Continued
(From the American Edition of Luther’s Works 5:43-50; Luther’s Genesis Commentary, commenting on Genesis 29:9).

All this information is quite relevant to the discussion, of course, but the manner in which you are bringing it is against the forum rules.

"Do not paste entire articles from web sites into a post. If you wish to reference an article on the web, link to its web address, instead. "

 

[Christian_Unity]

Why do many Catholics and non-Calvinist Protestants like to pick on Calvinism? I say live and let live if the doctrines that seem to divide are not essential doctrines pertaining to the faith. How do we define essential doctrine; maybe through our shared historic creeds such as the Apostle’s Creed and Nicene Creed.

 

[guanophore]

Why do many Catholics and non-Calvinist Protestants like to pick on Calvinism? I say live and let live if the doctrines that seem to divide are not essential doctrines pertaining to the faith. How do we define essential doctrine; maybe through our shared historic creeds such as the Apostle’s Creed and Nicene Creed.

I don’t know any non-Catholics that “like to pick on Calvanists” but I don’t usually frequent such venues. Catholics have an obligation to speak out against heresy, a category which could well have been created for TULIP.

When it comes to people, I don’t think it is appropriate to “pick on” anyone, and I am all for the live and let live thing. Certainly apologetics can (and should) be done without rancor,in gentleness.

You ask a good question about how the essentials can be defined. For Catholics, the faith is One. It is a whole and entire seamless garment that cannot be torn into pieces at the whim of the recipient. We are bound to the One Faith that was handed down to us. Yes, that One Faith is reflected in the creeds, but one of the things that Calvin did, and people who follow his example continue to do today is to redefine the words of the creeds so that they no longer mean what they did when they were written by the Church. He went on to redefine baptism, eucharist, and a great many other doctrines that Catholics have received as “essential” to the faith.

 

[poptown]

reformationtheology.com/2009/04/grace_creates_a_truly_free_wil.php

Augustine’s view of free will is how most Calvinists understand free will.

I have talked to Calvinists personally a lot … and I have seen their Documents and Confessions … fundamentally they do not believe that God uses foreknowledge in decreeing our destiny, so our will has no role to play in our own destiny. That’s exactly what they believe. So if foreknowledge is not used, and God decrees all things by his own alone without considering human, how can human’s free will be involved?

“What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will?” (Augustine’s On Grace and Free Will)

“God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass … yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.” (Westminster Confession of Faith)

By the way, reformationtheology.com and monergism.com may not be completely evil, but they are at least very very biased on many issues. It’s like learning Catholicism on carm.org! I suggest you to look into the original document in full context. Thank you.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I have talked to Calvinists personally a lot … and I have seen their Documents and Confessions … fundamentally they do not believe that God uses foreknowledge in decreeing our destiny, so our will has no role to play in our own destiny. That’s exactly what they believe. So if foreknowledge is not used, and God decrees all things by his own alone without considering human, how can human’s free will be involved?

By the way, reformationtheology.com and monergism.com may not be completely evil, but they are at least very very biased on many issues. It’s like learning Catholicism on carm.org! I suggest you to look into the original document in full context. Thank you.

Calvinists do believe in foreknowledge because it is a biblical word. However, the definition of foreknown for a Calvinist is different than for Catholics and non-Calvinist Protestants. Personally, I don’t think any Christian group has a lock on truth. Even the Apostle Paul writes that we all know in part.

Foreknown according to Calvinists:

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=foreknown

 

[poptown]

Calvinists do believe in foreknowledge because it is a biblical word. However, the definition of foreknown for a Calvinist is different than for Catholics and non-Calvinist Protestants. Personally, I don’t think any Christian group has a lock on truth. Even the Apostle Paul writes that we all know in part.

Foreknown according to Calvinists:

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=foreknown

If you read the article, you can clearly see that Calvinist understanding of foreknowledge is drastically different from non-Calvinist understanding. For example, a quote from the article you gave says:

“So the meaning of the first act of God in Romans 8:29 is that God foreknows his own people in the sense that he chooses them and loves them and cares for them.”

So clearly the “foreknowledge” in this article is all about our destiny that God alone sets, and has nothing to do with free will. In fact, this article doesn’t talk about man’s will at all.

But you are right, that’s exactly how Calvinists understand foreknowledge: a synonym of unconditional predestination which has nothing to do with free will.

 

[Christian_Unity]

If you read the article, you can clearly see that Calvinist understanding of foreknowledge is drastically different from non-Calvinist understanding. For example, a quote from the article you gave says:

So clearly the “foreknowledge” in this article is all about our destiny that God alone sets, and has nothing to do with free will. In fact, this article doesn’t talk about man’s will at all.

But you are right, that’s exactly how Calvinists understand foreknowledge: a synonym of unconditional predestination which has nothing to do with free will.

Correct, I do believe when we discuss doctrine within various Christian circles, our defintion of certain bibical words can be quite different.

 

[Truthstalker]

poptown,

Of particular concern for you should be taking a Molinist viewpoint and attacking Thomist statements, or positions endorsed by the Catholic Church, that are presented by Calvinists, or seem to be. More than once on this forum I have seen authentic Catholic teaching reviled by Catholics because a Protestant stated something.

Conversations like:

Protestant: I believe in the Trinity.
Catholic: stinking heretic.

Ok, that may have just a touch of overstatement but it makes the point.

 

[Taestron]

Of particular concern for you should be taking a Molinist viewpoint and attacking Thomist statements, or positions endorsed by the Catholic Church, that are presented by Calvinists, or seem to be. More than once on this forum I have seen authentic Catholic teaching reviled by Catholics because a Protestant stated something.

Actually, I doubt that this particular issue is representative of that situation. Are you familiar with the heresy of Jansenism? It was condemned by the Church and shares (superficially if nothing else) a resemblance to hypercalvinism. So, perhaps before we begin to claim that certain aspects of Calvinism is traditional Church doctrine, we should make very sure that certain aspects are not official heresy as well.

 

[guanophore]

Personally, I don’t think any Christian group has a lock on truth. Even the Apostle Paul writes that we all know in part.

This is the very reason Jesus needed to appoint an infallible teaching authority as custodian over His One Church. He structued things so that His revealed Truth could be maintained without error precisely BECAUSE we are fallible humans and cannot know all of God. We do know with confidence all things we need for our salvation, because Jesus revealed them to His Apostles, and they to their successors the Bishops.

 

[poptown]

poptown,

Of particular concern for you should be taking a Molinist viewpoint and attacking Thomist statements, or positions endorsed by the Catholic Church, that are presented by Calvinists, or seem to be. More than once on this forum I have seen authentic Catholic teaching reviled by Catholics because a Protestant stated something.

Conversations like:

Protestant: I believe in the Trinity.
Catholic: stinking heretic.

Ok, that may have just a touch of overstatement but it makes the point.

I totally agree with what you said. I have been learning a lot since joining this forum … learning not to attack what Protestants are right about … But clearly Calvinism is essentially not Thomism … isn’t it? Because Thomism holds the doctrine of free will and the role of foreknowledge in predestination. Also, regarding unconditional predestination, I think it’s okay to say some of the predestination is completely unconditional (which I think is what Thomism would say to the extreme). However, if all predestination is unconditional, then there is no room for free will, which is against the fundamental Catholic doctrine.

But thank you for bringing the Thomism out here. It’s very important yet widely misunderstood.

 

[Christian_Unity]

This is the very reason Jesus needed to appoint an infallible teaching authority as custodian over His One Church. He structued things so that His revealed Truth could be maintained without error precisely BECAUSE we are fallible humans and cannot know all of God. We do know with confidence all things we need for our salvation, because Jesus revealed them to His Apostles, and they to their successors the Bishops.

I thought proselytizing is against Catholic Answers Forum rules. Does this only apply to non-Catholics only? Since I’m new here, please let me know what are the rules regarding Catholics proselytizing non-Catholic Christians. I’m already catholic everyone, so don’t worry about my soul.

 

[guanophore]

I thought proselytizing is against Catholic Answers Forum rules. Does this only apply to non-Catholics only? Since I’m new here, please let me know what are the rules regarding Catholics proselytizing non-Catholic Christians. I’m already catholic everyone, so don’t worry about my soul.

There is quite a bit of proselytizing that goes on here, and so far as I know, the rule against trying to convert Catholics or subvert people thinking of becoming Catholic is only applied to non-Catholics. This is an evangelical ministry, to provide to both Catholics and non-Catholics answers that represent the true teachings of the Church. Of course it is our hope and prayer that people will come home who have wandered from the faith, and those who discover that the CC is the one founded by Christ to come into unity with her.

I have seen Catholics (or people who claim to be) come in here and try to rationalize their lapsed ideas and values. Some “cafeteria” Catholics who openly refuse the TEachings of the Church have been banned, or asked to take the ID of Catholic off their profile so as not to mislead people coming here to learn about the true faith. I have seen Catholics banned who are grossly bigoted and abusive toward Protestants.

 

[Pwrlftr]

Nah, modern secularists make Calvinists look as harmless as your eccentric uncle Lenny. Best to just confound them by becoming holy rather than arguing too much with them.

Best piece of advice…ever !