HORIZONTAL vs. VERTICAL

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redkim

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Got your attention didn’t I? Well, I’m devious that way. 😉

But in all seriousness, there’s a reason why I don’t like most songs sung at Mass or holding hands during the Our Father, and I’m just trying to put words to that reasoning. Bear with me if I’m not making any sense.

It just seems to me that most songs at Mass are about US and OUR RELATIONSHIP with GOD. Now, you are probably thinking: “And the problem with that would be WHAT, kim?”

Hear me out. I don’t have a problem with SOME songs being that way, but it just don’t seem right that most songs are that way. At least at the Masses I go to.

So, what is the problem with those types of songs then? Well, for me, Mass needs to be about WORSHIP. And for me, worship isn’t about my relationship with God. Well, okay, it is a little bit, but it’s mostly about me worshipping God. Or rather, US as a community worshipping God. Yet it just seems like most of the songs I hear are about what God can do for us (Eagle’s Wings, anyone?). While they might be nice songs, they just don’t seem right in a place of worship.

Same holds true of holding hands during the Our Father. Now, it’s not a bad idea, but I don’t like it during Mass. It makes the prayer about us being one in community with each other, rather than simply a beautiful collective prayer of one voice up to God. This is what I mean by horizontal (about us) vs. vertical (up to God).

Is there anyone out there who feels the same way, or am I simply a nutjob? No comments from the Peanut gallery! 🙂
 
You make perfect sense and advance a good argument. There are a lot of people out there who won’t agree with you because they like the tune that a song goes with or its fun to sing. The problem is that these songs catechize the people who sing them, which is why I have to agree with your assessment. It wouldn’t be such a problem if only some of the songs sung during the Mass were this way, but often times, as you point out, they are the only songs sung.
 
Hi, Kim! I feel the same way. I love old Churches that foster vertical worship. Newer Churches that have pews on three sides of the Altar (no real Sanctuary, Altar at the same elevation as the pews) were invented to foster horizontal worship, I think. I believe that horizontal worship inevitably results in trying to bring God down to our level instead of striving to reach up to God on His level (vertical). I also agree with you that we should be individuals worshipping with one voice rather than being all touchy-feely or sappy as we focus on each other instead of God. One thing I’ve always liked about the Tridentine Mass is how Priest and people face in the same direction. The Priest leads the people in worship. That’s often another symptom of horizontal worshipers. They don’t want to be led, and call the Priest a “Presider” instead of a “Celebrant”.
 
You who dwell…(On eagles wings)
who abide in His shadow for life,
say to the Lord: ‘My refuge,
my God in whom I trust!’

this is the first stanza of On Eagles Wings. It is a song of praise and thanksgiving for the many blessing that He gives us. Seems perfectly appropriate to me.
 
The problem is that these songs catechize the people who sing them, which is why I have to agree with your assessment
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Indeed - a couple of weeks ago while we were singing Holy God We Praise Your Name - I thought about how that had so much more “meat” than some of the modern hymns and how it was as you say catechizing those who sang it. Look how much that last verse says.

**
**Holy God, We Praise Thy Name
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**
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**Holy God, we praise Thy Name;
Lord of all, we bow before Thee!
All on earth Thy scepter claim,
All in heaven above adore Thee;
Infinite Thy vast domain,
Everlasting is Thy reign.

Hark! the loud celestial hymn
Angel choirs above are raising,
Cherubim and seraphim,
In unceasing chorus praising;
Fill the heavens with sweet accord:
Holy, holy, holy, Lord.

Lo! the apostolic train
Join the sacred Name to hallow;
Prophets swell the loud refrain,
And the white-robed martyrs follow;
And from morn to set of sun,
Through the Church the song goes on.

Holy Father, Holy Son,
Holy Spirit, Three we name Thee;
While in essence only One,
Undivided God we claim Thee;
And adoring bend the knee,
While we own the mystery.
 
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redkim:
Got your attention didn’t I? Well, I’m devious that way. 😉

But in all seriousness, there’s a reason why I don’t like most songs sung at Mass or holding hands during the Our Father, and I’m just trying to put words to that reasoning. Bear with me if I’m not making any sense.

It just seems to me that most songs at Mass are about US and OUR RELATIONSHIP with GOD. Now, you are probably thinking: “And the problem with that would be WHAT, kim?”

Hear me out. I don’t have a problem with SOME songs being that way, but it just don’t seem right that most songs are that way. At least at the Masses I go to.

[It’s hard to comment on what constitutes “most” songs… and songs are prayers…]

So, what is the problem with those types of songs then? Well, for me, Mass needs to be about WORSHIP. And for me, worship isn’t about my relationship with God. Well, okay, it is a little bit, but it’s mostly about me worshipping God. Or rather, US as a community worshipping God. Yet it just seems like most of the songs I hear are about what God can do for us (Eagle’s Wings, anyone?). While they might be nice songs, they just don’t seem right in a place of worship.

[Songs among worship is scriptural, traditional and logical… now as to your personal taste in “which” song, that relative…]

Same holds true of holding hands during the Our Father. Now, it’s not a bad idea, but I don’t like it during Mass. It makes the prayer about us being one in community with each other, rather than simply a beautiful collective prayer of one voice up to God. This is what I mean by horizontal (about us) vs. vertical (up to God).
Is there anyone out there who feels the same way, or am I simply a nutjob? No comments from the Peanut gallery! :)*

i wouldn’t say that your a nutjob… 😃 But i do find a whole lot of mountain for this mole… 😃
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Unfortunately in a number of parishes, the liturgy committees avoid the songs that really commit us to God focusing instead on the recieve side and their pastor either encourages them or lets it happen. Seem like the same places, rarely get a homily calling them to live the Catholic faith deeply and make sacrifices to God.

:gopray2: Loving God, Grant that all parishes may preach the whole Truth in homilies and song. :gopray2:
 
While I agree that ‘Holy God, We Praise Thy Name’ is a wonderful hymn, there is still a lot of ‘we’ going on in there. Of course, the song is directed to the Lord, not to the collected body of persons referred to as ‘we’.

The use of the word ‘we’ is not so important as is the intended receipient of the song.
 
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deogratias:
Indeed - a couple of weeks ago while we were singing Holy God We Praise Your Name - I thought about how that had so much more “meat” than some of the modern hymns and how it was as you say catechizing those who sang it. Look how much that last verse says.
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Did you know that “Holy God” is a paraphrase of that wonderful prayer, the Te Deum Laudamus?

Betsy
 
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DeniseTOCarm:
You who dwell…(On eagles wings)
who abide in His shadow for life,
say to the Lord: ‘My refuge,
my God in whom I trust!’

this is the first stanza of On Eagles Wings. It is a song of praise and thanksgiving for the many blessing that He gives us. Seems perfectly appropriate to me.
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And here’s the rest of it, which is all about what God will do for us, not us worshipping God:

You who dwell in the shelter of the Lord,
Who abide in His shadow for life,
Say to the Lord, “My Refuge,
My Rock in Whom I trust.”

Refrain
And He will raise you up on eagle’s wings,
Bear you on the breath of dawn,
Make you to shine like the sun,
And hold you in the palm of His Hand.

The snare of the fowler will never capture you,
And famine will bring you no fear;
Under His Wings your refuge,
His faithfulness your shield.

Refrain
And He will raise you up on eagle’s wings,
Bear you on the breath of dawn,
Make you to shine like the sun,
And hold you in the palm of His Hand.

You need not fear the terror of the night,
Nor the arrow that flies by day,
Though thousands fall about you,
Near you it shall not come.

Refrain
And He will raise you up on eagle’s wings,
Bear you on the breath of dawn,
Make you to shine like the sun,
And hold you in the palm of His Hand.

For to His angels He’s given a command,
To guard you in all of your ways,
Upon their hands they will bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Refrain
And He will raise you up on eagle’s wings,
Bear you on the breath of dawn,
Make you to shine like the sun,
And hold you in the palm of His Hand.
And hold you in the palm of His Hand.
 
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Mjohn1453:
You make perfect sense and advance a good argument. There are a lot of people out there who won’t agree with you because they like the tune that a song goes with or its fun to sing. The problem is that these songs catechize the people who sing them, which is why I have to agree with your assessment. It wouldn’t be such a problem if only some of the songs sung during the Mass were this way, but often times, as you point out, they are the only songs sung.
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Thanks! And let it be known I also love the song “Take Our Bread.” The main reason is because of the sentimental value: it was the song of my First Holy Communion, back in 197-- 😉

Here are the words:

*Refrain:
Take our bread, we ask you,
Take our hearts, we love you,
Take our lives, oh Father,
We are yours, we are yours.

*Yours as we stand at the table you set,
Yours as we eat the bread our hearts can’t forget.
We are the signs of your life with us yet;
We are yours, we are yours.

Refrain

Your holy people stand washed in your blood,
Spirit filled, yet hungry, we await your food.
Poor thought we are, we have brought
Ourselves to you:
We are yours, we are yours.

Yeah, in a way, it’s about US, but it’s about our nature and what we are doing: devoting our lives to God. Perhaps the very fact that I can remember my First Holy Communion Song from over 30 years ago is an early sign that I would later become a nun (God-willing)
 
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redkim:
And here’s the rest of it, which is all about what God will do for us, not us worshipping God…
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I feel the need to point out that the song is based on Psalm 91. So lets not criticize it too much, eh?
 
Deogratias:

I LOVE Holy God We Praise Thy Name! I also love Faith of Our Fathers:

    • Faith of our fathers, living still,
      In spite of dungeon, fire, and sword;
      Oh, how our hearts beat high with joy
      Whene’er we hear that glorious Word!
      • Refrain:
        Faith of our fathers, holy faith!
        We will be true to thee till death.
      • Faith of our fathers, we will strive
        To win all nations unto thee;
        And through the truth that comes from God,
        We all shall then be truly free.
      • Faith of our fathers, we will love
        Both friend and foe in all our strife;
        And preach thee, too, as love knows how
        By kindly words and virtuous life.
 
Oh and as a side note, Kim, what community are you looking at joining? The Dominicans are a big group…
 
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SMHW:
Keep in mind that “On Eagles Wings” is fairly accurate adaptation of Psalm 91

usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm91.htm
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My bad. Wrong psalm. As I said, these are not bad songs, even to have a bit in Mass at times, but they should not be the proliferation that they are, even if they are based on psalms. Most of the psalms were not about what God was doing for David, but rather what David was doing for God.
 
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Bizob:
Oh and as a side note, Kim, what community are you looking at joining? The Dominicans are a big group…
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Dominican Congregation of the Holy Cross.
 
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