Horrible dilemma - what should you do?

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A while ago I heard about a situation in medieval Japan where a group of priests or missionaries were placed in a horrible situation: commit apostasy or watch the villagers that they were involved with be tortured/killed.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what they did, so my first question is whether anyone here does, or even whether anyone has more information about this incident. My second question is whether we have any indication as to the state of their (the priests/missionaries) souls. And my third question is, if any one of us were thrust in a similar situation, what should or must we do?
 
Cradle said:
A while ago I heard about a situation in medieval Japan where a group of priests or missionaries were placed in a horrible situation: commit apostasy or watch the villagers that they were involved with be tortured/killed.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what they did, so my first question is whether anyone here does, or even whether anyone has more information about this incident. My second question is whether we have any indication as to the state of their (the priests/missionaries) souls. And my third question is, if any one of us were thrust in a similar situation, what should or must we do?
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I don’t have any information about the incident, but my first inclination would be to fight for the villagers.
 
Cradle said:
A while ago I heard about a situation in medieval Japan where a group of priests or missionaries were placed in a horrible situation: commit apostasy or watch the villagers that they were involved with be tortured/killed.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what they did, so my first question is whether anyone here does, or even whether anyone has more information about this incident. My second question is whether we have any indication as to the state of their (the priests/missionaries) souls. And my third question is, if any one of us were thrust in a similar situation, what should or must we do?
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I actually heard a similiar situation brought up on Relevant Radio…asked to Father Thomas Loya. It was in regards to the Fox reporters who were kidnapped in iraq, (about 3 months ago maybe?) and were asked to convert to Islam. (You convert by reciting something…I can’t think of the spelling for it now)

Well…they recited it, and their lives were spared. Will they go to Hell, the question was asked on the show? Father Loya said that God isn’t going to make unreasonable requests from us…they didn’t WILLINGLY convert…they were COERCED. God also knows our hearts–reciting a few lines to get out of harm’s way, certainly doesn’t sound like a conversion to me. :o If one is coerced, then it’s not sinful. They said that they had no intentions (when interviewed after being rescued) of converting to Islam. God doesn’t expect us to be martyrs. Father Loya said ‘becoming a martyr is never necessary for salvation.’
 
Saint Paul Miki and the companion martyrs…is this who you mean?

Their feast day is the 6th of February and their story is as follows:

Born in Japan between the years 1564 and 1566. He entered the Society of Jesus and preached the Gospel with success, but when the persecution of Catholics arose he and twenty-five others were seized and subjected to terrible tortures and finally were crucified at Nagasaki in the year 1597 on February 5th.

Personally I would not renounce Jesus and would hope to have the courage of the martyrs.
 
Well, I knew about St. Paul Miki & companions, but, unless I have their story wrong, they were faced with either renounce the Faith or suffer torture/death, as you said; not renounce the Faith or condemn others to suffer torture/death. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, but that is how I remember it, and I even remember a part about how the Japanese authorities realized that the Christians were willing to part with their lives for Christ, but if others’ lives hung in the balance… So I’m thinking this might have been an incident after the martyrdom of St. Paul Miki and companions?

:confused:
 
Cradle said:
And my third question is, if any one of us were thrust in a similar situation, what should or must we do?
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This is the only question I can really answer I think. I’d say just go with your instinct. I highly doubt you would be held accountable for anything that would in normal circumstances be sinful.

I must say my first instinct is to NEVER renounce Jesus…but thank goodness I haven’t had to test myself.
 
I am totally taking a stab in the dark on this one, but I wonder if you’re forced to renounce Jesus in order to prevent the deaths of innocent people if that “counts”. I mean, if you’re forced, then it’s not concent of will, which must exist for a mortal sin to take place, and I can’t imagine more mortal a sin than renouncing our Lord.

Just a guess. It’s a grim thing to contemplate.
 
Links to saint stories about martyrs.
Japanese Martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1283
http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/m/martyrs,japanese.html

Jesuit Martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1173

Vietnamese martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1209

Korean martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1144

Chinese martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1914
http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/m/martyrs_in_china.html

Ugandan martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1403

Mexican martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1913
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1208

Dutch martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/saint.asp?id=1439

French martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1126

English martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1442
http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/e/english_confessors_and_martyrs.html
http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia/e/edmund_campion,saint.html

Filipino martyrs
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1146
 
There’s a SUPERB novel which explores this very issue in a book called ‘Silence’ by Shusaku Endo. Scorsese is, I’ve heard, making a film of it.

The book is deeply disturbing, because this choice at its very centre - for a priest to stamp on a picture of Christ, or watch an entire village of innocent people be tortured and murdered - and be forced to watch.

I’d say it’s recommended reading for anyone under any illusions that faith is black and white.
 
Cradle said:
A while ago I heard about a situation in medieval Japan where a group of priests or missionaries were placed in a horrible situation: commit apostasy or watch the villagers that they were involved with be tortured/killed.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what they did, so my first question is whether anyone here does, or even whether anyone has more information about this incident. My second question is whether we have any indication as to the state of their (the priests/missionaries) souls. And my third question is, if any one of us were thrust in a similar situation, what should or must we do?
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I read the book about this, “Silence.”

The two priest were ordered to commit apostasy by stamping into the ground, a crucifix and declaring publicly, that Christianity is a lie.

The two priest refused, thinking they would be tortured. However instead, the dynamo had the villagers bound and hung by their feet into a pit. The priest resisted for two days, and the sounds of suffering from the people, was getting to them. They prayed to God for an answer, but received nothing. Out of compassion for the people being tortured, they agreed to the authorities demand.

One priest after doing so, regretted it especially as he saw the level of faith the people who were tortured continued to have.

Myself, I can’t say what I would do. I pray I’m never put into the situation.

Jim
 
2 Machabees Chapter 7 tells us quite clearly what our response should be. The priests should pray for the souls of the people, that they remain true and be received into Heaven in glory.
 
Eileen_T said:
2 Machabees Chapter 7 tells us quite clearly what our response should be. The priests should pray for the souls of the people, that they remain true and be received into Heaven in glory.
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This is what I was thinking of… everyone dies, how we die is the question! IMHO the correct response would be to pray for their souls that everyone is brought stairhgt into heaven. (The Divine Mercy). If I was one of the villagers I would hope a priest was their for me. Alas, we never know how strong our will is going to be until we are tested. We should maybe pray we are never tested in that way… either the Preist or the villager.
 
Thank you for your replies. I guess “Silence” is what I was looking for.
 
It seems to me that one’s flock is the issue here. To a theist, if your god is indeed omniscient and merciful, then I would hope such trivial actions as stomping a symbol or empty words would be as nothing, compared to the suffering and death of a priest’s innocent flock. It’s one thing to be tortured and die for what one believes, but when that is visited upon those entrusted to you?

As a nontheist, I would not hesitate to publicly renounce my lack of belief, and even genuinely try to BE of whatever faith forced upon me if I had to, to prevent such horror, even though I do not think myself able to hold any religious faith whatsoever. Whether or not it were only lip service, evil and human misery would be averted. And if a God is worthy of the title, would that not suffice?
 
Only God knows what is truly in your heart. Empty words does not a heart convert.

Save the villagers.

There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend - so to speak.
 
This kind of reminds me of the story of Masada. The jewish warriors who, when their fortress was about to fall, killed the women and children they were defending, rather than let the attackers do worse. (Apologies if I have the facts wrong, but I think that’s about the size of it)

Horrible situation… but was it a sin?
 
Cradle said:
Well, I knew about St. Paul Miki & companions, but, unless I have their story wrong, they were faced with either renounce the Faith or suffer torture/death, as you said; not renounce the Faith or condemn others to suffer torture/death. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, but that is how I remember it, and I even remember a part about how the Japanese authorities realized that the Christians were willing to part with their lives for Christ, but if others’ lives hung in the balance… So I’m thinking this might have been an incident after the martyrdom of St. Paul Miki and companions?

:confused:
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If other people’s lives are stake and they are not willing to be martyred,then it would probably be prudent to commit a feigned apostasy and then figure out a way to get yourself and the others away from that situation.
But if no one else’s life is at stake or if they are willing to be martyred with you,then there is no need for deception,unless you are not ready for martyrdom.
 
At first, I rush to say that renouncing the Church and saving the villagers is the morally correct action. After all, to assume that God would not provide - in some manner, earthly or heavenly - for oneself and the villagers seems to imply that God isn’t in control, but that the person of whom apostasy is demanded feels in control.

Still, is feigned apostasy truly sinful? Hard to say, but it seems to me that even pretending to deny God by saying the words and deceiving others into believing the lie seems sinful. 🤷

Of course, it’s the lives of others that bring the problems here. If it were simply one’s own life at stake, apostasy is out of the question. Whether it’s that “simple” in reality is an entirely different issue, but the point is that it is most definitely not the same problem as when others’ lives are in jeopardy.
 
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