Horrible experience assisting at Mass

[MarkThompson]

How do you read that passage of the CCC?

Well, first, let’s be clear, number 841 of the Catechism is a direct quotation from paragraph 16 of Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. Many books have been written about it, and I’m sure many more will be. I’m not going to reargue the whole issue here, and frankly armchair theologians arguing things generally does more harm and spreads more error than anything else.

At any rate, the passage you’ve quoted says nothing about who will be saved. It says that the “plan of salvation” includes the Muslims, but isn’t that obvious? God’s plan for salvation was a plan for all mankind. Not all will be saved, but Christ did indeed die for the sins of all men – even those who reject him. The other part of the Catechism you bolded says that there are true and good things in other religions, and that we ought to acknowledge them. This is also obvious: if a religion says there is one God, who created the heavens and the earth, that’s a truth that it’s teaching. If it says murder and adultery are wrong, and tries to inculcate those values in its faithful, that’s a good thing.

 

[palmas855]

Well, first, let’s be clear, number 841 of the Catechism is a direct quotation from paragraph 16 of Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. Many books have been written about it, and I’m sure many more will be. I’m not going to reargue the whole issue here, and frankly armchair theologians arguing things generally does more harm and spreads more error than anything else.

At any rate, the passage you’ve quoted says nothing about who will be saved. It says that the “plan of salvation” includes the Muslims, but isn’t that obvious? God’s plan for salvation was a plan for all mankind. Not all will be saved, but Christ did indeed die for the sins of all men – even those who reject him. The other part of the Catechism you bolded says that there are true and good things in other religions, and that we ought to acknowledge them. This is also obvious: if a religion says there is one God, who created the heavens and the earth, that’s a truth that it’s teaching. If it says murder and adultery are wrong, and tries to inculcate those values in its faithful, that’s a good thing.

The same religion also states that Christ is not devine and that he did not die for the sins of mankind. In fact they say that he was not crucified, it only appeared so and that Christians worship three gods. It also says that there is no original sin and that Christ was not neeeded for salvation, as each person has the ability to save himself. There is no Holy Spirit.

(Sura 4:171): “Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son.”

From the Koran, and yes I did not say the Holy Koran. Sorry if I offended you

Koran (5:51) - “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” What? You mean they are not supposed to be our friends?

Koran (5:80) - “You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.”

Koran (3:85) - “And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.”

On the whole, Islam is very clear in teaching that there is no equality between believers and unbelievers, and hence no basis for a relationship based on equality. Those who do not belief in Islam are intended to exist in subjugation to those who do, then spend eternity in Hell. This does not stop Muslims from acting friendly toward others, of course, but this does not mean that they are really friends…

Conversion by Muslims to other religions, is strictly forbidden and is termed apostasy. Muslim theology equates apostasy to treason, and in most interpretations of Sharia, Islamic Law, the penalty for apostasy is death

As far as murder being taught as being wrong, I think that is somewhat debatable as is most Islamic Law, which is based the the Koran . Ditto with adultery. It all depends on who is murdering and who is being murdered and who commits the adultery. Further, forensic evidence is considered inferior to eyewitness testimony and personal oaths. Thus, a Muslim could murder a non Muslim, swear that he di not do it and walk away scot free, irregardless of any actual physical evidence that might prove otherwise. Pretty cool huh?.Of course if he kills a Muslim, he could have some difficulty if another Muslim saw it and testifies. A womans testimony is only half as valuable as a mans and the testimony of a non Muslim is excluded totally if that testimony is against a Muslim. So in our above murder example, a Christian witnesses the murder and testifies against the Muslim. No good, that testimony is rejected. A Muslim woman witnesses the same murder and testifies. The murderer says he did not do it, swears an oath that he did not do it and voila! Scot free again for the womans testimony is trumped by his oath and religion. In adultery for example. The husband accuses the wife of adultery. Remember, his testimony has more weight than hers automatically, so she is guilty. Just like that… She can be stoned. The man commits adultery. The woman testifies against him. He denies it and even goes so far as to swear an oath that he did not do it. Scot free again. Oh and just for good measure divorce is permitted and polygamy allowed.

In some Islamic countries, such as Saudi Arabia, it is illegal to practice the Christian faith. You cannot even wear anything that is obvious that shows you to be a Christian such as a crucifix. And whatever you do, don’t ever try to preach Christianity or you will be sorry.

Yep, it sure sounds lIke a good thing to me and something that we should all be proud to associate with.!

 

[MarkThompson]

Yep, it sure sounds lIke a good thing to me and something that we should all be proud to associate with.!

It really doesn’t matter what it sounds like to you. When our Church teaches us – maybe this is a lesson your mother forgot to teach you? – that we ought to see and acknowledge the good in others, I consider it a pretty sorry show to spit on that and instead draw up a list of others’ failings and pronounce that the people do not bear associating with. There’s a time and place for presenting your list of things you disagree with, but it’s not any sort of triumphal, ironic-thumbs-up counterargument to the directive to look for the good in others.

Is this how you behave?

And let’s not forget, shall we, Palmas, that God created Muhammad in his image, and Christ died for Muhammad’s sins. Same with every Muslim.

 

[just_came_back]

There is no salvation outside Christianity. Sorry folks, if you’re Christian, this IS our core belief. Christ said HE ALONE is the way to go. “No man cometh to the Father except through me.”

 

[aicirt]

Tolerance is one thing but to praise Islam from the pulpit is wrong. I would have felt the same as the OP. Islam is a false religion. I attended a Mass where the priest wanted to attend a Buddhist retreat. He said this from the pulpit. As another said, all this leads to is confusion. You’re being told to embrace another religion as being as true as your own. If you think this doesn’t influence young people, you’re wrong. If a priest says that by word or actions, how do you combat that?

 

[palmas855]

It really doesn’t matter what it sounds like to you. When our Church teaches us – maybe this is a lesson your mother forgot to teach you? – that we ought to see and acknowledge the good in others, I consider it a pretty sorry show to spit on that and instead draw up a list of others’ failings and pronounce that the people do not bear associating with. There’s a time and place for presenting your list of things you disagree with, but it’s not any sort of triumphal, ironic-thumbs-up counterargument to the directive to look for the good in others.

Is this how you behave?

And let’s not forget, shall we, Palmas, that God created Muhammad in his image, and Christ died for Muhammad’s sins. Same with every Muslim.

I presented a list of truths about Islam and added my opinion about it. While true Christ died for Mohammed and everyone else, He did not die for Islam as a faith.

That is the difference. As far as seeing good, In my time on this earth I have seen precious little good come out of the faith Islam. Individual Muslims are a different story.

I can and do see the good in them, and I pray that they will see the error that they are commiting… But in the faith of Islam???

Never.

 

[VetA]

So Sir Knight,

You’re more Catholic than the Pope? Are you in SSPX?

dont be rude, first of all i dont ever recall the SSPX ever saying they were ‘more Catholic than the Pope’

your insult may work better if you changed SSPX to a sedevacantist organization like Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen or the SSPV

 

[Sir_Knight]

Well, first, let’s be clear, number 841 of the Catechism is a direct quotation from paragraph 16 of Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. Many books have been written about it, and I’m sure many more will be. I’m not going to reargue the whole issue here, and frankly armchair theologians arguing things generally does more harm and spreads more error than anything else.

At any rate, the passage you’ve quoted says nothing about who will be saved. It says that the “plan of salvation” includes the Muslims, but isn’t that obvious? God’s plan for salvation was a plan for all mankind. Not all will be saved, but Christ did indeed die for the sins of all men – even those who reject him. The other part of the Catechism you bolded says that there are true and good things in other religions, and that we ought to acknowledge them. This is also obvious: if a religion says there is one God, who created the heavens and the earth, that’s a truth that it’s teaching. If it says murder and adultery are wrong, and tries to inculcate those values in its faithful, that’s a good thing.

That was a very informative reply. Thank you.

 

[Sir_Knight]

There is no salvation outside Christianity. Sorry folks, if you’re Christian, this IS our core belief. Christ said HE ALONE is the way to go. “No man cometh to the Father except through me.”

Correction: There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church … ‘A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: "The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?’ – Encyclical of Pope Gregory XVI (August 15, 1832)

 

[just_came_back]

Sir, my parents are Godly protestants and they’re going to Heaven. nuff said.

You must be of the Mel Gibson Catholicism.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir, my parents are Godly protestants and they’re going to Heaven. nuff said.

And you’ve come to this conclusion based on what? Scripture? Which tells us that in John 6 that " … unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you … " or on official Church teaching which tells us that " *… *Therefore "without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate … "

You must be of the Mel Gibson Catholicism.

No, Roman Catholic (Latin Rite) based on the teachings of the Vatican.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Sir, my parents are Godly protestants and they’re going to Heaven. nuff said.

You must be of the Mel Gibson Catholicism.

I wouldn’t count on that.

 

[just_came_back]

So I guess I will leave this site thanks to you 2. I guess the whole ecumenism that the Church teaches now is nothing to you to. I shake the dust off my feet in condemnation of you too. VAYA CON DIOS!!!

I will continue my Catholic walk with earnest and devotion. Nice board, except for attitudes like you 2. Peace friends!

 

[bmadamsberry]

Sir, my parents are Godly protestants and they’re going to Heaven. nuff said.

You must be of the Mel Gibson Catholicism.

While we can’t be sure that your parents are going to Heaven (I don’t know what the state of their souls will be at the moment of their death), I can say that there are Protestants that will be in Heaven.

Catholic Answers has a discussion over salvation outside the Church here. To sum it up, being Catholic is the normative way of going to Heaven (similar to how baptism by water is the normative, but not only, way of being baptized).
In essance, those that have said things like “I wouldn’t count on that” are mistaken. Furthermore, the Church allows for the possibility for a nonChristian to be saved. So, shame on some of you.

 

[ProVobis]

You must be of the Mel Gibson Catholicism.

That’s a rather cheap shot. Without trying to judge him, Mel Gibson seems like a scandal and I don’t think there’s any poster here who supports such scandals.

 

[bmadamsberry]

That’s a rather cheap shot. Without trying to judge him, Mel Gibson seems like a scandal and I don’t think there’s any poster here who supports such scandals.

Technically, Mel Gibson is more of a sedevacantism, like his father was.

 

[Sir_Knight]

While we can’t be sure that your parents are going to Heaven (I don’t know what the state of their souls will be at the moment of their death), I can say that there are Protestants that will be in Heaven.

Catholic Answers has a discussion over salvation outside the Church here. To sum it up, being Catholic is the normative way of going to Heaven (similar to how baptism by water is the normative, but not only, way of being baptized).
In essance, those that have said things like “I wouldn’t count on that” are mistaken. Furthermore, the Church allows for the possibility for a nonChristian to be saved. So, shame on some of you.

Do you know what Church Dogma is? It is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church which can NEVER be changed or contradicted. Have you read what previous Popes have OFFICIALLY declared on this matter?

1. 
   *]“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39)
   
   *]“If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to this faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized (means excommunicated) according to the opinion of the same Fathers… Consider (therefore) the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church, cannot have the Lord. [Gal. 3:7]” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 246)
   
   *]“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 423)
   
   *]"…we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff." (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 469)
   
   These are not somebody’s OPINIONS but OFFICIALLY DECLARED CHURCH DOGMAS. To clear up any misunderstanding that might exist, Pope Benedict recently approved a document saying non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the ONLY true path to salvation. (Source).

 

[damooster]

When our Church teaches us – maybe this is a lesson your mother forgot to teach you? –

You should be ashamed of yourself. Someone disagrees with you and automatically that person’s parents failed?

What if palmas wasn’t raised by his/her mother? What if she is not currently living?

 

[bmadamsberry]

Do you know what Church Dogma is? It is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the Church which can NEVER be changed or contradicted. Have you read what previous Popes have OFFICIALLY declared on this matter?

These are not somebody’s OPINIONS but OFFICIALLY DECLARED CHURCH DOGMAS. To clear up any misunderstanding that might exist, Pope Benedict recently approved a document saying non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the ONLY true path to salvation. (Source).

Thank you, ‘sir’, but I do know what Dogma is. I find it ironic, however, that your quotes don’t come from the Catholic Church, but are from a book (which, in some cases, quotes the Church). Why not quote the Church directly?

CCC, 846-848, 851
“Outside the Church there is no salvation” - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14).
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).
“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (Hebrews 11:6), the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (Second Vatican Council, Ad Gentes, 1).
Missionary Motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, “for the love of Christ urges us on,” (2 Corinthians 5:14; cf. Apostolicam actuositatem 6, Roman Missal 11). Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4); that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

One can also read Unitatis Redintegratio, 3

But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those to whom He has given new birth into one body, and whom He has quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one body of Christ into which all those must be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God…

 

[bmadamsberry]

Dominus Iesus, the bane of liberal ecumenicalists, states:

for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The benefit is, of course, doing your own research as opposed to relying on a single book to do the work for you. So, we have the CCC, Lumen Gentium, Ad Gentes, Unitatis Redintegratio, and Dominus Iesus all going against you (and please actually read these, don’t just skim them. I don’t want to have to answer questions that are already answered in the quotes).