"Horrors" Commited By the RCC

[Alfie]

Thal59:

.

According to what I have read by the Catholics on this forum no one really knows for sure who will make it to heaven. So by that reasoning that would include Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul. No one knows for sure if either of them made it to heaven. If that is what Catholics really believe than how can you pray to your saints by name when you have no proof that any of them are in heaven?<<<

BINGO!!! A MASTERFUL example of suddenly changing the subject!!! Who ever mentioned “knowing” who has made it into heaven??? From this “Bolt Out Of The Blue” we have another subject change that questions the validity of praying to the saints!

Thal59

I understood what your post meant. By the way did Jesus have a state funeral? How many of the diciples had one?

You made a comment about Mother Teresa and John Paul being saints who were chosen by God. Why was it an unreasonable question to ask you if they are in heaven? I will say it again… you do not know who made it to heaven.That is part of Catholic theology not Protestant theology.You are the one who brought up sainthood.

 

[katewithak]

As promised: Zwingli and Anabaptists

As was true of Luther’s followers, there were those among Zwingli’s followers who felt he did not go far enough in the application of his principles. Because of the silence of the Scriptures on the administration of baptism to infants, some of Zwingli’s followers began to doubt the validity of infant baptism. Efforts to suppress their views only encouraged them to act upon them. On January 21, 1525 a group of them received “baptism” during a meeting in a private home in Zurich. Initially, it seems that sprinkling was the mode used, but immersion soon began to be practiced. These views were soon spread to other places where they won converts. The groups thus formed separated themselves into their own communions and were called “Anabaptists” (“rebaptizers”) due to their most distinctive practice. Anabaptists were bitterly opposed, even by Zwingli, and they were sometimes punished by drowning.

Anabaptists were severely persecuted because their views were regarded as detrimental to social order. In some parts they were treated as seditionists. This was because they believed in separation of church and state and that uniform religious faith was not essential to public peace and order. They viewed government as a necessary evil and opposed any involvement in it. They also opposed oath-taking, the bearing of arms, religious coercion, and any form of church discipline beyond excommunication. They supported believers’ baptism, common observance of the Lord’s Supper, and congregational independence. One group, the “Hutterite Brethren,” established a lasting communistic order. Various tenets of Anabaptist beliefs survived in the Baptists, Congregationalists, and Quakers.

 

[katewithak]

Understand I am not tryig to make light of the Inquisition by my four posts above defining inquisition and reformation. I guess it is like this: The Christian church did not believe in killing heretics during it’s first 3 centuries. Aftr that, it depended on which view one took of the Eucharist and Christ. Prior to the first three centuries, killing of heretics was common, both under secular governments and Judaism. The OT is full of deaths to heretics.
Now with the Protestant Reformation, we see that over 72,000 catholics were killed in England alone. Anabaptists were almost wiped out in parts of Switzerland by Zwingli who had no scruples at killing Catholics as well. Why is the Catholic Inquisition such a big deal then?
Because Protestants and anti Catholics like to point to the Inquisition as proof that Catholics kill heretics. Catholics on the otherhand, dismiss the killing of Catholics by reformers. Why? Probably because in the eyes of the Church, someone such as Zwingli or Henry the VIII has put themselves outside the pale of religion by denying the truth of the Church. Therefore, they have become laicized or rather secularized and it dissolves into an action of political or secular history. The actions of Zwingli or Henry VIII are not seen as religious actions by the Catholic Church. Which leniency the Protestants have taken full advantage of within the United States. Therefore, if thousands of heretics are put to death by Catholics, it is viewed as religious persecution. If 72,000 Catholics are put to death by Protestants, it is viewed as a secular event. Or by Protestants as “Reformation”.

 

[Thal59]

Alfie:

I understood what your post meant. By the way did Jesus have a state funeral? How many of the diciples had one?

You made a comment about Mother Teresa and John Paul being saints who were chosen by God. Why was it an unreasonable question to ask you if they are in heaven? I will say it again… you do not know who made it to heaven.That is part of Catholic theology not Protestant theology.You are the one who brought up sainthood.

I understood what your post meant. By the way did Jesus have a state funeral? How many of the diciples had one?<<<

A ridiculous question which is not worthy of response.

You made a comment about Mother Teresa and John Paul being saints who were chosen by God.<<<

Never made that statement. I asked why God raises up saints like them only in the Catholic church. In other words, only those who are in the church Jesus established through the apostles seem to be able to reach such a level of holiness which, in turn, shows a closeness to God that is not so evident in Protestant churches.

I am not sure if that constitutes being “chosen” as you have interpreted my words to mean.

Why was it an unreasonable question to ask you if they are in heaven? I will say it again… you do not know who made it to heaven.That is part of Catholic theology not Protestant theology.You are the one who brought up sainthood.<<<

Nobody knows for certain who is in heaven or who is condemned, so the question can only be an excuse for a pointless argument. And again, the question of who is in heaven or not has absolutely nothing to do with my post. It is a pointless question that you asked in an attempt to digress from the subject matter.

But if you believe in this Protestant philosophy you mentioned, which declares that all who believe and die in Christ go directly into heaven, then your question regarding whether one knows or not that someone is in heaven indeed becomes unreasonable.

I have made statements regarding the holiness of certain Catholics that even the world has acknowledged. You have given me Albert Schweitzer, pointless “how do you know who is in heaven” questions, silly questions about state funerals for Jesus or His disciples, generalities about sainthood, etc.

I don’t wish to sound arrogant, but I expect a person with a contrary view to demonstrate an ability to identify the specific points I have offered and to rebut them in an equally specific manner.

You haven’t done so… so this conversation is ended.

Thal59

 

[Thal59]

Katewithak…

That’s quite a rug you knitted!

But don’t forget that many so-called “reformed” sects really had nothing to do with religion. They were groups of people who used religion as a mask for their attempts to attack the current monarchy or aristocracy in an attempt to obtain or re-distribute national power and wealth.

Thal59

 

[Church_Militant]

The Real Inquisition

When the sins of the Catholic Church are recited (as they so often are) the Inquisition figures prominently. People with no interest in European history know full well that it was led by brutal and fanatical churchmen who tortured, maimed, and killed those who dared question the authority of the Church. The word “Inquisition” is part of our modern vocabulary, describing both an institution and a period of time. Having one of your hearings referred to as an “Inquisition” is not a compliment for most senators.

The Inquisition

Sooner or later, any discussion of apologetics with Fundamentalists will address the Inquisition. To non-Catholics it is a scandal; to Catholics, an embarrassment; to both, a confusion. It is a handy stick for Catholic-bashing, simply because most Catholics seem at a loss for a sensible reply. This tract will set the record straight.

There have actually been several different inquisitions. The first was established in 1184 in southern France as a response to the Catharist heresy. This was known as the Medieval Inquisition, and it was phased out as Catharism disappeared.

Quite separate was the Roman Inquisition, begun in 1542. It was the least active and most benign of the three variations.

Separate again was the infamous Spanish Inquisition, started in 1478, a state institution used to identify conversos—Jews and Moors (Muslims) who pretended to convert to Christianity for purposes of political or social advantage and secretly practiced their former religion. More importantly, its job was also to clear the good names of many people who were falsely accused of being heretics. It was the Spanish Inquisition that, at least in the popular imagination, had the worst record of fulfilling these duties.

The various inquisitions stretched through the better part of a millennia, and can collectively be called “the Inquisition.”

Q: My son has left the Church and is attacking it for having had the Inquisition. What can I say to respond?

A: Point out that the Inquisition was intended not to convert people, but to find people who were outwardly claiming to be Christian but secretly practiced another religion, such as people who had become Christian outwardly, but who were still secretly practicing anti-Messianic Judaism, Islam, or Albigensianism, this last being a religion claiming that there are two gods, one good and one evil. The Inquisition was thus an attempt to protect the purity of the Christian community.

Also point out that the Protestants had a counter-Inquisition that killed Catholics. Thousands of Catholics were killed in England alone after the Reformation struck there. The same thing was true in Ireland and other areas where the Reformation came. John Calvin, for instance, was known for burning people at the stake.

In addition, Protestants were the big witch-burners. Witch burning never caught on in Catholic countries. When the Spanish Inquisition examined the cases of reported witches, it almost invariably concluded that the charges were false and the accused were not guilty. But tens of thousands of supposed witches were burned at the stake, hanged, or drowned in Protestant countries, including the American colonies. Question from “This Rock” Magazine

This should help answer the inquisition issues.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[katewithak]

The Real Inquisition

When the sins of the Catholic Church are recited (as they so often are) the Inquisition figures prominently. People with no interest in European history know full well that it was led by brutal and fanatical churchmen who tortured, maimed, and killed those who dared question the authority of the Church. The word “Inquisition” is part of our modern vocabulary, describing both an institution and a period of time. Having one of your hearings referred to as an “Inquisition” is not a compliment for most senators.

The Inquisition

Sooner or later, any discussion of apologetics with Fundamentalists will address the Inquisition. To non-Catholics it is a scandal; to Catholics, an embarrassment; to both, a confusion. It is a handy stick for Catholic-bashing, simply because most Catholics seem at a loss for a sensible reply. This tract will set the record straight.

There have actually been several different inquisitions. The first was established in 1184 in southern France as a response to the Catharist heresy. This was known as the Medieval Inquisition, and it was phased out as Catharism disappeared.

Quite separate was the Roman Inquisition, begun in 1542. It was the least active and most benign of the three variations.

Separate again was the infamous Spanish Inquisition, started in 1478, a state institution used to identify conversos—Jews and Moors (Muslims) who pretended to convert to Christianity for purposes of political or social advantage and secretly practiced their former religion. More importantly, its job was also to clear the good names of many people who were falsely accused of being heretics. It was the Spanish Inquisition that, at least in the popular imagination, had the worst record of fulfilling these duties.

The various inquisitions stretched through the better part of a millennia, and can collectively be called “the Inquisition.”

Q: My son has left the Church and is attacking it for having had the Inquisition. What can I say to respond?

A: Point out that the Inquisition was intended not to convert people, but to find people who were outwardly claiming to be Christian but secretly practiced another religion, such as people who had become Christian outwardly, but who were still secretly practicing anti-Messianic Judaism, Islam, or Albigensianism, this last being a religion claiming that there are two gods, one good and one evil. The Inquisition was thus an attempt to protect the purity of the Christian community.

Also point out that the Protestants had a counter-Inquisition that killed Catholics. Thousands of Catholics were killed in England alone after the Reformation struck there. The same thing was true in Ireland and other areas where the Reformation came. John Calvin, for instance, was known for burning people at the stake.

In addition, Protestants were the big witch-burners. Witch burning never caught on in Catholic countries. When the Spanish Inquisition examined the cases of reported witches, it almost invariably concluded that the charges were false and the accused were not guilty. But tens of thousands of supposed witches were burned at the stake, hanged, or drowned in Protestant countries, including the American colonies. Question from “This Rock” Magazine

This should help answer the inquisition issues.
Pax vobiscum,

Actually the Christian Church has been involved in Inquisitions since 287 AD. St. John of the Gospel was lovingly debating the Manachean heresy, but by 287 AD. the Church had had enough. Manacheans flourished in the first 3 centuries but Diocletian took it upon himself with imperial authority to try and bring them to an end. Their modern day descendants I believe are the Seventh Day Adventists. At least, after spending some time with them, I doscovered they had a remarkable similarity to the Manacheans, especially in their dietary laws. My point is though, all Christian Churches have always had Inquisitions, some formally declared and some not, as there have always been heretics. Wherever there is heresy, there is that which will combat it, and depending on how the Gospel is interpreted and how dangerous the heresy is, it will be violent.