Hostility toward Tradition

[kozlosap]

I was just meditating this morning on how our dear Pope Francis is following the"traditional Jesus"! His behavior since standing in the Shoes of the Fisherman has been both humble and totally in line with the manner in which our Lord taught. I pray we all may learn from this very Holy Father.

 

[Lormar]

Did you read the post? I never said I was “hostile” to the TLM. I am hostile however to people who, with little personal experience as to the history of the issues, identify themselves with an older generation of Catholics who would be horrified at what passes for traditional Catholic today.
Having spent twenty years across the Tiber, I can witness the observation that, what I will call “neo-Traditionalists”, have morphed into something almost identical to Protestant fundamentalism.
Without getting into the issues, and speaking purely from a psychological and sociological perspective, this is the conclusion I have reached.
A group whose self-description is more about what they are **against **than what they are for.
A legalistic mindset that insists on outward obedience without recognizing the inward working of the Spirit.
Picking and choosing which traditions they adhere to, in much the same fashion fundamentalists pick and choose what parts of the Bible they can emphasize.
Mistaking western culture with Christian culture.
Immature, overly emotional thought patterns. Log into FE to see that.
Separation from the “world”.
The emotional and intellectual high of belonging to an exclusive “club”, making them feel superior to others around them. Very similar to Calvinism.
Extreme negativity.
Racism.
Fascination with end times.
None of these things have anything to do with the TLM or the 2000 years of Catholic tradition.

I think true Catholic traditionalists are seeing, some perhaps for the first time, the underbelly of certain extreme movements.
And I think they are going to have to make a choice.
Do you continue down a road that ultimately will lead to separation from the Church? Or will you separate from the “neo-traditionalists” and remain loyal to the Church Christ founded.
That the gates of Hell shall never prevail.
The choice is yours.

Please do not take this post as an excuse for their behavior. It is not. I am just going to try to help the people here understand why they act the way they do.

On second thought, I will let this post that Brother Jay posted in another thread explain it for me:

All the whining, complaining, finger pointing and criticizing in the world will never get us into heaven. Actually, it obstructs our journey.** At some point, if one spends too much time on the negative, the evil spirits can use that to lead us down the path of anger, resentment, defamation of character, quarrels, and many other things that make so much noise in our heads and souls, that it becomes impossible to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.**

The basis for all of the “negativity” you witnessed is both fear and anger.

I edited this to add that the other extreme has done as much harm and has turned as many people off. It is not just the traditionals. As I believe someone here already wrote (and it may have been you ), neither extreme has done the Church much good or been very helpful.

 

[FreciaMarie]

My husband and I are musicians in a small mission church and have had much the same attitude. Dan and I have decided to do as much Latin as possible on the first Sunday of the month. The rest of the month we do what we can to keep the music reverent. This has worked well for us. We do our best to make the First Sunday a special time and the congregation is coming around to the idea that this is the “special Mass”.

To my way of thinking: It is better to love something and let that love show rather than to show dislike for something else. I have great faith that if not pushed against the wall and are allowed to “save face” people will naturally move toward beauty. It takes time and patience.

Interesting. I have noticed something very similar, within my own parish. Four years ago, we had much more happy-clappy/tambourine/guitar/folk-type music, but then we added a second musical director and that started to change. It’s been a gradual change, initially just once or twice a month, we would have more Latin, more chant, etc. As of lately, our choir utilizes the choir loft, more often than not, sings mostly in Latin, even if we sing a few verses in English, the tambourines and guitars have been replaced with a cello, a violin and an occasional harpist…but the other music hasn’t been done away with- it simply isn’t the norm in my parish anymore. It’s been such a gradual process, there don’t seem to be many criticisms of it, even though a fair number of our older parish members were initially uncomfortable with the idea of “reverting”. I think, within my parish, both needs or preferences are being met, and I’m okay with that, even though I have a hard time feeling reverent during the tambourine/guitar masses. ( It isn’t really about me- something I have to remind myself of, lol!)

At any rate- I think you are correct in saying that a gradual moving to more traditional music is effective in some parishes. It is working in mine.

 

[ljwahn]

Let’s compare one hymn by Haughn and one from the Liturgy of St. James (traditional):

Haughn
Gather us in the rich and the haughty
Gather us in the proud and the strong,
Give us a heart so meek and so lowly,
Give us the courage to enter the song.

St. James
At his feet the six-winged seraph,
cherubim, with sleepless eye,
veil their faces to the presence,
as with ceaseless voice they cry:
Alleluia, Alleluia,
Alleluia, Lord Most High

Which one seems to offer the Almighty extravagant praise? This is what we traditionalists want, generally. It doesn’t matter who wrote chant or how old it is. If someone writes a good song today, that’s great, bring it on. I love music. But so often the songs written by the St. Louis Jesuits and others in that vein are insipid and anemic. I don’t even know what that Gather Us In song means.

Now, sometimes I will sing their songs in the car. Some of them are pretty good for giving you that feeling of love for God, and in that sense, they are good. The melody, sometimes, is all it takes. Haughn’s Shepherd Me, O God is one that I could hear in German (I don’t know any German) and feel moved. But as a whole, these songs don’t offer what many of the older, traditional hymns offer in terms of catechesis and just pure adoration.

No need to get all bent out of shape about traditionalists longing for something we can’t seem to have. Pop culture has won. We’re going to be singing “The Lord of the Dance” and such for a long time.

I beg to differ… You may be singing “The Lord of the Dance”, but We will not be.

 

[ljwahn]

Exactly. I object to music where the congregation stands around singing about itself. The practices I object to are the ones the put the spotlight on the band, on the congregation, etc. The spotlight should only be on Jesus Christ. That is Tradition. It’s Tradition because our way is to love Christ above anyone and anything. It’s very simple.

Amen.

 

[JustaServant]

Please do not take this post as an excuse for their behavior. It is not. I am just going to try to help the people here understand why they act the way they do.

On second thought, I will let this post that Brother Jay posted in another thread explain it for me:

The basis for all of the “negativity” you witnessed is both fear and anger.

I edited this to add that the other extreme has done as much harm and has turned as many people off. It is not just the traditionals. As I believe someone here already wrote (and it may have been you ), neither extreme has done the Church much good or been very helpful.

Great post, and points from Brother Jay.
That’s why I said I was looking at it from a purely psychological and sociological perspective. If one can see that, then perhaps the spiritual aspect will become more magnified.
This does not mean one “must” feel comfortable with something unfamiliar. Some of it, is what you can and cannot live with. I do prefer a reverant OF without over-the-hill hippies reliving thier glory days with the Mammas and the Pappas . Would I walk out angry? No, it’s still the Mass whether it’s in Latin with Gregorian chant or with Gidget and Moondoggie . I might go to an earlier Mass without that, or I might look for another Parish. I would not say it’s the end of the world.
Fads pass away, and eventually, as people mature, things go back to the way they were before. If I recognize that, I can patiently wait until they do.
OR I can start a splinter group with angry people just like me.
I choose the former.

 

[littlenothing]

Exactly. I object to music where the congregation stands around singing about itself. The practices I object to are the ones the put the spotlight on the band, on the congregation, etc. The spotlight should only be on Jesus Christ. That is Tradition. It’s Tradition because our way is to love Christ above anyone and anything. It’s very simple.

Well said.

 

[littlenothing]

I beg to differ… You may be singing “The Lord of the Dance”, but We will not be.

Um…I didn’t mean that I would be singing it. That song has no redeeming qualities, whereas at least some of the modern stuff you can sing in the car or while working in the field. It’s no different than singing Morning Has Broken. Or Blowin In The Wind, for that matter. I meant that such music is not going to fall by the wayside in the near future.

I should also add that, though I like a good Peter, Paul and Mary song, I do believe that such music is beneath the dignity of the Mass. It isn’t beneath the dignity of me in my car, though.

 

[HelenRose]

Let’s compare one hymn by Haughn and one from the Liturgy of St. James (traditional):

…

Now, sometimes I will sing their songs in the car. Some of them are pretty good for giving you that feeling of love for God, and in that sense, they are good. The melody, sometimes, is all it takes. Haughn’s Shepherd Me, O God is one that I could hear in German (I don’t know any German) and feel moved. But as a whole, these songs don’t offer what many of the older, traditional hymns offer in terms of catechesis and just pure adoration.

No need to get all bent out of shape about traditionalists longing for something we can’t seem to have. Pop culture has won. We’re going to be singing “The Lord of the Dance” and such for a long time.

Ah yes, we are pretty proud of our 100 years of pop culture. I wonder where it will be 2,000 years from now. My guess is that it will be forgotten.

Don’t get me wrong I have no problem with this kind of music but there has been and always will be popular music. I have no doubt that 2,000 years ago silly inspid songs were sung. It is and always will be that great and beautiful music will survive.

 

[LilyM]

Exactly. I object to music where the congregation stands around singing about itself. The practices I object to are the ones the put the spotlight on the band, on the congregation, etc. The spotlight should only be on Jesus Christ. That is Tradition. It’s Tradition because our way is to love Christ above anyone and anything. It’s very simple.

There is a fair proportion of the Psalms that is basically David sitting around talking about himself (in the context of God doing things for him sometimes, but about self even so). Of course there are plenty that are not as well, to be fair.

And there are at least a proportion of post V2 hymns that are selfless - ‘Sing a New song Unto The Lord’ is one, ‘Gentle Woman’ is another, and plenty of them are based on unselfish Scripture passages such as ‘Eagles’ Wings’ and ‘Here I Am, Lord’

 

[Francoist]

If it solemnly praises and reveres Jesus Christ (or the Father or the Holy Spirit) then I am all for it. I don’t mind in what time frame it was written.

 

[ljwahn]

Well said.

I was being a little too tongue in cheek I guess. Certainly, no one here would advocate “Lord of the Dance” at Mass. I just get frustrated in that there seems to be no uniformity any more. Any kind of music can be found from one parish to another. I’m sure there are rules but the envelope seems to be pushed in some places. The Mass used to be the Mass. It was one and universal. Now there is no telling what you may run in to.

 

[Windmill]

I started a men’s Gregorian chant group 10 years ago. It has been a slow process re-introducing chant to the community, but there has been a very positive response. I credit much of this to the Catholic community being very fervent and aggressive in learning (or re-learning) their catechism and apologetics. The average Catholic here is very well-catechized, and I think it is because of that appreciation they have for doctrinal tradition that fuels their hunger for liturgical tradition. They are not afraid of traditional liturgy because they know that their studies in traditional doctrine have satisfied countless generations of saints previous. Why not trust the Church in her traditional liturgy, too?

We don’t have a EFM yet, nor do we have a Latin OFM. However, the people have a very low tolerance for goofiness because they know what is occurring at Mass: a solemn sacrifice, and they expect the liturgical environment to reflect the invisible reality of that sacrifice.

So, I am basically advocating two things here:

1. If you want more traditional music/liturgy, then take the initiative instead of complaining. This can take the form of starting a schola cantorum, taking over the training of altar servers, asking for perpetual eucharistic adoration, vespers, benediction, rosary before Mass, etc… Our parish has almost all these things in place because laymen took the initiative and made it easy for the priests to say “Yes”. Priests hate to start something and then see it fizzle out, our see it fall totally on their shoulders to maintain.
2. You must prepare the people to embrace traditional liturgy by making sure they are learning the Faith first. Once they start learning and defending the Church, they start to “own” their faith, and they start to learn that Catholicism is more than their own personal experience of it. That then opens them up to other things the Faith offers.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I started a men’s Gregorian chant group 10 years ago. It has been a slow process re-introducing chant to the community, but there has been a very positive response. I credit much of this to the Catholic community being very fervent and aggressive in learning (or re-learning) their catechism and apologetics. The average Catholic here is very well-catechized, and I think it is because of that appreciation they have for doctrinal tradition that fuels their hunger for liturgical tradition. They are not afraid of traditional liturgy because they know that their studies in traditional doctrine have satisfied countless generations of saints previous. Why not trust the Church in her traditional liturgy, too?

We don’t have a EFM yet, nor do we have a Latin OFM. However, the people have a very low tolerance for goofiness because they know what is occurring at Mass: a solemn sacrifice, and they expect the liturgical environment to reflect the invisible reality of that sacrifice.

So, I am basically advocating two things here:

1. If you want more traditional music/liturgy, then take the initiative instead of complaining. This can take the form of starting a schola cantorum, taking over the training of altar servers, asking for perpetual eucharistic adoration, vespers, benediction, rosary before Mass, etc… Our parish has almost all these things in place because laymen took the initiative and made it easy for the priests to say “Yes”. Priests hate to start something and then see it fizzle out, our see it fall totally on their shoulders to maintain.
2. You must prepare the people to embrace traditional liturgy by making sure they are learning the Faith first. Once they start learning and defending the Church, they start to “own” their faith, and they start to learn that Catholicism is more than their own personal experience of it. That then opens them up to other things the Faith offers.

In my research I found in our city an Oratory, that is a Catholic Church that is not a parish, where Traditional Mass is celebrated every day. I have gone there once and found it to be very interesting although a bit foreign to have the priest facing away from the congregation, every thing spoken in Latin, and quite a reverent ambience during the whole thing. I guess it would be something to get accustomed to. In our parish church one priest has injected some Latin into the Mass on occasion to the pleasure of some

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I started a men’s Gregorian chant group 10 years ago. It has been a slow process re-introducing chant to the community, but there has been a very positive response. I credit much of this to the Catholic community being very fervent and aggressive in learning (or re-learning) their catechism and apologetics. The average Catholic here is very well-catechized, and I think it is because of that appreciation they have for doctrinal tradition that fuels their hunger for liturgical tradition. They are not afraid of traditional liturgy because they know that their studies in traditional doctrine have satisfied countless generations of saints previous. Why not trust the Church in her traditional liturgy, too?

We don’t have a EFM yet, nor do we have a Latin OFM. However, the people have a very low tolerance for goofiness because they know what is occurring at Mass: a solemn sacrifice, and they expect the liturgical environment to reflect the invisible reality of that sacrifice.

So, I am basically advocating two things here:

1. If you want more traditional music/liturgy, then take the initiative instead of complaining. This can take the form of starting a schola cantorum, taking over the training of altar servers, asking for perpetual eucharistic adoration, vespers, benediction, rosary before Mass, etc… Our parish has almost all these things in place because laymen took the initiative and made it easy for the priests to say “Yes”. Priests hate to start something and then see it fizzle out, our see it fall totally on their shoulders to maintain.
2. You must prepare the people to embrace traditional liturgy by making sure they are learning the Faith first. Once they start learning and defending the Church, they start to “own” their faith, and they start to learn that Catholicism is more than their own personal experience of it. That then opens them up to other things the Faith offers.

Beautiful. I agree completely. If fact I started a thread awhile back on things lay people can do to help instill traditional practices in their parishes. Much of what you say here were ideas on the thread. I do agree with the idea that as people learn their faith they begin to look for ways to practice it and traditional devotional and liturgical practices follow - as hopefully do corporal and spiritual works of mercy!

 

[Cat]

Interesting. I have noticed something very similar, within my own parish. Four years ago, we had much more happy-clappy/tambourine/guitar/folk-type music, but then we added a second musical director and that started to change. It’s been a gradual change, initially just once or twice a month, we would have more Latin, more chant, etc. As of lately, our choir utilizes the choir loft, more often than not, sings mostly in Latin, even if we sing a few verses in English, the tambourines and guitars have been replaced with a cello, a violin and an occasional harpist…but the other music hasn’t been done away with- it simply isn’t the norm in my parish anymore. It’s been such a gradual process, there don’t seem to be many criticisms of it, even though a fair number of our older parish members were initially uncomfortable with the idea of “reverting”. I think, within my parish, both needs or preferences are being met, and I’m okay with that, even though I have a hard time feeling reverent during the tambourine/guitar masses. ( It isn’t really about me- something I have to remind myself of, lol!)

At any rate- I think you are correct in saying that a gradual moving to more traditional music is effective in some parishes. It is working in mine.

Why do you see the tambourine and guitar as “secular,” but the cello, violin, and harp as “sacred”?

For someone raised around mainly classical music and concert halls, the cello, violin, and harp are every bit as “secular” as the tambourine and guitar! In fact, considering the current rampant popularity of harp music at social gatherings, especially “wine and cheese-type” parties and wedding receptions, I would say that the harp is becoming the “electric guitar” of the times!

As for tambourines, they are at least mentioned in the BIble several times. You won’t find mention of violins and cellos! BTW, have you seen the extremely pretty and curvacious violinist who plays with the Celtic Women? Wow, that is one gorgeous girl, and she is definitely NOT using that violin for sacred music! In fact, I wonder that after watching her, how any male can watch anyone play the violin without getting “itchy.”

If you are into classical music, this is definitely the trend in classical music nowadays–really “hot”-looking young, in shape, men and women dressed quite seductively and moving around suggestively while they play their arias and concertos–so does this kind of secularity disqualify the various classical instruments from use in Mass music, just like rock music disqualifies the guitar as a Mass instrument?

And how about the “fiddles” used in country and bluegrass music? These “fiddles” are just “violins” by a fancier name. It’s still “secular” music, and people who are into country and bluegrass music will associate that Mass violin with their secular music. So it seems to me that the violin is definitely on the “questionable” side when it comes to its use in the Mass. Pretty scandalous!

Do you understand what I’m trying to say here? ANY instrument can seem secular or sacred, depending on what people have been accustomed to in their daily lives. An instrument becomes sacred when the Church and Christian people “reclaim” it back from its secular uses, just like we become “redeemed” when we are baptized. In this day and age of history, there is no such thing as a strictly “secular” instrument.

 

[FreciaMarie]

Why do you see the tambourine and guitar as “secular,” but the cello, violin, and harp as “sacred”?

For someone raised around mainly classical music and concert halls, the cello, violin, and harp are every bit as “secular” as the tambourine and guitar! In fact, considering the current rampant popularity of harp music at social gatherings, especially “wine and cheese-type” parties and wedding receptions, I would say that the harp is becoming the “electric guitar” of the times! As for tambourines, they are at least mentioned in the BIble several times. You won’t find mention of violins and cellos! BTW, have you seen violinist who plays with the Celtic Women? That is one gorgeous girl, and she is definitely NOT using that violin for sacred music! In fact, I wonder that after watching her, how any male can watch anyone play the violin without getting “itchy.” And how about the “fiddles” used in country and bluegrass music? These “fiddles” are just “violins” by a fancier name.

Do you understand what I’m trying to say here? ANY instrument can be secular or sacred, depending on what people have been accustomed to in their daily lives. An instrument becomes sacred when the Church and Christian people “reclaim” it back from its secular uses, just like we become “redeemed” when we are baptized.

At no point did I indicate that I think ANY instrument is “sacred”, as opposed to “secular”, nor did I indicate that I think ANY music is more “sacred” than another. As a matter of fact, what I DID indicate is that the needs of BOTH musical preferences are now being met in my parish and that although I have difficulty feeling particularly reverent during folk-type music, I understand that it isn’t about me.

You’re driving home your point to the wrong person.

 

[LegoGE1947]

At no point did I indicate that I think ANY instrument is “sacred”, as opposed to “secular”, nor did I indicate that I think ANY music is more “sacred” than another. As a matter of fact, what I DID indicate is that the needs of BOTH musical preferences are now being met in my parish and that although I have difficulty feeling particularly reverent during folk-type music, I understand that it isn’t about me.

You’re driving home your point to the wrong person.

In fact the violin, cello and harp have all been used in rock music. Marianne Faithful sang a rock song in the 60s called “With You In Mind” where there was a harp as an accompaniment, Barry White had the Love Unlimited Orchestra with violins accompanying him on his Rhythm & Blues music. And the Beatles had cellos on several of their tunes. So it is not the instrument itself but the person using it that determines “secular” or " sacred".

 

[littlenothing]

I was being a little too tongue in cheek I guess. Certainly, no one here would advocate “Lord of the Dance” at Mass. I just get frustrated in that there seems to be no uniformity any more. Any kind of music can be found from one parish to another. I’m sure there are rules but the envelope seems to be pushed in some places. The Mass used to be the Mass. It was one and universal. Now there is no telling what you may run in to.

So true. I think about this when I go to a Mass that is bilingual, as often happens where I live. I have been to Masses said in English, Latin, Vietnamese, Spanish and Italian and have been delighted with the languages, but I don’t like the bilingual ones. Everything is either done twice or the languages take turns. Really makes you think that if we just went back to the universal language of the Universal Church we would avoid so much confusion.

Same with music. I am a huge music fan and know almost any song (both good and bad) I come across at Mass. Then sometimes I go somewhere where they are singing things I have never heard of and I feel like people there must think maybe I’m not Catholic because I don’t know the songs. I can’t recall the name of the hymnal, unfortunately, but I know that Lord of the Dance was in that hymnal.

 

[MariaG]

All I know is I would welcome anything over the funeral pace organ music. However, since I have little musical talent not have tried to volunteer in that area in anyway, I really need to not complain about those who do.