Hostility towards Latin

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@JReducation: Plainchant is actually the prototype of Gregorian chant, what was used in St. Gregory’s day. Polyphony is a later addition…the addition of other voices to form polyphony (through various successive adjustments) was first done at Notre Dame in the 12th century by a man named Leonin.

I can see how the elimination of chant would make sense for St. Francis. However, I must disagree with the statement that “[St.] Francis of Assisi restored the religious life to its ancient form”. While this may be true for the makeup of the order, the development from Anchorite to Semi-Eremitic to Cenobite would, seemingly, by necessity include some of these innovations and separations between the choir and lay monk. Also, the mendicant friar, from what I have seen, was a new innovation which was attributed to him [St. Francis].
It was Pope John Paul II who actually said that St. Francis had restored religious life to its ancient form. He was referring to the absence of the distinction between ordained and non-ordained and the emphasis on the ordained forming the choir of a monastery. This was not part of religious life when it began. There were very few priests and in most communities, there were not priests. It’s the religious life, independent of the priesthood, that Pope John Paul refers to. The point that he is making is that Francis re-introduces the idea that the religious life is not dependent of Holy Orders, but Holy Orders is accidental to religious life. It was priests who joiined the religious, not the priesthood that gives religious life its definitive character.

As to the plain chant to which Francsicans refer, it’s not the same as that of St. Gregory and his time. When they say plain chant, they mean a chant that is almost like a humming. I wish that we could have sound bites on these posts, LOL. If I were to describe it, it’s like speaking with a musical intonation. It was much simpler than the plain chant that eventually evolved into full-blow Gregorian Chant. The idea was to do the very minimum just to comply with the law. Once the law was changed, it was no longer used. Today, it’s no longer in use. We have our own Missal, Lectionary and Breviary with our own rubrics. While there is a great deal of overlap between that and the Roman missal, there are also differences.

The point here is not to discuss the history of religious life. I was trying to respond to your observation that it was strange that he would ban Gregorian Chant. I also want to help others see that not everything that appears hostile or contrary is what it looks like. There can be very legitimate reasons for it.

I go back to the point that I made earlier. I would not call Francis hostile toward Gregorian Chant or hostile toward monasticism, because he banned the former and avoided the latter. In the same way, I hesitate to call hostile anyone who resists Latin. We must understand what it is that people see and why they see it that way. Just as we understand why the Franciscan men were mandated to state clear from all forms of Gregorian Chant and recognition of the clergy with our fraternities and it makes sense to us, we must also understand why others wish to stay clear of something like Latin in their daily mass.

I should add here, that we do have Latin in our daily mass as you may have seen on EWTN, but it is done very simply. If you notice, only one friar celebrates the mass and the few friars who are present are serving. Every possible means are made to avoid celebrating mass with the lay faithful, because they would not understand why we do some things. If you watch the mass on EWTN, you do not see the entire fraternity at the mass. They have a separate mass, which is much more austere. The mass that you see on EWTN was originally for the nuns when they lived at that house and the EWTN staff. Mother Angelica decided to run it over the air for shut-ins and sick people who could not make it to daily mass. It was such a good idea that it stuck long after she and the nuns moved out.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Hmmm…alright. I can see how that statement could be made. It just seems a little odd taken out of context, as the monastic order was the precedent which is referred to.
 
I’m now the superior of my community and I require that all of our student-friars study Latin, Greek, Hebrew and Spanish.
Very happy to hear that. 👍
The candidates who come to inquire are frightened when they hear this. Once we explain the benefits to them and once we hear their anxiety, there is no longer a conflict or discomfort. People plow along as best they can and really try hard to learn as much as they can. Some become quite fluent and others never become fluent. They just don’t have a gift for languages.
Not to worry. Not everyone attains the highest level but exposure and peer pressure and peer reinforcement goes a long way. Even the most illiterate in the U.S. understand a little English.

By the way, St. Francis’ feast day is next in feria secunda (Monday). Blessings of animals in my parish, tomorrow, *in sabbato *(Saturday).
 
Very happy to hear that. 👍

Not to worry. Not everyone attains the highest level but exposure and peer pressure and peer reinforcement goes a long way. Even the most illiterate in the U.S. understand a little English.

By the way, St. Francis’ feast day is next in feria secunda (Monday). Blessings of animals in my parish, tomorrow, *in sabbato *(Saturday).
Actually, the Solemnity of St. Francis begins at sunset on October 3 with the Triduum and ends at sunset Oct 4 with solemn vespers. It’s designed to mimic Easter.

Because the 3rd is a Sunday, the animals are blessed on Sat this year.

For us, It’s a solemnity and a holy day of obligation. For our parishioners it’s a solemnity, but only a Holy Day of obligation in some dioceses. This year, the Sunday is cut short. Normally, Sundays end with 2nd vespers. This year, the solemnity trumps the 2nd vespers of the Sunday. Instead of the 2nd vespers, you have the Transitus. Last year it was on Sunday. It drove the parishioners at one of our parishes crazy. They were trying to follow the mass from the missalette. It did not work. I don’t think that there is such a thing as a Franciscan missalette. I know that there is a Franciscan missal, lectionary, breviary, ordo and ritual with all of the rubrics.

It’s always very beautiful, because if there are more than one Franciscan obedience in an area, we try to get together for a common celebration. It’s cool to see the different habits: blue, brown, black, grey, white, tan and to see the veneration of the superiors. It’s the one day that you renew your vows and venerate the canonical successor to the Holy Father (Francis), not the Lord Pope. He’s the other Holy Father. 😃 However, if you have a true relic of St. Francis, you omit the veneration of the successors and you venerate the relic. It’s the only time that the relic is brought out.

There are lots of candles, incense, music, psalms, readings and of course a lot of good food too. 😛

There is always a delegation from every Franciscan obedience that goes to Assisi the week before for the Franciscan Respect Life conference that ends with a walk from Assisi to the Vatican to get the Pope’s blessing on the entire family. The only ones not allowed to attend are the Poor Clares. But they are there in spirit.

I went last year. It was impressive. There were 1200 of us from all over the world: friars, sisters, and secular Franciscans. We represented over 50 branches of the order in five languages. It was impressive to see the younger Franciscans help the older ones walk the distance from Perugia to Castel Gandolfo. The Pope was not at the Vatican yet. He was still in the mountains; but he was awesome.

But we’re still very excited. We’ve been getting ready all week. We closed down all of our minsitries this week to spend time in prayer, reading, discussions and cleaning house. Which reminds me, I have to put the finishing touches on the liturgy for the day.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I didn’t respond to you the first time because you seem to be sarcastic and hardlined…and I wasn’t in the mood for a fight with you. 🤷
You insinuated I stated the Church wants ALL Masses in Latin, I asked you to prove that, you can’t so now you state I’m sarcastic and hardlined?

If you want to avoid a fight perhaps not using fighting words would be wise.

Bearing false witness is very uncharitable and could very well be a breach of the Eighth Commandment. If it was me, I’d be offering an apology and going to Confession.
 
You insinuated I stated the Church wants ALL Masses in Latin, I asked you to prove that, you can’t so now you state I’m sarcastic and hardlined?

If you want to avoid a fight perhaps not using fighting words would be wise.

Bearing false witness is very uncharitable and could very well be a breach of the Eighth Commandment. If it was me, I’d be offering an apology and going to Confession.
I did no such thing. All I stated was that not ALL Masses have to be in Latin…in the same form that you did. If you perceive that is what I insuated then that is your problem. Please refrain from bearing false witness about it.

I ask you privately to leave me alone about this and that I would stay out of the traditional forumn and yet you appear to want to hash it out publically.

Please refrain from commenting on what commandments I may or may not have broken and I will do the same about which commandments you may or may have not broken.
 
Latin is the official language of the Church…but the Church does not say that ALL Masses must be in Latin…and that’s a FACT.
These are your words.

You stated privately you would avoid this forum, yet you couldn’t keep that word.

If you go looking for a fight it is disingenuous to play the victim card when one finds you.
 
These are your words.

You stated privately you would avoid this forum, yet you couldn’t keep that word.

If you go looking for a fight it is disingenuous to play the victim card when one finds you.
So—how does that insinate anything?

So–let me get this straight…I told you that I would avoid this forum…and then you go and post about me? And I’m not suppose to defend myself? Seriously? Who is being disingeneous? I would have not posted here but I find the need to defend myself from your accusations.

NONE THE LESS…we are taking this thread off topic. How about we let the other people who are fine folks debate the topic at hand???
 
So–let me get this straight…I told you that I would avoid this forum…and then you go and post about me?
Wrong. You said you’d avoid the forum, yet continued to post, so then I requested your proof once again. Would you like to see the time stamps?
And I’m not suppose to defend myself? Seriously? Who is being disingeneous? I would have not posted here but I find the need to defend myself from your accusations.
You made false accusations against me and haven’t made amends.
NONE THE LESS…we are taking this thread off topic. How about we let the other people who are fine folks debate the topic at hand???
Actually, you are very much on topic: hostility towards Latin and I would add Traditional Catholics.
 
Wrong. You said you’d avoid the forum, yet continued to post, so then I requested your proof once again. Would you like to see the time stamps?

Yes I would! are you refering to the other thread in which I responded to someone who posted to me? I’m trying to let my posts die down in this traditional forumn but I am going to respond to people who are responding to me. I’m only in 2…and this one I thought I was out of until you continued to harass me. I replyed to you this morning and you said I should stay off…I agreed if everyone behaves like you then I should. You posted at 2pm here in this forumn…so then I’m not supposed to respond back and just let you make accusations? Before that my last post on this thread was Sept 29th at 5-6pm :(😦

You made false accusations against me and haven’t made amends.

I have done no such thing and therefore feel no need to make amends.You however are throwing around a few yourself

Actually, you are very much on topic: hostility towards Latin and I would add Traditional Catholics.
I don’t have a hostility per se towards Latin nor Traditional Catholics as whole…athought some of them that are uncharitable…yes! Are you telling me that you have no hostility towards me?
 
However, if you have a true relic of St. Francis, you omit the veneration of the successors and you venerate the relic. It’s the only time that the relic is brought out.
One of the priests in our diocese who has in his care many relics has recently received a relic of St. Francis.

Nothing, I just thought I’d share it. It was truly awesome when he showed us the relics.

Its at the top left if I read it right:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
The discussion has shifted to “he said she said”. I’ve cleaned up the thread, somewhat. Please avoid this kind of debate or take it to PM.

Thank You

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
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