Hot Thread Time Machine

[grannymh]

Thank ye kindly! Noms a bit and takes a swig from a hip flask So what brings all of you guys here tonight?

Howdy Justin. This here is Orich (Awful Things) who can’t remember which wife is living. But he did tell me that while he’s never been exposed to much religion of any sort, he is open to what he feels in his heart is a call from God. I’m Orich’s granny-in-law. You may call me granny.

Since you are a traveling scholar, you can help us out. As you can see, this poor lout, Orich, needs some of God’s amazing grace. Those Reformation guys are still twinkles in their daddy’s’ eyes. So it is up to us Bible-only Christians to steer Orich and his like to Jesus.

Let me clarify “Bible” since most of us are illiterate. Being feminine, I am created illiterate. But my late husband Fred, may God get him into heaven sooner than later,
taught me how to read just a tad. He had some bits and pieces of old teachings done on parchment by some monks off yonder. Seems their head master was a perfectionist and if a monk spilled ink on a sheet, it was thrown out. My dear Fred’s great-great-grandfather on the paternal side would find these bits and pieces and save them as gifts from heaven.

 

[DysonSphere]

I could be wrong, but didn’t Dysonsphere miss the point altogether buy quoting from scripture?

From your comments, it seems to me that you missed my point. Look up the verses I quoted, if you don’t believe it.

My argument is simple: I am literate, you are not. I am educated, you are not. I know what God said, and you don’t. So, if you want to go to heaven, you’d better believe me.

This line of argument may not convince the world, but it worked very well for missionaries, both Protestant and Catholic, in the past. Not all missionaries, but some have taken this line, particularly those who are less than moral (even if well-meaning) and manipulate their new flock.

Bottom line: if it works on the bushmen now, it would have worked on sufficiently ignorant Europeans then. I think it actually did.

 

[Rustyxcv]

Thank you for the clarification. History isn’t my strong point, so I appreciate the clarificaton. I think your revised scenario is fair enough. Obviously, the point I’m getting at is the challenge of using 1) a sola Scriptura approach and 2) proposig worship outside of the Catholic Church. I proposed that we were heathens because I wanted to see a SS Christian try to proclaim Christ absent of the preaching of that Church.

Hey guys & gals, what a CRAZY idea for a post string. Counter-counter-factual history at its most bizarre!!! Do you all have real lives to live and actual responsibilities that you can concern yourselves with un-converting true Christians FROM the True Faith at a time when it was “the only show in town”??? LOL! Anyway, I have LOTS of important work to do today – so – I’ll bite and throw in my oar. Here we go!
– Item #1 – There is a fun internet function (I forget what it’s called) that says (proves?) that any online discussion can only go so far before bringing in Adolf Hitler and/or the Nazis. You guys are breaking the record here, I think. At post NUMBER SEVEN (!!!) Awful Things refers to the “SS” Christian [see above]. I realize that this reference was inadvertent and accidental, but there it is at #7. WOW!
– Item #2 – The Great White Throne Judgment. As goofy as yer all’s sense of history and ability in theology are, your spelling is worse. The words “judgment” and “judgmental” have no “E” in the middle, thank you. And “illiterate” has two "L"s.
– Item #3 – No one has raised the SS Christian’s biggest problem in working in the 12th century. At that point ALL Bibles were COMPLETE in the form they had been canonized in from the 4th century. (True, some had an additional 151st Psalm and some had added 3rd and 4th Esdrasses, but otherwise they were all alike in containing ALL of the books of the Bible). So, his principle tool, the modern Protestant “Reader’s Digest” condensed version of the the Bible (the RDCV – LOL!) does NOT exist . . . ANYWHERE! And is completely inconceivable, at that!
– Item #4 – Many in this exchange are subscribing to the false notion that the further back one goes, the “purer” or more authentic or “truer” one’s sense of the meaning of Christianity and of Jesus’ mission becomes. Not so! Did the disciples know who Jesus was and what He was about better BEFORE the Crucifixion? Did they have a better understanding of the Eucharist BEFORE they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Did they know the true roles of bishops and deacons better BEFORE the widow’s controversy and the councils of Jerusalem? Were they more ready to include gentiles in the Christian community BEFORE Paul’s missions and epistles? No, the Church has ALWAYS built on previous knowledge and experience. She has ALWAYS continued to grow in the knowledge and truth of Our Lord over time and with each new age. OUR God lives and works in the real world in real time (unlike the so-called “eternalist” gods of many other religions). He is ever revealing greater depths of truth and love about His own being and about our calling to charity and devotion. There is no need to “erase” or undo any of these new understandings and duties (in fact, there is mortal danger to the soul if this is carried too far).
– Item #5 – Related to this is the Protestant notion that we can “un-know” or undo what the True Church has learned and/or become over time. The tenets of the Nicene Creed are held to be true by almost ALL Christians, Protestant and Catholic and Orthodox, alike. Many are found in germinal form in the NT period, but it took the later councils to clarify them and make them explicit (and to make them the property and birthright of all born-again Christians). The SS Christian going back to the 12th century had better warn the Bishop of Rome to lock up the gates of heaven (he can do it, Jesus gave him the keys) and prevent the Blessed Virgin Mary from coming down to visit Bernadette Soubirous, Mary Margaret Alcoque, and the children of Fatima. Otherwise, there will be just too much for the 20th century Protestant to unknow to get get back to the “pure faith.”
– Item #6 – Perhaps, today the choice to join the Disciples of Christ (or some other of the MYRIAD of Protestant splinter groups) is a matter of individual spiritual conscience – and I heartily APPLAUD all who follow their conscience closely; but historically, the origins of Protestantism are political and financial (and in some cases even sexual!) in nature. More exigent matters NEEDED attention on the part of the “Reformers” and then the spiritual ducks were lined up in a row as justification. Faith by justification!
– God bless you all! – Rusty the Ridiculous​

And now I have wasted ANOTHER hour of my life which I shall never have back! Have mercy on me Lord!!!

 

[grannymh]

My argument is simple: I am literate, you are not. I am educated, you are not. I know what God said, and you don’t. So, if you want to go to heaven, you’d better believe me.

Skip the bit about being literate and educated. Recognize the dignity of each person. Speak humbly as a sinner reconciled to God. Share the good news respectfully.
This line of argument did work.

Could you be referring to the first Apostles?

 

[grannymh]

Hey guys & gals, what a CRAZY idea for a post string. Counter-counter-factual history at its most bizarre!!! Do you all have real lives to live and actual responsibilities that you can concern yourselves with un-converting true Christians FROM the True Faith at a time when it was “the only show in town”??? LOL! Anyway, I have LOTS of important work to do today – so – I’ll bite and throw in my oar. Here we go!

Thank you for your oar. I would rather be here than at my real live appointment at a lab where they use a foot long needle to draw five gallons of blood.

Briefly. According to Catholic history of that period, the True Faith was not the only show in town. Aristotelian translations were front page. Seeds of the Renaissance were being planted. Then there was Arianism always lurking in the alleys as it continues to do today. There was a “science” controversy. Plus leftovers from the early Church Councils continued to be debated.

Ah, you say. All that would not have reached the poor lout Orich. On the contrary. The same principles of “fall out” or “trickle-down effect” (which we have today) have been in play since the day Adam, the created one, scorned his Creator. Dissent, even without the reasons, is a great excuse for sleeping in on Sunday.

Your “Items” do look interesting.

By the way, I never do guess right about the spelling of judment.
I also avoid scripture duels whenever possible. However, the all caps “before” caught my eye. As I recall, Jesus was wondering if His apostles wanted to leave. I think it was the big-mouth one who answered correctly.

Blessings,
granny

Today is an unique day to be enjoyed because it exists.

 

[Rustyxcv]

Granny–
Thanks for your comments. Gave me a good chuckle!
As you saw, I was not engaging in a scripture debate, just saying that it’s silly to think that there is any advantage to trying to “turn back the clock” to find a “better” or purer Christianity. It just don’t fly.
– God bless! – Rusty, t R

 

[paul_c]

From your comments, it seems to me that you missed my point. Look up the verses I quoted, if you don’t believe it.

My argument is simple: I am literate, you are not. I am educated, you are not. I know what God said, and you don’t. So, if you want to go to heaven, you’d better believe me.

This line of argument may not convince the world, but it worked very well for missionaries, both Protestant and Catholic, in the past. Not all missionaries, but some have taken this line, particularly those who are less than moral (even if well-meaning) and manipulate their new flock.

Bottom line: if it works on the bushmen now, it would have worked on sufficiently ignorant Europeans then. I think it actually did.

I think you underestimate both the missionaries and the people they served.
Catholic missionaries didn’t win souls by lying to less educated people. That is a very cynical view

If you go back to the Apostles, they were able to prove that Jesus was the messiah through actual miracles. Fast forward a few years, and the proof that the Gospel was true lay in the fact that Christians were willing to die for their faith while showing love of others.
Fast forward to the present, and you will find that effective missionaries witness more with their actions than their words. Two of my father’s cousins are missionary sisters in Africa. They witness through helping the people with their needs for education, food and medical attention. The people wonder why they do this for free. They explain that they do it out of love as taught by Jesus Christ. The simple demonstration of love and compassion appeals to a lot of people and they decide that they want to understand more about it. So they tell them about Jesus life and teachings- about the basic doctrines and the sacraments. Some are moved by this and convert to Catholicism. Others don’t.

 

[Awful_Things]

Granny–
Thanks for your comments. Gave me a good chuckle!
As you saw, I was not engaging in a scripture debate, just saying that it’s silly to think that there is any advantage to trying to “turn back the clock” to find a “better” or purer Christianity. It just don’t fly.
– God bless! – Rusty, t R

While I also enjoyed your post, I think you misunderstand the thread. It isn’t an attempt to turn back the clock to a simpler and purer Christianity, but to turn back the clock to before the printing press, when most of the SS (Nazi … uh, sure) Christians would have to rethink their approach of encouraging others to just read the plain words of Scripture.

 

[grannymh]

Granny–
Thanks for your comments. Gave me a good chuckle!
As you saw, I was not engaging in a scripture debate, just saying that it’s silly to think that there is any advantage to trying to “turn back the clock” to find a “better” or purer Christianity. It just don’t fly.
– God bless! – Rusty, t R

Glad to return the favor of a good chuckle.

Now it is time for me to become a serious granny-in-law to that knucklehead Orich.

One thing I am learning is that sola scriptura can really be difficult when there is no charismatic leadership or definite authority near by.

 

[Soulewolf]

Howdy Justin. This here is Orich (Awful Things) who can’t remember which wife is living. But he did tell me that while he’s never been exposed to much religion of any sort, he is open to what he feels in his heart is a call from God. I’m Orich’s granny-in-law. You may call me granny.

Since you are a traveling scholar, you can help us out. As you can see, this poor lout, Orich, needs some of God’s amazing grace. Those Reformation guys are still twinkles in their daddy’s’ eyes. So it is up to us Bible-only Christians to steer Orich and his like to Jesus.

Let me clarify “Bible” since most of us are illiterate. Being feminine, I am created illiterate. But my late husband Fred, may God get him into heaven sooner than later,
taught me how to read just a tad. He had some bits and pieces of old teachings done on parchment by some monks off yonder. Seems their head master was a perfectionist and if a monk spilled ink on a sheet, it was thrown out. My dear Fred’s great-great-grandfather on the paternal side would find these bits and pieces and save them as gifts from heaven.

chuckles a bit well i wouldn’t call me a christian by any means ma’am. Most of my religious exposure comes from scattered groups, a lot of them like to name themselves “Buddhists” or “Taoists”, though my philosophical exposure ranges from those who follow your “Jesus” to more non religious metaphysics and moral philosophy. All if it is purely fascinating to me and i always love hearing about why people follow their beliefs and why they think i should follow theirs as well.
chuckles again and takes another bite of rabbit and another swig from his hip flask filled with what looks like water Though don’t assume that i wont ask questions eh? he gazes a bit up at the stars This place is filled with way too much wonder to not ask questions.

 

[grannymh]

chuckles a bit well i wouldn’t call me a christian by any means ma’am. Most of my religious exposure comes from scattered groups, a lot of them like to name themselves “Buddhists” or “Taoists”, though my philosophical exposure ranges from those who follow your “Jesus” to more non religious metaphysics and moral philosophy. All if it is purely fascinating to me and i always love hearing about why people follow their beliefs and why they think i should follow theirs as well.
chuckles again and takes another bite of rabbit and another swig from his hip flask filled with what looks like water Though don’t assume that i wont ask questions eh? he gazes a bit up at the stars This place is filled with way too much wonder to not ask questions.

You are an interesting sort, Justin. But I don’t know about Buddhists or Taoists. Are they really people? Because Jesus is for everybody. He died for all. All people. Does that mean I have to love my neighbor even if he is different from me? My late husband Fred, may he find that wedding garment so he can get into the banquet of heaven, held his nose so high, it crossed his hair line. Those he didn’t know, he considered beneath his level. Those he did know, never met his expectations. If he ever gets through those pearly gates, he is going to be really surprised at who is there ahead of him.

But this is enough of that. Do look at those stars. There was a woman here some moons ago, who would look up at the stars and down at the coin in a customer’s hand and predict that person’s future. I really thought she was fooling. I have a hunch that we are in charge of our own future. What say you Justin to that? How can someone predict once saved, always saved? Look at Orich, my grandson-in-law. I’m not even sure if he is once saved.

Yes, I know you would like to hear my beliefs. And I should be encouraging you to just read the plain words of Scripture. But like you, I find way too much wonder in the stars.

Are the stars God’s tears?

 

[spockrates]

While I also enjoyed your post, I think you misunderstand the thread. It isn’t an attempt to turn back the clock to a simpler and purer Christianity, but to turn back the clock to before the printing press, when most of the SS (Nazi … uh, sure) Christians would have to rethink their approach of encouraging others to just read the plain words of Scripture.

Awful:

I like to plan before I take a trip and decide ahead of time where I’m going to go and who I’m going to see. So help me out here, please: Where would I find these non-Catholic Christians in the 13th century AD? What is the name of one of one of their great pastors or evangelists or theologians? Let me know this great man’s name and where he lived so that I might meet him and ask him questions when I take this blast to the past!

 

[Awful_Things]

Awful:

I like to plan before I take a trip and decide ahead of time where I’m going to go and who I’m going to see. So help me out here, please: Where would I find these non-Catholic Christians in the 13th century AD? What is the name of one of one of their great pastors or evangelists or theologians? Let me know this great man’s name and where he lived so that I might meet him and ask him questions when I take this blast to the past!

spockrates,

Please reread my posts and see if that clarifies for you. I am making your point. My point is that Protestant Christianity could not have existed at that time, at least as it is known now. My point is that there were no great pastors, evangelists, or theologians for SS Christianity.

This is why, to get some Protestants there, we had to send them back with a time machine and see how well the faith survives.

For the record, there were non-Catholic Christians then - they were members of the Orthodox church, but that isn’t the focus of this thread.

 

[spockrates]

spockrates,

Please reread my posts and see if that clarifies for you. I am making your point. My point is that Protestant Christianity could not have existed at that time, at least as it is known now. My point is that there were no great pastors, evangelists, or theologians for SS Christianity.

This is why, to get some Protestants there, we had to send them back with a time machine and see how well the faith survives.

For the record, there were non-Catholic Christians then - they were members of the Orthodox church, but that isn’t the focus of this thread.

LOL!



I see. Maybe starting a similar discussion in the other religions forum would get more Protestants to respond?

When I was Evangelical, I used to quote Augustine a lot. Then some thoughtful Catholics here respectfully pointed out that the saint believed in the Real Presence.

 

[Awful_Things]

LOL!



I see. Maybe starting a similar discussion in the other religions forum would get more Protestants to respond?

When I was Evangelical, I used to quote Augustine a lot. Then some thoughtful Catholics here respectfully pointed out that the saint believed in the Real Presence.

As Granna, who claims to be my mother-in-law (though I’ve never met her before she wandered up to our camp and passed something called a “cass a roll” around) once said:

One thing I am learning is that sola scriptura can really be difficult when there is no charismatic leadership or definite authority near by.

 

[Soulewolf]

You are an interesting sort, Justin. But I don’t know about Buddhists or Taoists. Are they really people? Because Jesus is for everybody. He died for all. All people. Does that mean I have to love my neighbor even if he is different from me? My late husband Fred, may he find that wedding garment so he can get into the banquet of heaven, held his nose so high, it crossed his hair line. Those he didn’t know, he considered beneath his level. Those he did know, never met his expectations. If he ever gets through those pearly gates, he is going to be really surprised at who is there ahead of him.

But this is enough of that. Do look at those stars. There was a woman here some moons ago, who would look up at the stars and down at the coin in a customer’s hand and predict that person’s future. I really thought she was fooling. I have a hunch that we are in charge of our own future. What say you Justin to that? How can someone predict once saved, always saved? Look at Orich, my grandson-in-law. I’m not even sure if he is once saved.

Yes, I know you would like to hear my beliefs. And I should be encouraging you to just read the plain words of Scripture. But like you, I find way too much wonder in the stars.

Are the stars God’s tears?

Chuckles again, seeming to be a hearty man and he takes another swig from his flask I dont know if i can answer that question for you ma’am, or even if God can have tears or eyes for them to flow from. Though i guess it all depends on your own personal belief in who and what God is.

As for our future? Well… I really dont know. There is definitely a semblance of choice in the way we go about the world. Though maybe its an illusion. Or maybe this woman creates self fulfilling prophecies where the people she tells dwells on these ideas and seek out meaning in the words through every day experiences. Either way, if she is happy doing what she does, and the people she predicts these futures for are happy hearing them, then should they change it?

 

[duffyk4]

Perhaps another, even more adventurous time warp should be instituted. How about the year 278, before the canon was even produced?

 

[Awful_Things]

Perhaps another, even more adventurous time warp should be instituted. How about the year 278, before the canon was even produced?

I considered that as a follow up. Excellent idea.

 

[Major_Tom]

The purpose of this thread is to ask any Bible-only Christians to transport themselves back to this merry little group through the Hot Thread Time Machine and help steer us to Christ, but away from the trappings of the “corrupt Catholic Church”, with all of its traditions and man-made rules.

Thanks for the invite to the campfire! Hopefully, the logs you’re all sitting on can accommodate one more bottom.

Since you brought up trappings and corruptions, good sir, I’d love to hear your take on your more recent pope, Innocent IV. I hear he was a rampant nepotist, worse than any that came before him. And abused the passing around of benefices for his own gain. Would that qualify as a ‘trapping’ or ‘corruption’?

 

[Major_Tom]

The faithful would go to confession, attend Mass, receive the Most Holy Eucharist and be living witnesses to the shared faith in Christ, having been spiritually feed they would be living examples to this group of heathens, they (the Christians) would possess a sublime inward peace that any heathen would question at least, and desire for themselves at best, this would open the dialogue of faith and the sacramental lifestyle that created and continues to support the faithful to this very day.

Skip the bit about being literate and educated. Recognize the dignity of each person. Speak humbly as a sinner reconciled to God. Share the good news respectfully.
This line of argument did work.

Lovely words, truly.

As a contrast, however, let’s consider the aforementioned Pope Innocent IV, who wrote a bull sanctioning the use of torture to extract confessions from heretics. The chasm between those two examples is quite wide.