How a suicide bomber thinks

[porkscratchings]

Untrue. Surah 9:29

Qatiloo all those who do not believe in Allah or the last day… That is the Jihad al asghar. It does not say only jihad against religious or political oppression. I think you have fallen for the peaceful surah 2 verse.

Nope I haven’t – I’ve read whole Koran, spoken to muslims and read commentaries on various surahs, and used these to get an overall impression of the meaning of the various jihads in muslim belief. Not by using the surah out of context of what islam teaches. Surah 9.29 is no different from God smiting the unbelievers/godless in the book of revelation. Or the OT which makes it ok for Jews to commit genocide in order to take Canaan. It would be a tad extreme to assume that all Christians or all Jews automatically accept these quotes as permission to kill. So why would Christian reading the Koran assume that all muslims would go on a rampage against unbelievers?
Rodrigo Bivar:

That is the definition of tu quoque. Please look it up.

I haven’t demonstrated the hypocrisy of my position as u have for urs – maybe u should look it up.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Sure Jesus promised heaven but did he promise heaven to those who kill? I think not.

Christians thru the centuries would disagree – the crusaders of the past would definitely disagree. The idea that certain groups would go to heaven even for plunder, rape and genocide was accepted in Christianity.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Where are the anti-semitic verses in the NT?

1 Thes 2:14-16, John 8:41-47, Acts 7:51-53, Acts 13:45-51, Titus 1:10-14, Revelation 2:9-10, Rev 3:9. there’s more, but i’m sure u get the drift.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Why not? Peace is peace. There is such a thing as acceptance of peace. Even Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel. Why can’t the Palestinians who have no right to the Holy Land anyway?

Peace is not peace without dignity. Peace thru imposition of loss of land, humiliation and slavery stores up resentment – e.g, the humiliating terms imposed on Prussia after WW1 was an important factor in the rise of Hitler in Germany.

The Palestinians lived in the holy land for over a 1000 years until the allies forced them out to create Israel. The Jews wiped out the Canaanites to take their land, remaining it Israel. The Jews were in turn defeated by the Babylonians and taken into captivity themselves. If the Jews and then Christians claim rights to the Holy Land based on killing the pple who lived on it before they came along, then do they deserve the Holy Land anymore than the Palestinians? Or do u define a right to land based on having the bigger army and wiping out the other side?
Rodrigo Bivar:

So what if Hindus kill non-believers? It’s tu quoque.

Nope - it shows that all religions are as bad as one another; therefore religion has no place in civilised society.
Rodrigo Bivar:

The 80 million Hindus killed is generally accepted historical estimate. You know before the Muslims came and killed Hindus, there were zero, yes zero, Muslims in India and so it should be.

If you have any estimate of the Hindu killing non-believers, now is the time to produce the evidence.

Generally accepted estimate – estimated by who? Muslim-hating fascists? 62 million pple died in WW2. Do u expect me to believe that muslims - a minority group in India are capable of wiping out more Hindus than the global death toll of WW2?? Does anyone need evidence to see how absurd that is?

As for the idea that there should be zero Muslims in India – compare ur views to the extremist Islamist opinion that there should be zero Christians in Muslim lands. Tu quoque, or to quote from Dr Evil in the 1st Austin Powers movie: ‘ We r not so unalike, u and I’.

The fact is, these pple scare u. Why?

 

[cestusdei]

I’ve read the quran too. It is full of calls to violence that are being answered right now. As it is said, “not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are Muslim.” When you see them produce childrens programs about kids blowing themselves up to kill Jews…well there is a sickness there.

 

[porkscratchings]

I’ve read the quran too. It is full of calls to violence that are being answered right now. As it is said, “not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are Muslim.” When you see them produce childrens programs about kids blowing themselves up to kill Jews…well there is a sickness there.

When i read the Bible for the first time, i was shocked at the violence in its pages. It too is full of calls to violence. U can hardly accuse Islam when u’ve got the same problem.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Nope I haven’t – I’ve read whole Koran, spoken to muslims and read commentaries on various surahs, and used these to get an overall impression of the meaning of the various jihads in muslim belief. Not by using the surah out of context of what islam teaches. Surah 9.29 is no different from God smiting the unbelievers/godless in the book of revelation. Or the OT which makes it ok for Jews to commit genocide in order to take Canaan. It would be a tad extreme to assume that all Christians or all Jews automatically accept these quotes as permission to kill. So why would Christian reading the Koran assume that all muslims would go on a rampage against unbelievers?

Wrong.

1. God smiting people is not the same as Allah commanding Muslims to qatiloo (fight/kill/massacre) the infidels or oppress them.
2. Jews killing Canaanites is descriptive rather than prescriptive. Please make sure you know the difference.

porkscratchings:

I haven’t demonstrated the hypocrisy of my position as u have for urs – maybe u should look it up.

How have I been hypocritical? You have committed tu quoque.

porkscratchings:

Christians thru the centuries would disagree – the crusaders of the past would definitely disagree. The idea that certain groups would go to heaven even for plunder, rape and genocide was accepted in Christianity.

Where is the scriptural basis for this belief that killing infidels would get rewards in heaven?

Did Jesus say this?

porkscratchings:

1 Thes 2:14-16, John 8:41-47, Acts 7:51-53, Acts 13:45-51, Titus 1:10-14, Revelation 2:9-10, Rev 3:9. there’s more, but i’m sure u get the drift.

Not the same. Where did Jesus say to persecute/kill the Jews? Can you show me in those verses above?

porkscratchings:

Peace is not peace without dignity. Peace thru imposition of loss of land, humiliation and slavery stores up resentment – e.g, the humiliating terms imposed on Prussia after WW1 was an important factor in the rise of Hitler in Germany.

So is there any dignity for the Copts in Egypt? Or the Hindus under the Moghuls? Your hypocrisy is showing again. It is okay for you to persecute dhimmis but then you talk about dignity for yourself?

porkscratchings:

The Palestinians lived in the holy land for over a 1000 years until the allies forced them out to create Israel. The Jews wiped out the Canaanites to take their land, remaining it Israel. The Jews were in turn defeated by the Babylonians and taken into captivity themselves. If the Jews and then Christians claim rights to the Holy Land based on killing the pple who lived on it before they came along, then do they deserve the Holy Land anymore than the Palestinians? Or do u define a right to land based on having the bigger army and wiping out the other side?

Wrong.

1. The Palestinian Arabs are not the Philistines who only lived in a small strip of coastal land around 5 towns. So even if we were to accept that the Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the Philistines, why claim the whole of Israel? Why claim the West Bank and Gaza which were not the lands of the ancient Philistines?
2. The Canaanites were wiped out as you say – so how can the Palestinian Arabs be their descendants?

You fell for the Muslim propaganda – the so-called Palestinian Arabs have little or no connection to the land except through migration or conquest. In fact, the name Palestine would have been lost in history if not for the Romans who arbitrarily used the term Syria-Palestine as a name of their middle east province.

This ‘Palestine’ has nothing to do with the Philistines but was a Roman invention.

cont.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

porkscratchings:

Nope - it shows that all religions are as bad as one another; therefore religion has no place in civilised society.

This shows you are illogical. Don’t tell me pacifist religions like Jainism and Buddhism is as bad as Islam who commands its adherents to persecute or kill disbelievers.

porkscratchings:

Generally accepted estimate – estimated by who? Muslim-hating fascists? 62 million pple died in WW2. Do u expect me to believe that muslims - a minority group in India are capable of wiping out more Hindus than the global death toll of WW2?? Does anyone need evidence to see how absurd that is?

Why not? They had centuries to do it. Please read up on history before commenting.

porkscratchings:

As for the idea that there should be zero Muslims in India – compare ur views to the extremist Islamist opinion that there should be zero Christians in Muslim lands. Tu quoque, or to quote from Dr Evil in the 1st Austin Powers movie: ‘ We r not so unalike, u and I’.

There should be zero Muslims in India because they were invaders and stole the land.

The Middle East was Christian land before the Muslims came and stole it.

So your analogy is false – you confuse the thief and the victim. The only Muslim land is Arabia – and that is where they belong – everywhere else they stole from the rightful owners.

porkscratchings:

The fact is, these pple scare u. Why?

Perhaps its because I understand the cruel and vicious nature of Islam.

For instance:

Kill/massacre those who do not believe in Allah, and if they are the People of the Book persecute them.

Tell those Indians and Armenians and Copts and Persians who lost their lives to the Muslims followed the teachings of Muhammad that Islam is nothing to be scared of.

 

[porkscratchings]

Rodrigo Bivar:

1. God smiting people is not the same as Allah commanding Muslims to qatiloo (fight/kill/massacre) the infidels or oppress them.

God not only smites pple but instructs his followers on how to wipe out the opposition/unbeliever. So that ‘s not the same then?
Rodrigo Bivar:

1. Jews killing Canaanites is descriptive rather than prescriptive. Please make sure you know the difference.

The prescription is in the description. The instruction is there too.
Rodrigo Bivar:

How have I been hypocritical? You have committed tu quoque.

By sharing the same intolerance and hatred of non-believers as the muslims u despise. I do not commit hypocrisy by pointing this out to u.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Where is the scriptural basis for this belief that killing infidels would get rewards in heaven?

R u now telling u guys r in favour of sola scriptura? Or that u want to avoid the admission that both scripture and Catholic teaching once sanction the pillage, rape and murder of unbelievers?
Rodrigo Bivar:

Did Jesus say this?

Jesus expressed anti-semitism, as did the writers of the NT. 2,000 yrs of anti-semitism followed. U can’t say those Christians weren’t following the NT when they actually express the anti-semitism thru acts of violence.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Not the same. Where did Jesus say to persecute/kill the Jews? Can you show me in those verses above?

Hate is followed by action. As Jesus is the son of God he should be able to look at the wealth of human experience and know the consequences of his words would have on his followers. And not say what he said.
Rodrigo Bivar:

So is there any dignity for the Copts in Egypt? Or the Hindus under the Moghuls? Your hypocrisy is showing again. It is okay for you to persecute dhimmis but then you talk about dignity for yourself?

I am not discussing dignity for myself but for the pple u vilify. U bringing up the Copts and Hindus as victims is merely a pathetic attempt to evade admitting any humanity for those u so clearly despise. Everyone’s victimisation is valid – but not if they r muslim – then it doesn’t count at all. I see ur logic at work.
Rodrigo Bivar:

The Palestinian Arabs are not the Philistines who only lived in a small strip of coastal land around 5 towns. So even if we were to accept that the Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the Philistines, why claim the whole of Israel? Why claim the West Bank and Gaza which were not the lands of the ancient Philistines?

The philistines is not the issue. The issue is whether Israel can use God to justify genocide, and then say the land is theirs forever when they have taken it from someone else. The issue is whether the Palestinians, who’ve lived in the land for 1,000 yrs should be forced out. It’s like the US settlers vs the Native American Indians.
Rodrigo Bivar:

The Canaanites were wiped out as you say – so how can the Palestinian Arabs be their descendants?

I am not talking about inheriting land rights by descent – that wasn’t even the topic of discussion. It’s about the legitimacy of getting land by genocide, and being allow to keep it when u haven’t even lived there for 1,000 yrs.
Rodrigo Bivar:

You fell for the Muslim propaganda – the so-called Palestinian Arabs have little or no connection to the land except through migration or conquest. In fact, the name Palestine would have been lost in history if not for the Romans who arbitrarily used the term Syria-Palestine as a name of their middle east province.

Regardless, the Jews have no rights to the land since they took it by conquest and murder. Or r u going to say conquest = ownership?

to be cont.

 

[Maryam]

Whenever a thread like this comes up I post parts of a post I had made some time ago. I am not justifying suicide bombing and all killing is wrong… but something has to be seriously wrong when you have someone lose all hope and reason resort to strapping on a bomb to kill others.

Many will say Israel (and I mean its army and government… not its people) is only defending itself without even looking at the history of the creation of the state of Israel and the effects this has had on the Palestinian people.

There are many** ISRAELI JEWS who are also against what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people**…** Are these Israeli’s who refuse to be blind to the truth also terrorists?** When your day to day life existence is one trauma after another… You are a walking open wound being picked at over and over. In America when a wife is beaten for years by her husband and suffers from what is called “Battered Wives Syndrome” kills her husband everyone has sympathy for her… but God forbid a Palestinian who has suffered daily trauma should crack and lash out… Just a terrorist animal, right? Count your blessings you live in America and have FREEDOM. I know I do. Not everyone lives a freedom-filled life with therapists or counseling just a telephone book call away.

Below is an excerpt of a talk given by Nurit Peled Elhanan. She is a lecturer in Hebrew University whose 13 year old daughter “Smadar” was killed in a suicide bombing. She became a peace activist afterwards seeking to educate the world about the truth regarding Israel and the horror of suicide bombings. Here is an excerpt of her story which was pubished in “The Atlanta Constitution in 1997” :
This mother is a Professor at a Hebrew University. She blames the Israeli government for her daughter’s death, not the Palestinians. She said “ISRAEL BREEDS THE TERRORISTS, THEY START THEM, THEY FERTILIZE THEM BY INVADING AND DESTROYING THEIR PROPERTY, STARVING THEM, HUMILIATING THEM, OPPRESSING THEM AND WHEN YOU PUT PEOPLE IN HOLDING PENS AND FORCE THEM TO GROW UP IN GARBAGE,
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS.” She further stated, “WE ARE THE STRONG ONES, WE HAVE THE AIR FORCE AND THE ARMY.”

This brave mother invited Palestinians to her daughter’s funeral. She is a relative of the late General Mattitiyahu Peled. He helped form the Israeli Defense Forces, but resigned in 1969, upset that Israel was not trying to
make peace with the Palestinians. >>>>>>

Nurit today works as a peace activist.

Here are some links to look over:

Courage to Refuse
seruv.org.il/english/default.asp

This group are Israeli military men/women who refuse to serve because of the injustices they see being perpetrated by the Israeli military against Palestinians. Here you can read short profiles along with pics of those who refuse to served called “Refusniks”, many of which are serving time in jail.

Jews for Justice wrote a book “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict”
cactus48.com/truth.html

Not In My Name
notinmyname.org/

A Jewish group which seeks peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians. They seek to show that there are many Jew’s who do not want in ‘their name’ the continued oppression of the Palestinian people.

Ta’ayush (Joint Arab-Jewish Partnership)
taayush.tripod.com/index-temp2.html

Its a group of Israeli’s and Palestinians for peace. Wealth of information on the “Separation Wall” or Apartheid Wall as they call it, that has been under construction.

God bless all

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

porkscratchings:

God not only smites pple but instructs his followers on how to wipe out the opposition/unbeliever. So that ‘s not the same then?

The prescription is in the description. The instruction is there too. /quote]
Please find out the difference between prescription and description. When the Bible was written the events had already occurred so they were descriptive. When the Quran was written Muhammad told his followers to continue to kill and oppress disbelievers – that is prescriptive.

porkscratchings:

By sharing the same intolerance and hatred of non-believers as the muslims u despise. I do not commit hypocrisy by pointing this out to u.

I don’t advocate killing or persecuting Muslims. That is the difference. I am fighting against the persecuting and murder by the Muslims against non-Muslims.

You failed to see the difference between someone who fights injustice and someone who commits injustice. I am the former, not the latter. You, on the other hand, are sitting on the sidelines cheering on or making excuses for the latter on.

porkscratchings:

R u now telling u guys r in favour of sola scriptura? Or that u want to avoid the admission that both scripture and Catholic teaching once sanction the pillage, rape and murder of unbelievers?

I’m asking you to tell us where Jesus said to kill or persecute those who do not believe in him. It’s a simple request that you continually fail to address.

porkscratchings:

Jesus expressed anti-semitism, as did the writers of the NT. 2,000 yrs of anti-semitism followed. U can’t say those Christians weren’t following the NT when they actually express the anti-semitism thru acts of violence.

Rot. Jesus was a Jew and so was his mother and almost all his supporters at the time. You fail to see how Jesus railing against the Jews who have lost their ways with actual prescription to kill or oppress them. Calling someone an evildoer for not following God’s Laws is not the same as calling for their murder.

porkscratchings:

Hate is followed by action. As Jesus is the son of God he should be able to look at the wealth of human experience and know the consequences of his words would have on his followers. And not say what he said.

What rot. Jesus never told his followers to kill or oppress anyone and you know it. That is why you cannot show us the verse that has him saying this.

porkscratchings:

I am not discussing dignity for myself but for the pple u vilify. U bringing up the Copts and Hindus as victims is merely a pathetic attempt to evade admitting any humanity for those u so clearly despise. Everyone’s victimisation is valid – but not if they r muslim – then it doesn’t count at all. I see ur logic at work.

I merely pointed out your hypocrisy and hence the fallacy of your position. Since when has dignity to do with peace? It is something you made up.

porkscratchings:

The philistines is not the issue. The issue is whether Israel can use God to justify genocide, and then say the land is theirs forever when they have taken it from someone else. The issue is whether the Palestinians, who’ve lived in the land for 1,000 yrs should be forced out. It’s like the US settlers vs the Native American Indians.

So Muslims can invoke their Allah to justify conquering lands, do they?

So what if the so-called Palestinian Arabs had lived in Israel for 1000 years. The Jews lived on that same piece of land for 2000 years before that. You think you have the right to conquer land from other people but others don’t have the right to do the same?

Let us suppose that the Muslims had the right to conquer land. The Arabs conquered the Holy Land – and displaced the Jews and Christians. Okay, let us accept that.

But in 1940s the Jews conquered that land back. So tough cheese, Muslim. Too bad for you.

BTW: The Palestinian Arabs only 411 thousand in 1860. When the Jews came, they brought prosperity and the Arabs swarmed in from surrounding countries and called themselves Palestinians. palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story559.html#Table%201

As has been pointed out – most of the so-called Palestinian Arabs are sham Palestinians. They have no link to the land. For example, Yasser Arafat, the numero uno Palestinian Arab was born and bred in Egypt.

cont.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

porkscratchings:

I am not talking about inheriting land rights by descent – that wasn’t even the topic of discussion. It’s about the legitimacy of getting land by genocide, and being allow to keep it when u haven’t even lived there for 1,000 yrs.

So the Muslims did not commit genocide, did they, when they took the lands they conquered? Try asking yourself what happened to the Jews of Arabia?

porkscratchings:

Regardless, the Jews have no rights to the land since they took it by conquest and murder. Or r u going to say conquest = ownership?

So the Muslims have the right to the land by conquest and murder, eh? Why don’t you apply your standard to the Muslims? Tell them to go back to Arabia.

 

[cestusdei]

porks, when was the last time a group of franciscan nuns seized an airplane and flew it into a building while shouting “praise Jesus”?

 

[porkscratchings]

porkscratchings:

God not only smites pple but instructs his followers on how to wipe out the opposition/unbeliever. So that ‘s not the same then?

The prescription is in the description. The instruction is there too. /quote]
Please find out the difference between prescription and description. When the Bible was written the events had already occurred so they were descriptive. When the Quran was written Muhammad told his followers to continue to kill and oppress disbelievers – that is prescriptive.

Nope - Regardless of the events already occurred, the Bible is not taken to be merely history by its believers but God’s infallible words, true for all time. The prescription is in the description. The Jews, and following them, the Christians base their right of ownership of the Holy Lands thru history - on the Bible’s prescription that God gave the land to Israel. Christians based their claim on supersuccession.
Rodrigo Bivar:

I don’t advocate killing or persecuting Muslims. That is the difference. I am fighting against the persecuting and murder by the Muslims against non-Muslims.

Words reflect what is in the heart. If what is in the heart is hate and contempt, then the words will reflect it. While making ur point u made effort to demonise all muslims as terrorists or potential terrorists, the Koran as an instruction manual of terrorism against unbelievers. Where I’m from, that equates to incitement to hatred and possible violence against a group of pple.
Rodrigo Bivar:

You failed to see the difference between someone who fights injustice and someone who commits injustice. I am the former, not the latter. You, on the other hand, are sitting on the sidelines cheering on or making excuses for the latter on.

U commit injustice while claiming to defend it. I am merely pointing this out. Justice involve fair treatment - I hardly think depicting all or most muslims in such negative terms is fighting injustice.
Rodrigo Bivar:

I’m asking you to tell us where Jesus said to kill or persecute those who do not believe in him. It’s a simple request that you continually fail to address.

I have not failed to address it. U who is ignorant of the sorry history of ur own faith - that multitudes of Christians throughout history have interpreted the Bible in just the way I have described, and acted upon it. U fail to see the link because u don’t want to see it. That Christianity, a religion of peace, can commit such evil, justifying it as acts of good.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Rot. Jesus was a Jew and so was his mother and almost all his supporters at the time. You fail to see how Jesus railing against the Jews who have lost their ways with actual prescription to kill or oppress them. Calling someone an evildoer for not following God’s Laws is not the same as calling for their murder.

Christian history says different. And I believe history more than I believe u.
Rodrigo Bivar:

What rot. Jesus never told his followers to kill or oppress anyone and you know it. That is why you cannot show us the verse that has him saying this.

Sorry, I don’t know it. For his followers, what he did say was sufficient for them to persecute and kill Jews for almost 2,000 years.

I
Rodrigo Bivar:

merely pointed out your hypocrisy and hence the fallacy of your position. Since when has dignity to do with peace? It is something you made up.

Dignity is self-worth. How is removing that anything to do with peace? There is no freedom without dignity. And no peace. There is not hyprocrisy in what I said, and no fallacy.
Rodrigo Bivar:

So Muslims can invoke their Allah to justify conquering lands, do they?

The muslims got their Allah from ur Yahweh. U don’t have a problem with the offensive parts of the Bible, so u can’t complain about the muslims doing the same.Hypocrisy,anyone?
Rodrigo Bivar:

So what if the so-called Palestinian Arabs had lived in Israel for 1000 years. The Jews lived on that same piece of land for 2000 years before that. You think you have the right to conquer land from other people but others don’t have the right to do the same?

The israelites started it first. It’s not about the right to do something but whether genocide makes ownership of land legit. And whether western govt has the right to move pple of land that is not theirs to sell or give, and hand this land to a group of folks who’ve never lived there for a 1,000 yrs. And for this group of folks to claim land using their holy text which they wrote themselves. I can’t see any modern court of any civilised country allowing some tycoon to take a piece of land by force and then for his descendents to claim they own it using documents they wrote themselves.

cont…

 

[porkscratchings]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Let us suppose that the Muslims had the right to conquer land. The Arabs conquered the Holy Land – and displaced the Jews and Christians. Okay, let us accept that.

But in 1940s the Jews conquered that land back. So tough cheese, Muslim. Too bad for you.

The jews did not do any conquering - and the land weren’t theirs to claim back. If tough cheese to muslims is ur idea of justice, don’t ever think about being a judge, ok? U ain’t gotta clue.
Rodrigo Bivar:

BTW: The Palestinian Arabs only 411 thousand in 1860. When the Jews came, they brought prosperity and the Arabs swarmed in from surrounding countries and called themselves Palestinians. palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story559.html#Table%201

I like ur description ‘swarmed’ as if the Arabs r vermin. And linking ‘prosperity’ to those u favour. U really should read Hitler’s speeches - he described the Jews the same way u just described the Arabs: that the Jews were a threat to prosperity and national strength built by the German pple.
Rodrigo Bivar:

most of the so-called Palestinian Arabs are sham Palestinians. They have no link to the land. For example, Yasser Arafat, the numero uno Palestinian Arab was born and bred in Egypt.

If u were displaced from ur own country,u’ll be born and bred elsewhere. To then claim that displaced persons have no right to the nationality and land of their forefathers is evidence of ur poor concept of justice.

 

[porkscratchings]

Rodrigo Bivar:

This shows you are illogical. Don’t tell me pacifist religions like Jainism and Buddhism is as bad as Islam who commands its adherents to persecute or kill disbelievers.

My huge collection of Kung Fu movies says different - ever heard of shaolin monks? Pacifists they were not. The manchus closed them down because they were using temples to amass an anti-gov army and stockpile weapons. Buddhist fundamentalism is alive and well in Sri Lanka and Thailand, the target of their attacks being Hindus and Muslims. Jainism while pacifist, has never been in a position where it could impose on others. When Christianity was in this same position, it was a peaceful religion. When Constantine made Christianity the state religion, the persecution of pagans began. Not illogical at all. Just a keen observer of history.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Why not? They had centuries to do it. Please read up on history before commenting.

The inquisition had centuries to do it too. Yet it cannot kill 2 million pple despite having the whole of Europe to do it in. It is not possible for a muslim minority to waste more Hindus than the global deathtoll of WW2. I’d like u to take ur claims to real historians (not ur muslim hating chums),or a human rights agency (whose job it is to measure actual incidents of breaches of human rights).

Using suspect statistics is typical of those who let hate,not intellect do their talking. U should not only read up on history but take up elementary math too.
Rodrigo Bivar:

There should be zero Muslims in India because they were invaders and stole the land.

To follow ur rule, there should be zero Christians in middle and southern Africa, China, Phillipines, Korea, India, and all of America - because they were invaders,stole land and imposed their faith on the pple.
Rodrigo Bivar:

The Middle East was Christian land before the Muslims came and stole it.

The Middle East was pagan before the Jews or the Christians came and stole it.
Rodrigo Bivar:

So your analogy is false – you confuse the thief and the victim. The only Muslim land is Arabia – and that is where they belong – everywhere else they stole from the rightful owners.

The only Christian land is…oops! no land at all because when they arrive everybody else owned the land. They didn’t make claims on land until they got powerful enuf to steal it for themselves. Anywhere else - they stole it from the rightful owners. No probs with my analogy so far.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Perhaps its because I understand the cruel and vicious nature of Islam.

Perhaps u recognise evil in others because it is the same evil inside u. Christianity and Islam - ain’t so unalike r they?
Rodrigo Bivar:

Tell those Indians and Armenians and Copts and Persians who lost their lives to the Muslims followed the teachings of Muhammad that Islam is nothing to be scared of.

What will u tell to those countless pple who’ve lost their lives thru 2,000 yrs of Christian expansionism?

I guess these guys don’t count.

 

[porkscratchings]

cestusdei:

porks, when was the last time a group of franciscan nuns seized an airplane and flew it into a building while shouting “praise Jesus”?

The last time that religion controlled govts.

 

[cestusdei]

porks, In other words you can’t remember when. Centuries. I can point out Islamic atrocities that happened today. When I was in Israel I asked if there were any arab Christian suicide bombers. Everyone thought the notion was insane, it simply was impossible. Jews, Muslims, and Christians all agreed on this.

To Maryam, those Israeli women should consider what the President of Iran said today. That if we would all just kill the Jews then the world would be a better place. You would think that Jews would take Islamic threats seriously esp. when they deny and then say they want another holocaust.

 

[porkscratchings]

porks, In other words you can’t remember when. Centuries. I can point out Islamic atrocities that happened today. When I was in Israel I asked if there were any arab Christian suicide bombers. Everyone thought the notion was insane, it simply was impossible. Jews, Muslims, and Christians all agreed on this.

To Maryam, those Israeli women should consider what the President of Iran said today. That if we would all just kill the Jews then the world would be a better place. You would think that Jews would take Islamic threats seriously esp. when they deny and then say they want another holocaust.

As in what I said in post#33:

Jainism while pacifist, has never been in a position where it could impose on others. When Christianity was in this same position, it was a peaceful religion. When Constantine made Christianity the state religion, the persecution of pagans began

Evil cannot be divorced from having to power to do it and escape punishment. Christians stopped murdering other folks when they lost the power to control govts and entire populations of countries. Should they get back the power they lost, would they refrain from oppressing others? Could they?

U posted on another thread that u want to go to Mecca and desecrate the Ka’aba. If u r capable of such hate as to want to hurt all muslims (not just those who commit terrorism) while u have no power, what would u dare to do if u had lots of power? Nuke the Ka’aba perhaps?

 

[cestusdei]

Christianity has been dominent and peaceful before. In fact the pagans were the persecutors in the beginning. Paganism didn’t lose because we persecuted them. It lost because Christianity was more attractive. See Rodney Starks book on the Rise of Christianity. The Church in fact exhibited a real restraining effect on violence. Islam on the other hand embraced violence early on and hasn’t quit.

Constantine btw didn’t make Christianity the State religion. He just made it legal in the Edict of Milan. It was Theodosius that made it the official religion in 380 AD.

So it is “hate” to want to preach freely? Muslims preach freely in the US. Is that hate? Should we make them stop? They have already threatened to nuke us if we don’t convert, isn’t that hate? You must be a Muslim if you think religious freedom is “hate.” Oh and hi pro, new name eh?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pork:

Nope - Regardless of the events already occurred, the Bible is not taken to be merely history by its believers but God’s infallible words, true for all time. The prescription is in the description. The Jews, and following them, the Christians base their right of ownership of the Holy Lands thru history - on the Bible’s prescription that God gave the land to Israel. Christians based their claim on supersuccession.

I give up. You don’t understand plain English. Description is not prescription.
pork:

Words reflect what is in the heart. If what is in the heart is hate and contempt, then the words will reflect it. While making ur point u made effort to demonise all muslims as terrorists or potential terrorists, the Koran as an instruction manual of terrorism against unbelievers. Where I’m from, that equates to incitement to hatred and possible violence against a group of pple.

I take it you cannot find a single verse from the Bible that has Jesus telling his followers to kill or persecute anyone. Thank you.

On the other hand, we know from the Quran and hadiths, Muhammad telling his followers to do just that.

Jeez, thanks again.
pork:

U commit injustice while claiming to defend it. I am merely pointing this out. Justice involve fair treatment - I hardly think depicting all or most muslims in such negative terms is fighting injustice.

I am fair to Muslims – in fact I will quote their religious literature to support any contention I make about them. I don’t accept that there are any wholly good Muslims because wholly good people do not follow a perverted aggressive cult like Islam.

Islam persecutes and kills people, man. If you support Islam you are supporting persecution and murder. That is not good or moral in my view.
pork:

I have not failed to address it. U who is ignorant of the sorry history of ur own faith - that multitudes of Christians throughout history have interpreted the Bible in just the way I have described, and acted upon it. U fail to see the link because u don’t want to see it. That Christianity, a religion of peace, can commit such evil, justifying it as acts of good.

Of course you have failed to address it. I asked you for a verse that has Jesus telling his supporters to kill or persecute anyone and you yap a lot but produce nothing.

Thanks.
pork:

Christian history says different. And I believe history more than I believe u.

I’m asking you for the theological basis of the Christian history of persecution and killing and you cannot bring me any. You expect Christians to all be saints. Well, for your information, they are not. There was much evil done in the name of Christianity, that even Pope John Paul II had to apologize for. But nothing was done according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. We can see that because you have consistently failed to produce a single verse in which Jesus told his followers to kill or persecute anyone.

So thanks again for showing up the poverty of your position which is a lot of hot air but no substance.
pork:

Sorry, I don’t know it.

You don’t have to apologize for your ignorance. I am here to help you understand. One would expect that if you come to malign Christianity in a Christian forum you could at least acquaint yourself with some of the basics of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
pork:

For his followers, what he did say was sufficient for them to persecute and kill Jews for almost 2,000 years.

And what exactly did he say that was sufficient for them to persecute and kill Jews for almost 2,000 years?
pork:

Dignity is self-worth. How is removing that anything to do with peace? There is no freedom without dignity. And no peace. There is not hyprocrisy in what I said, and no fallacy.

It’s something you made up, bud. There is no requirement for ‘dignity’ in peace. If you lose you lose – where’s the dignity in that?

Don’t tell us that the conquering Muslims cared two dinars about the ‘dignity’ of their conquered peoples. Please don’t.
pork:

The muslims got their Allah from ur Yahweh. U don’t have a problem with the offensive parts of the Bible, so u can’t complain about the muslims doing the same.Hypocrisy,anyone?

I maintain the Muslim Allah is merely a figment of Muhammad’s imagination and has nothing whatsoever to do with Yahweh. Please refer to my ‘parallelism’ thread to see how the Muslim Allah could not have been Yahweh.

I can call my dog Allah – but does that make him the deity of the Muslims? No. It’s just a false claim – like Muhammad’s false claim that the Muslim Allah is the God of Abraham.

cont.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pork:

The israelites started it first. It’s not about the right to do something but whether genocide makes ownership of land legit. And whether western govt has the right to move pple of land that is not theirs to sell or give, and hand this land to a group of folks who’ve never lived there for a 1,000 yrs. And for this group of folks to claim land using their holy text which they wrote themselves. I can’t see any modern court of any civilised country allowing some tycoon to take a piece of land by force and then for his descendents to claim they own it using documents they wrote themselves.

What’s with this childish, ‘but he started it first, mum?’

Secondly, you mean that it is right for the Muslims to commit genocide but not the right of anyone else eh?
pork:

The jews did not do any conquering - and the land weren’t theirs to claim back. If tough cheese to muslims is ur idea of justice, don’t ever think about being a judge, ok? U ain’t gotta clue.

What do you mean they did not do any conquering? They took the West Bank and Gaza by conquest after the War of 73. Now the Muslims bleat and whine.

You Muslims think you have the right to conquer but don’t give that right to anyone else, eh?

Suppose Israel were to conquer Southern Lebanon – does that mean they have the right to keep it?
pork:

I like ur description ‘swarmed’ as if the Arabs r vermin. And linking ‘prosperity’ to those u favour. U really should read Hitler’s speeches - he described the Jews the same way u just described the Arabs: that the Jews were a threat to prosperity and national strength built by the German pple.

I have read the Quran – that is worse than anything Hitler ever thought of.

You still cannot argue with the evidence that most of the so-called Palestinian Arabs have no link to Palestine, have you? It’s a fact that most Palestinian Arabs like Yasser Arafat came from other Arab countries and are not Palestinian at all. They just claim they are Palestinian to gain sympathy and fool people into thinking they have any legitimacy.
pork:

If u were displaced from ur own country,u’ll be born and bred elsewhere. To then claim that displaced persons have no right to the nationality and land of their forefathers is evidence of ur poor concept of justice.

How were the so-called Palestinian Arabs displaced? Most of them had nothing to do with Palestine prior to the 1940s. They came from surrounding Arab countries because the incoming Jews brought prosperity.

Besides, the Arabs have no more right to the land than anyone else since they were not descendants of the people who had prior claims to the land – they were not descendants of the Philistines or the Canaanites – they were Arabs from Arabia. They conquered that land and now the conquered people re-conquered it from them. So stop whining.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pork:

The israelites started it first. It’s not about the right to do something but whether genocide makes ownership of land legit. And whether western govt has the right to move pple of land that is not theirs to sell or give, and hand this land to a group of folks who’ve never lived there for a 1,000 yrs. And for this group of folks to claim land using their holy text which they wrote themselves. I can’t see any modern court of any civilised country allowing some tycoon to take a piece of land by force and then for his descendents to claim they own it using documents they wrote themselves.

What’s with this childish, ‘but he started it first, mum?’

Secondly, you mean that it is right for the Muslims to commit genocide but not the right of anyone else eh?
pork:

The jews did not do any conquering - and the land weren’t theirs to claim back. If tough cheese to muslims is ur idea of justice, don’t ever think about being a judge, ok? U ain’t gotta clue.

What do you mean they did not do any conquering? They took the West Bank and Gaza by conquest after the War of 73. Now the Muslims bleat and whine.

You Muslims think you have the right to conquer but don’t give that right to anyone else, eh?

Suppose Israel were to conquer Southern Lebanon – does that mean they have the right to keep it?
pork:

I like ur description ‘swarmed’ as if the Arabs r vermin. And linking ‘prosperity’ to those u favour. U really should read Hitler’s speeches - he described the Jews the same way u just described the Arabs: that the Jews were a threat to prosperity and national strength built by the German pple.

I have read the Quran – that is worse than anything Hitler ever thought of.

You still cannot argue with the evidence that most of the so-called Palestinian Arabs have no link to Palestine, have you? It’s a fact that most Palestinian Arabs like Yasser Arafat came from other Arab countries and are not Palestinian at all. They just claim they are Palestinian to gain sympathy and fool people into thinking they have any legitimacy.
pork:

If u were displaced from ur own country,u’ll be born and bred elsewhere. To then claim that displaced persons have no right to the nationality and land of their forefathers is evidence of ur poor concept of justice.

How were the so-called Palestinian Arabs displaced? Most of them had nothing to do with Palestine prior to the 1940s. They came from surrounding Arab countries because the incoming Jews brought prosperity.

Besides, the Arabs have no more right to the land than anyone else since they were not descendants of the people who had prior claims to the land – they were not descendants of the Philistines or the Canaanites – they were Arabs from Arabia. They conquered that land and now the conquered people re-conquered it from them. So stop whining.