How a suicide bomber thinks

[chosen_people]

And this was certainly a crime, the result of at that time longstanding racial tensions of illegal Jewish immigration into the territory. The Arabs were angry and worried that the thousands of Europeans streaming into their country without permission and without regard for local sovereignty.

The race riots of the late 20’s and 30’s were not out of the blue, and Jewish terrorists groups were already operating at that time as well. There is simply no intellectually honest way to cite these race riots as an example of “unprovoked arab hatred for Jews”, and that implication is especially strange when you note that the community was ancient. Why wasn’t it destroyed “from time immemorial” if the Arabs always hated Jews?

There were pre-state Jewish terrorists who used indiscriminate bombings and shootings to agitate racial tensions. There is no serious historical dispute about this. Britain was a target, as well as local Arabs. And compared to the Palestinian Arabs, the Jewish militias and terrorist groups both were far better armed.

reply

Over the years seeing seemingly good and humane people have defended Arab terrorism against Jews and others. I have come to see that their propoganda is systematic and always follows these simple rules:

1. Always accuse the other party of the thing you can be validly accused of. For instance: If you engage in indiscriminate terrorism accuse Israel of being a “terrorist state”; Islamic Nationalistic Fudamentalism doesn’t recognize the equal rights of Jews or Christians in the Middle East- claim that Israel is a racist state.
2. Defend any and all acts of terrorist violence by blaming the victim. Since the victims are to blame they have no right to defend themselves. ( I have an impossibly great moral devide with any supporter of terrorism - I also believe that this stance claims that the terrorist is actually incapable of moral human behaviour - something which causes them to deprecate themselves - Although Christians and Moslems have destroyed countless Jewish places of worship the Jewish people of Israel do not feel the an overwhelming impulse to destroy Churches and Mosques, they protect them and the right of freedom of worship - After the Holocaust Jews did not feel an overwhelming impulse to kill any and all Germans).
3. People don’t know history and many of them are only to ready to believe something bad about the Jews. Therefore if you need to you can always make something up that hte Jews supposedly did and find some people to believe you.

Before I go to demonstrate these rules in this post lets do a simple example of the

Yes, and this was part of a pattern of terrorist attacks in which Jewish terrorists were more than willing participants. The bombing of the British Embassy in Rome and the attack on the King David Hotel made Jewish groups the first international terrorists in the region, and there were numerous documented massacres of Arab towns by these same Jewish terrorist groups.

No settlements, but the brutal expulsion of 90 percent of the Arabs inside Israel proper probably had something to do with their being angry. Your pre-state militias used force to expel all but 10 percent of the Arabs who used to live in what became Israel; thousand were killed in the process. I think that might have had something to do with the Fedayeen raids, mostly carried out by people who had been living in Israel just ten years before that.

See above. Expulsion of 90 percent of the Arab population from the land between the 1967 line and the Mediterranean would be the source of that.

Well, considering that every single major Palestinian organization, and every single country in the world (except for the United States and Israel) has endorsed this plan, I think it’s more than fair to say that things have changed.

 

[pro_universal]

chosen_people:
Chosen people,

We are both here discussing the motives for and also our responses to terrorism. You are claiming something about the motives for terrorism, just like I am. Pointing out that terrorism isn’t a) only committed by Palestinians against Israelis and b) that there is a political context does not constitute defending or condoning terrorism. It is deeply immoral and should be stopped. To stop it requires addressing the root causes, and that’s what I’m interested in discussing here.

You seem to be reluctant to discuss at all Jewish terrorism against Palestinian Arabs in this context. The problem is that without discussing Jewish terrorist movements, Israeli state policy, and the situation of the Palestinians in that context, it is simply impossible to have an honest discussion about how a suicide bomber thinks or what a solution is.

I hope you are now satisfied that I have absolutely zero tolerance for crimes against innocent people, and that I’m also interested in a fair discussion of the history. If you’d like to proceed, I am waiting to see what your responses to my factual claims about the history of Jewish and then Israeli activity in Israel-Palestine.

Towards that end, I have a few specific questions that I’d like to get your opinion on:

1. Do you believe that there were Jewish terrorist groups, and that these groups ever attacked Palestinian civilians and British civil servants? If you agree they existed, what were their motivations for engaging in terrorism?
2. What injustices, in your opinion, have been committed against the Palestinians? What has been done to Palestinians in the course of the 20th century that was wrong?

Thanks and again, I pray that none of this madness will ever hurt you or your loved ones again. I would like to see both Israelis and Palestinians be safe from the scourge of violence.

 

[Hastrman]

I don’t see how the rantings of the president of Iran has anything to do with a thread about a Palestinian grandmother that became a suicide bomber. The president of Iran is a puppet, everybody in Iran knows that the religious leader of Iran is the man with the power.

Everyone seems to know a lot of bull, don’t they? Actually Ahmadinejad has been continually eroding the Ayatallah’s power base, and trying to get a more radical one appointed as successor.

Sixtus et al, the IRA/Loyalist fights were no more Catholic-Protestant sectarian violence than Russian mafia/yakuza fights are Russian Orthodox-Pure Land Buddhist sectarian violence. It’s essentially a gang war. Ditto the fighting in Iraq–not sectarian, but racial, between Iraqi shi’ites on one side and ethnically Syrian sunnis on the other. If it was sectarian, the Sunni Kurds would be throwing in with the other Sunnis, and they’re not, because the other sunnis hate them racially.

 

[pro_universal]

Sixtus et al, the IRA/Loyalist fights were no more Catholic-Protestant sectarian violence than Russian mafia/yakuza fights are Russian Orthodox-Pure Land Buddhist sectarian violence. It’s essentially a gang war.

I believe Sixtus speaks from personal experience, so you might want to reconsider his opinions.

Ditto the fighting in Iraq–not sectarian, but racial, between Iraqi shi’ites on one side and ethnically Syrian sunnis on the other. If it was sectarian, the Sunni Kurds would be throwing in with the other Sunnis, and they’re not, because the other sunnis hate them racially.

It is most certainly sectarian. Iraqi Shiites aren’t the same race as Iranian shiites, and Iraqi Sunnis maintained a government that had extremely hostile relations with Syria. It’s a mistake to use western theories of racism in understanding the middle east; they simply do not have our history and understanding of racial hatred. It’s a different ballgame.

 

[Montalban]

In short; suicide-bombers think that by killing people they’ll get heavenly rewards

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

…

1. Do you believe that there were Jewish terrorist groups, and that these groups ever attacked Palestinian civilians and British civil servants? If you agree they existed, what were their motivations for engaging in terrorism?

Probably… but they are not suicidal. I don’t think there is anything in Jewish scripture to inspire them to kill and conquer the world by force. So, their motivation could be defence; They probably believe that Israel has a right to exist. Do you?

1. What injustices, in your opinion, have been committed against the Palestinians? What has been done to Palestinians in the course of the 20th century that was wrong?

I think Palestinians suffered injustice when Palestine was split up into Israel and Jordan. Palestinians and Jordanians can live side by side, so I would assume there is hope for Palestinians and Israelies, unless religion is an issue.

The First Arab-Israeli War made Palestinians (Arabs living in Israel) into refugees. Neither the surrounding Arab countries or Israel will take them back. That’s why UN gave them West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza. Why can’t Palestinians stop the fighting already? Aboriginies are not going to get Australia back. Native Americans are not going to get America back. Palestinians are not going to get Israel back; The world will end (probably with a nuclear war) before that happens.

 

[Montalban]

Probably… but they are not suicidal. I don’t think there is anything in Jewish scripture to inspire them to kill and conquer the world by force. So, their motivation could be defence; They probably believe that Israel has a right to exist. Do you?

The Jews: they do have a more limited agenda; home security.

 

[chosen_people]

Chosen people,

We are both here discussing the motives for and also our responses to terrorism. You are claiming something about the motives for terrorism, just like I am. Pointing out that terrorism isn’t a) only committed by Palestinians against Israelis and b) that there is a political context does not constitute defending or condoning terrorism. It is deeply immoral and should be stopped. To stop it requires addressing the root causes, and that’s what I’m interested in discussing here.
.

You really just don’t get it do you!

We don’t need to discuss the “justifications” behind a Palestinian terrorist strapping a bomb to himself this week, walking into a local bakery in Eilat and setting the bomb off killing three innocent people targeted for the sole reason that they were Jewish.

I and good people everywhere have no need to discuss that the terrorist is a radical Islamic fundamentalist who believes that all countries in the Middle East and for that matter the World should be governed under Moslem law and the Jewish state and its Jewish citizens wiped out of existence.

I and good people everywhere don’t need to discuss the reasons and justifications of the Nazi’s in killing one third of the Jewish people.

I and good people everywhere don’t need to discuss the “justifications” of Arab terrorists destroying the World Trade Center and killing some 3000 innocent victims.

I and good people everywhere don’t need to discuss the “justification” for the massacres of Jews by the Crusaders.

The reason that we don’t feel the need to discuss the “justifications” for these acts is that as good and decent people we know that there can be no justification. End of discussion..

Arab riots against Jewish civillians in the 1920’s. I gave the example of the killing of scores of unarmed Jews who had lived
in Hebron from time immemorial and the destruction of the Jewish community there.

Your answer was that these Jewish innocent unarmed civillians were in conflict with burgeoning Arab nationalism. Therefore we have your “justification” for wanton killing of innocent Jewish people. If you don’t agree with them you can kill them. In fact, since it was the Jews that were in conflict with Arab aspirations, according to this convoluted (AND TO MY MIND IMMORAL) way of thinking the Jewish victims were infact responsible for their own deaths. See my rules of propaganda above - blame the victims.

Now let’s continue with your “justification”. While it is true that Jews perhaps were seen as a threat by Arabs to their national aspirations it must be equally clear to you that the Arabs were a threat to Jewish natonal aspirations. If the Arabs were justified in killing Jews because of their national aspirations, than it should be held that the Jews should have been able to act in the same “just” manner. In fact, if we could continue with you “justification” than any act against Arabs by Jews would fall under the same justification. (further rule of propaganda: Jewish blood is cheaper than other people’s blood-see further).

Now we can start to see the intimate link between antiemitism and anti Zionism

1. Religious or political conflict with Jews may be seen as justifications for killing them.
2. Jews don’t have the an equal justification as the one used against them and any attempt to physically defend themselves is seen of and in itself as justification to further attack them. As opposed to the actions taken against the Jews, only the Jewish reaction may be deemed immoral.

These claims and justifications have been used by antisemites over the millenium and are the same claims and justifications in anti Zionist propaganda.

Anti semitic and anti Zionist propagandists don’t like to be put in this position so they invariably try to claim that the Jews did something equally as bad. We’ve already seen that there is underlying antisemitism in that claim since presumably Jews should have the same right of justification. However, as I stated, it is always concurrently claimed that only the Jewish act was immoral (see: Jewish blood is cheaper).

We come to the next rule of propaganda: People don’t know history and are invariably willing to believe bad things against the Jews (remember the World Trade Center claims that Jews were warned not to report to work on 9/11 or that the act was committed by the Israel Mossad).

Now there is no historical argument about Arab riots in which many innocent unarmed Jews were massacred in the 1920’s.

In your previous response you used standard mud slinging to try and demonstrate that Jews did equally despicable acts. As I stated, people don’t know history and they are always willing to believe something bad about the Jews. So why not make something up.

So to demonstrate what I’m talking about, please detail all the “terrorist” acts which you claim were instigated and committed by Jews against Arabs in the 1920’s. Cite objective sources. Couldn’t find any? Didn’t think so.

 

[Montalban]

Arab riots against Jewish civillians in the 1920’s. I gave the example of the killing of scores of unarmed Jews who had lived

Pogroms by Moslems have been on-going since they captured the Holy Land.

However Moslem memory seems to run-out when looking back past 1948.

 

[pro_universal]

chosen people,

Not only does the word “justification” not appear anywhere in my post, I specifically condemned terrorism and I have given you zero indication that I “justify” any of it.

You do not need to justify terrorism to look at root causes. You seem to want to ignore the violent conditions that produce terrorism; that’s fine, but you are offering an alternative explanation and you don’t seem to want to justify it with anything more than “Moslems hate us all.” That’s a one sentence answer, and it ignores important historical and social context.

I will repeat my two questions, and I’d like your answers if you’re still willing to have a discussion. You putting words in my mouth and wrongfully accusing me of supporting terror isn’t a discussion, and it makes me think that you really don’t have a reasoned or justifiable position on this subject.

Here are the two questions that you apparently missed:

1. Do you believe that there were Jewish terrorist groups, and that these groups ever attacked Palestinian civilians and British civil servants? If you agree they existed, what were their motivations for engaging in terrorism?
2. What injustices, in your opinion, have been committed against the Palestinians? What has been done to Palestinians in the course of the 20th century that was wrong?

Answering these questions is important, because it helps us to consider what might be motivating the Palestinians to do the things that they’re doing. I hope you will want to try and talk about it, instead of just accusing me of being an anti-semite and accusing me of justifying terror. I have done no such thing and I honestly resent the implication.

 

[Montalban]

chosen people,

Not only does the word “justification” not appear anywhere in my post, I specifically condemned terrorism and I have given you zero indication that I “justify” any of it.

then why do you seek to justify it by making relativist argument?

 

[pro_universal]

Probably… but they are not suicidal. I don’t think there is anything in Jewish scripture to inspire them to kill and conquer the world by force. So, their motivation could be defence; They probably believe that Israel has a right to exist. Do you?

There’s nothing in Muslim scripture to justify suicide, and there is plenty in the Old Testament that justifies conquest by force.

As for Israel’s right to exist, I believe it. What I don’t accept is that Israel has the right to exist as a state that puts priority on its Jewish citizens over its Arab citizens; it’s wrong for Saudi Arabia to do it to Jews, and it’s wrong for Israel to do it to Arabs. I absolutely do not accept that any state has the right to discriminate against some of its citizens based on religion and ethnic identity.

I think Palestinians suffered injustice when Palestine was split up into Israel and Jordan. Palestinians and Jordanians can live side by side, so I would assume there is hope for Palestinians and Israelies, unless religion is an issue.

There is certainly hope. The international community (except for Israel and the United States) and the Palestinians have all agreed on the 1967 border, two state solution.

The problem is that many Israelis do not support this. Haaretz just reported that about 33 percent of Israelis even want to set Yigal Amir, the man who assassinated Yitzak Rabin, free…I can’t see how that’s anything other than strong opposition to the two state solution.

The First Arab-Israeli War made Palestinians (Arabs living in Israel) into refugees. Neither the surrounding Arab countries or Israel will take them back. That’s why UN gave them West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza. Why can’t Palestinians stop the fighting already? Aboriginies are not going to get Australia back. Native Americans are not going to get America back. Palestinians are not going to get Israel back; The world will end (probably with a nuclear war) before that happens.

Israel does not accept that the Palestinians have the right to the West Bank, Golan, or Gaza. The Palestinians do accept this. They’ve been trying for that since the 1980’s…Israel and the United States have rejected the plan.

I agree with your plan, and you are citing the demands Palestinians are making: A return to the 1967 borders.

 

[pro_universal]

then why do you seek to justify it by making relativist argument?

I’m not making a relativist argument, nor am I justifying terrorism. Please read my posts before you accuse me of supporting horrific crimes against civilians.

Note that the word “justify” only appears in your post and chosen people’s. I did not use it, and I do not support terrorism, period.

Unless you maintain that it’s impossible to discuss causes of terrorism without justifying terrorism, please refrain from putting words into my mouth.

 

[Montalban]

I’m not making a relativist argument, nor am I justifying terrorism. Please read my posts before you accuse me of supporting horrific crimes against civilians.

I’m afraid that you are by asking people to think about the general causes of terrorism, and so on.

It’s irrelevant all of this to the OP about so-called ‘suicide bombers’

Unless you maintain that it’s impossible to discuss causes of terrorism without justifying terrorism, please refrain from putting words into my mouth.

This thread is not about terrorism but about a particular form. As someone’s already pointed out the Israelis aren’t going about strapping bombs to themselves and blowing people up.

The post above has you comparing Jewish terror to Saudi terror. You are therefore making a relativist argument.

 

[chosen_people]

chosen people,

Not only does the word “justification” not appear anywhere in my post, I specifically condemned terrorism and I have given you zero indication that I “justify” any of it.

You do not need to justify terrorism to look at root causes. You seem to want to ignore the violent conditions that produce terrorism; that’s fine, but you are offering an alternative explanation and you don’t seem to want to justify it with anything more than “Moslems hate us all.” That’s a one sentence answer, and it ignores important historical and social context.

I will repeat my two questions, and I’d like your answers if you’re still willing to have a discussion. You putting words in my mouth and wrongfully accusing me of supporting terror isn’t a discussion, and it makes me think that you really don’t have a reasoned or justifiable position on this subject.

Here are the two questions that you apparently missed:

1. Do you believe that there were Jewish terrorist groups, and that these groups ever attacked Palestinian civilians and British civil servants? If you agree they existed, what were their motivations for engaging in terrorism?
2. What injustices, in your opinion, have been committed against the Palestinians? What has been done to Palestinians in the course of the 20th century that was wrong?

Answering these questions is important, because it helps us to consider what might be motivating the Palestinians to do the things that they’re doing. I hope you will want to try and talk about it, instead of just accusing me of being an anti-semite and accusing me of justifying terror. I have done no such thing and I honestly resent the implication.

The subject is not the Israel-Arab conflict. A discussion about the conflicting nationalistic aspirations of Jews and Arabs over Israel’s homeland and ways of settling the conflict is a seperate issue.

The question is “How a suicide bomber thinks”. How a suicide bomber thinks is an easy question. He or She is a fanatic with a total disregard for human life. If you think that he/she can be reasoned with or convinced otherwise you are at best extremely naive. He/she has been inundated with hate his/her entire life.

By trying to place the suicide bomber is the context of a particular conflict you are advertently or inadvertently attempting to justify his actions.

Jews and Christians (at least outside the Arab world) do not
strap explosives to themselves in order to kill innocent unarmed people targeted for their religion. That does not mean
that there haven’t been acts of terror or acts committed against others in total disregard for human life. However those acts were not an integral part of an ideology and are viewed with disgust and condemnation.

We mistakenly believe that all people think with a western Judeo-Christian democratic way of thinking. That is not true. We would like to believe that there is a simple logical reason for these dispicable acts by suicide bombers and these “simple logical” suicide bombers will stop as soon as we find this simple solution.

No matter how many times reality bites you, you’ll keep on ignoring it.

Stop trying to explain their actions for one second and read the Charters of the PLO and Hamas. Learn it understand it and believe it. Don’t make excuses for it.

Wealthy Saudi Arabians led by a rich Ben Laden kill
thousands of people on 9/11 and you want to hear excuses that they did it because they were oppressed?

Do you think it matters to me if Hitler and the German people
killed millions of Jews because they believed Jews were a threat to his Aryan race?

These people are able to do what they do because their being fed on hate from the moment their born. You want the root cause - there it is.

Israel signed the Oslo accords. What happened? Massive Palestinian terror acts against Israel, thousands of Jewish Israelis killed and wounded. Make sense to you when someone is trying to compromise and end a conflict to wage war against them?

Still believe in rationality? Still seeking your rational underlying cause?

Israel withdraws from Gaza tearing thousands of good Israeli citizens from their homes, anything for peace. No Israelis to blame now. Its all up to them. So what happened? First the Arabs elect a super radical Islamic fundamentalist terror group to be their government. Then they increase their rain of missles on civillian targets like the town of Sderot ten fold. Its all about a Palestinian state right? So do they declare a Palestinian state even in interim borders? Of course not. They are now busily engaged in a civil war where the Palestinian Arabs will undoubtedly manage to kill more of their people on purpose than were ever killed by accident by Israeli forces.

However I have no doubt that you will be able to explain why the people to blame for Gaza are the Jews and the Israelis.

 

[Montalban]

The subject is not the Israel-Arab conflict. A discussion about the conflicting nationalistic aspirations of Jews and Arabs over Israel’s homeland and ways of settling the conflict is a separate issue.

The question is “How a suicide bomber thinks”. How a suicide bomber thinks is an easy question. He or She is a fanatic with a total disregard for human life. If you think that he/she can be reasoned with or convinced otherwise you are at best extremely naive. He/she has been inundated with hate his/her entire life.

Indeed! As far back as post #82 I’ve been saying this but there seems to be a thing with Pro_Universal who is intent of distracting people from critical examination of Islam.

And I make no claim here that all suicide bombers are Islamic… the Tamils employ similar tactics*, never-the-less Moslems are suicide-bombers and this is an aspect he doesn’t want to address.

*one needs to have a philosophy of life where-in such tactics are valid.

 

[chosen_people]

There is certainly hope. The international community (except for Israel and the United States) and the Palestinians have all agreed on the 1967 border, two state solution.

Israel does not accept that the Palestinians have the right to the West Bank, Golan, or Gaza. The Palestinians do accept this. They’ve been trying for that since the 1980’s…Israel and the United States have rejected the plan.

I agree with your plan, and you are citing the demands Palestinians are making: A return to the 1967 borders.

Go to any Palestinian Arab site on the internet and look at the map. No Israel!

 

[chosen_people]

This is simply not true. There was one book written that claimed this, by Joan Peters, but it has been thoroughly debunked. The land was certainly inhabited…it’s just that most of its inhabitants were expelled in the war that created Israel.

I recognize this as a crib of Joan Peters, and then Alan Dershowitz’s crib of Joan Peters. Both the case for Israel and “From Time Immemorial” have been thoroughly debunked. Dershowitz didn’t fabricate, he just copied Joan Peters…Joan Peters’ book was exposed as nearly a complete fabrication. A hoax, literally, and that’s where your quotes are coming from (or, a website that unbeknownst to you has copied from either book.)

See above. This is based on Joan Peters’ fabrication and Dershowitz’s reliance on her fabrication.

Again, this is based on a fabricated work…but you can also use common sense to analyze the proposition:

For 1400 years, the Arabs had no problem with Jews, yet all of a sudden they hate Jews in the 20th century? Why the sea change in opinion? It just doesn’t stand up to analysis, and for the record, I recognize the claims and scholarship that you’re quoting as cribbed directly from Joan Peters’ “From Time Immemorial.” It was a hoax, has been exposed by serious scholarship as a hoax, and should not be taken as fact.

Joan Peters was an advisor on Middle Eastern affairs in the Carter administration. Her work is not a “hoax” but an academic work. It is clear that many Arabs entered Israel during the British Mandate as a result of the flourishing prosperity brought by the Jews. The dispute is as to the base line Arab population numbers (see population census below)
.

In this regard you are invited to read a copy of Mark Twain’s non fiction book of his travels “Inocents Abroad” - 1869. It is easily available on the internet. I don’t remember if quotations from his work were included in the Peter’s book. That being said, I have it on good authority that the American author Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) was not a “Jewish Zionist secret agent”. Since Twain died years before Peter’s or Dershowitz were born it is unlikely he was part of the “hoax” to which you refer.

In his book Twain clearly describes the desolation and lack of population in the Holy Land outside of Jerusalem.

In regards to Jerusalem the first official census was carried out in 1844 under the Ottoman Empire. It shows that largest population group was the Jews and they have remained the majority population in Jerusalem until today.

The Jews accepted the UN decision of the 29th of November 1947 to give them a tiny sliver of their land. The Arabs rejected the partition decision giving them a(nother) state and six (that’s right six!) different Arab armies invaded Israel. At the time the Countries of the West, including the United States were imposing an arms boycott on the middle east which in fact hurt only Israel). Three short years after six million Jews had been killed in the Holocaust, a full one per cent of the Jewish population of Israel died defending their regaining of sovreignty over their land (the survival of Israel against such overwhelming odds should make a believer out of any athiest).

Had the Arabs accepted the UN decision and not gone to war the Palestinians would have had a state since 1948 and there would be no Palestinian Arab refugees. So who is to blame for that situation? - remember the propaganda rules above- that’s right - the Jews!

In 1967 Israel begged Jordan not to get involved in the war. Jordan attacked Israel anyway. Who is to blame? - okay so your starting to understand - the Jews.

What happened to the Arabs at the beginning of the 20th Century? - Pan Arab Nationalism. The Nationalistic belief that the Arabs are one people and to them and to them alone belong all the Middle East. So who should we accuse of racism? - your getting really good at this - the Jews.

Incidentally, if you can’t find any mention of the “Palestinian Arab” people in any works about Arab nationalism at the beginning of the 20th Century its not another “Jewish hoax” they simply don’t yet exist (but that’s another story).

 

[UBERROGO]

Allah promise them for the jihadist. You will have 72 houris in brothel heaven where the wine river flowing…

They are dark eyed because they were “told twice”.

 

[Sixtus]

Someone is going to have to put out the first hand of friendship and brotherly love. Is it not appropriate that Christians should set the first example?