How a suicide bomber thinks

[pro_universal]

Any discussion as to the “reasons” behind these acts is tantamount to giving legitimacy to these acts.

Okay, tell me this then:

Are you not “giving legitimacy” to these acts by citing your own reasons? You claim that it is because of Arab hatred. That is a cause and a reason for the violence, in your eyes, is it not?

This standard is silly. What you are saying is that you don’t want any discussion of reasons that you don’t agree with. When I gave you facts to support my claim that the historical violence is playing a role, you just typed lots in big red caps and stopped trying to defend your claims.

The same society that produces suicide bombers also has “family honour killings” where a brother murders his sister because let’s say she’s been having premarital sex and therefore brought “disgrace” to her family.

Again, not all Palestinian terrorists are Muslim, and not all terrorists are Muslim. Israel produced Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein…are they not products of Israel, or are they not terrorists, in your eyes?

Baruch Goldstein, for those reading, shot and killed 29 Palestinians in Hebron while they were praying…and there’s now a shrine to his memory in that same settlement.

Yigal Amir is the man who shot Yitzak Rabin. I think we can all agree that this was terrorism. Yet, 30 percent of Israelis favor setting Yigal Amir free. Here’s the link: ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3320266,00.html

In other words, you live in a country where fully 1/3 of the population wants to set free a terrorist, yet you’re denying that this country’s policies have anything to do with provoking Palestinians or fostering a culture of hatred. I find that to be incredible.

. What you will not be able to do is to convince us that an “honour killing” is anything other than brutal murder just as you will be unable to convince any normal moral human being that suicide terrorists who kill civillians are anything other than dispicable murderers.

And that’s good, since this is not what I’m trying to do. What I’m trying to do is point out that these killers are born and bred because of the conditions of violence in which they live, and Israel has a major hand in creating those conditions.

Would you not agree that what Baruch Goldstein did, and what Jewish terrorist groups have done over the years, are despicable killings that have contributed to the level of Palestinian hatred for Israelis? Or do we have to ignore despicable acts of murder by Jews and Israelis when we’re discussing Palestinians? If so…one question yet again: Why?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… And the existence of Christian suicide bombers in Lebanon and Christian PLO members in Israel…

I apologise. I didn’t know Christianity had such a problem with suicide bombers. I didn’t realise Christianity is posing a threat to world peace.

… your assertion that this discussion can only be about Muslims since all suicide bombers are Muslim is flat out wrong…

Fair enough. And to use political situations as reasoning for how a suicide bomber thinks is foolish, because it doesn’t help to explain suicide bombers of Sept 11, Bali, London, Spain, and India.

You should read Robert Pape’s “Dying to Win,” a study of every documented suicide attack. Pape found that terrorism is linked to foreign occupations, and not to religion.

Ok, that’s probably right. If there were no foreigners in London, I doubt there would have been a London suicide bombing. If there were no tourists in Bali, I doubt there would have been a Bali suicide bombing.

If you want to understand suicide bombing and terrorism, you have to analyze the conditions that produce it…

Shall we talk about the capitol of suicide bombers, that is Iraq? What are the political conditions that produce such terrorism in Iraq almost on a daily basis? It seems to me, that once Iraq had the opportunity for some freedom, suicide bombers chose to use this freedom to kill themselves. Where are the Iraqi peacemakers? And why can’t they choose life?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… And the existence of Christian suicide bombers in Lebanon and Christian PLO members in Israel…

I apologise. I didn’t know Christianity had such a problem with suicide bombers. I didn’t realise Christianity is posing a threat to world peace.

… your assertion that this discussion can only be about Muslims since all suicide bombers are Muslim is flat out wrong…

Fair enough. And to use political situations as reasoning for how a suicide bomber thinks is foolish, because it doesn’t help to explain suicide bombers of Sept 11, Bali, London, Spain, and India.

You should read Robert Pape’s “Dying to Win,” a study of every documented suicide attack. Pape found that terrorism is linked to foreign occupations, and not to religion.

Ok, that’s probably right. If there were no foreigners in London, I doubt there would have been a London suicide bombing. If there were no tourists in Bali, I doubt there would have been a Bali suicide bombing.

If you want to understand suicide bombing and terrorism, you have to analyze the conditions that produce it…

Shall we talk about the capitol of suicide bombers, that is Iraq? What are the political conditions that produce such terrorism in Iraq almost on a daily basis? It seems to me, that once Iraq had the opportunity for some freedom, suicide bombers chose to use this freedom to kill themselves. Where are the Iraqi peacemakers? And why can’t they choose life?

 

[cestusdei]

Is pro still trying to show that the terrorists are really just misunderstood teddy bears? I already proved him wrong on this stuff. I would have more respect for him if he would just admit that he supports Islamic terrorism. At least that’s honest.

I hope everyone saw the Fox special on Radical Islam. It should be required viewing for every American. Little kids holding guns, when asked what they were going to do with them, they respond “kill the JEWS!” Nice.

 

[pro_universal]

I apologise. I didn’t know Christianity had such a problem with suicide bombers. I didn’t realise Christianity is posing a threat to world peace.

I see. So we only talk about bombings when Muslims commit them, but not Christians, because of your theories of which religion is more dangerous? That seems to beg the question.

Fair enough. And to use political situations as reasoning for how a suicide bomber thinks is foolish, because it doesn’t help to explain suicide bombers of Sept 11, Bali, London, Spain, and India.

Uh, yes, it does. I recommend you read the book (which accounts for every suicide bombing recorded up to its date of publication.) Saudi Arabia is occupied by US troops, Indonesia is a radioactive soup of different nationalities and cultures (at war with each other), and London and Spain both sent troops to Iraq, which was the explicit reason given for the attacks by the bombers. So your theory here that this has nothing to do with foreign occupations is bunk.

Shall we talk about the capitol of suicide bombers, that is Iraq? What are the political conditions that produce such terrorism in Iraq almost on a daily basis? It seems to me, that once Iraq had the opportunity for some freedom, suicide bombers chose to use this freedom to kill themselves. Where are the Iraqi peacemakers? And why can’t they choose life?

Hmmm…you think the daily sectarian killings, presence of foreign troops, and state of open war might have something to do with it?

Look at Afghanistan for a comparison. Before the US invasion, suicide bombing was unknown as a tactic. In Iraq, there had not been a single suicide bombing before the US invasion. Now there is suicide bombing where there wasn’t before, even though there have been Muslims there the entire time.

Your problem is that you are letting your presupposition that Islam is bad drive all analysis of terrorism and warfare. Ignoring comparisons that discredit your mistrust of Islam and refusing to consider political and military realities is the tool of someone who wants to bash Islam instead of someone who is seeking a real solution to the problem of terrorism.

 

[Alexius]

I see. So we only talk about bombings when Muslims commit them, but not Christians, because of your theories of which religion is more dangerous? That seems to beg the question.

Uh, yes, it does. I recommend you read the book (which accounts for every suicide bombing recorded up to its date of publication.) Saudi Arabia is occupied by US troops, Indonesia is a radioactive soup of different nationalities and cultures (at war with each other), and London and Spain both sent troops to Iraq, which was the explicit reason given for the attacks by the bombers. So your theory here that this has nothing to do with foreign occupations is bunk.

Hmmm…you think the daily sectarian killings, presence of foreign troops, and state of open war might have something to do with it?

Look at Afghanistan for a comparison. Before the US invasion, suicide bombing was unknown as a tactic. In Iraq, there had not been a single suicide bombing before the US invasion. Now there is suicide bombing where there wasn’t before, even though there have been Muslims there the entire time.

Your problem is that you are letting your presupposition that Islam is bad drive all analysis of terrorism and warfare. Ignoring comparisons that discredit your mistrust of Islam and refusing to consider political and military realities is the tool of someone who wants to bash Islam instead of someone who is seeking a real solution to the problem of terrorism.

I think we could say that there are extremists of every kind, but as of now, the attention is drawn on the Middle East. There are certainly Israeli terrorists, but usually they do not kill themselves. It is the thought of many of the Islamic suicide bombers; however, that by dying in this manner, they might be called among the great martyrs of Allaah. As a matter of fact, the phrase uttered by every Muslim at a time of prayer, peace, war, attack, and other times is “Allaahu Akbar,” which means “God is [most] great.” They do it in the name of Allaah and Islam, so the fact that they are Muslim is certainly relevent. We could say that the IRA, Christian Identity, Svobodniki, Army of God, The Black Hand, ULFA, God’s Army, LRA, AN, etc., are all terrorist organisations, but they do not have suicide bombing campaigns…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[pro_universal]

We could say that the IRA, Christian Identity, Svobodniki, Army of God, The Black Hand, ULFA, God’s Army, LRA, AN, etc., are all terrorist organisations, but they do not have suicide bombing campaigns…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Alexius,

Here’s an article recently published by the author of the book I mentioned earlier. I see what you are saying, but I think this is more a function of focusing only on the “Islam” part of the equation when there is violence in these places. Look at one of Pape’s conclusions, for example, about the first suicide bombing campaign in modern times…the Lebanese bombings:

In writing my book on suicide attackers, I had researchers scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and the biographies of the Hezbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. Shockingly, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were from leftist political groups like the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union. Three were Christians, including a female high-school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.

What these suicide attackers — and their heirs today — shared was not a religious or political ideology but simply a commitment to resisting a foreign occupation. Nearly two decades of Israeli military presence did not root out Hezbollah. The only thing that has proven to end suicide attacks, in Lebanon and elsewhere, is withdrawal by the occupying force.

The notion that these groups are doing this only because of their religion is largely inaccurate. Even where Muslims do become involved in suicide terrorism, they cite the same motivators that non-Muslim suicide terrorists do: violent occupations.

The grandmother in this article, to further the example, didn’t say “I did this because God told me to”, she did it because she was angry that her grandchildren were killed. And that’s what you’ll find is common to suicide terrorists the world around…fighting what they perceive to be a violent occupation, rather than a religious motivator.

 

[Montalban]

I am not saying you are wrong but I have never seen it in the Quran.

If you are going to pick on my Moslem sisters and brothers, lets talk about Christian terrorism, or is that too close to home?

It’s irrelevant.

If a Christian does something wrong, are they doing it because they are a Christian?

Unless you can find a causal link that joins the persons Christianity and the bad thing, then that person being Christian is irrelevant to that act.

Imagine a guy is 31, name’s Eric, has dark hair, blue eyes, votes liberal, is a vegetarian, goes to a Baptist church, only drives a 1970 mini and is married with two kids. He then goes and shoots someone.

Is the fact that he shot someone related to the fact he’s called Eric?

Probably not.

Therefore it is irrelevant to the fact that he shot someone.

Moslems perform acts of terror because it is seen as a legitimate way of increasing the realm of Islam.

 

[Montalban]

Is pro still trying to show that the terrorists are really just misunderstood teddy bears? I already proved him wrong on this stuff. I would have more respect for him if he would just admit that he supports Islamic terrorism. At least that’s honest.

I hope everyone saw the Fox special on Radical Islam. It should be required viewing for every American. Little kids holding guns, when asked what they were going to do with them, they respond “kill the JEWS!” Nice.

Anti-Semitic literature is quite popular in Arab nations. I also note that Pro universal’s not about looking to the fact that Islamic terrorism pre-dates Israel.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I see. So we only talk about bombings when Muslims commit them, but not Christians, because of your theories of which religion is more dangerous? That seems to beg the question.

The question thats begging is “which religion is posing the greatest threat to world peace?”

… Indonesia is a radioactive soup of different nationalities and cultures (at war with each other)…

How convenient of you to blame the problem of the largest Islamic country on multiculturalism.

Hmmm…you think the daily sectarian killings, presence of foreign troops, and state of open war might have something to do with it?

Actually, I do believe the presence of foreign troops is a problem with Iraq, even though the troops are trying to establish peace and democracy. It just seems to me that peace and democracy is a lost goal. How foolish of us to think Iraq would want peace and democracy.

Look at Afghanistan for a comparison. Before the US invasion, suicide bombing was unknown as a tactic…

Nonsense. Afghanistan was the mother of the modern world-wide terrorism. Do you really think Sept 11 was committed by Americans? It was committed by Arabs on tour. And the Taliban in Afghanistan had plenty to do with it.

Your problem is that you are letting your presupposition that Islam is bad drive all analysis of terrorism and warfare…

No. My problem is statistically, a suicide bomber is more likely to be muslim.

Islam may not be the cause of all suicide bombers. But political situations may not be the cause of suicide bombers too.

Pro_universal, would you settle to agree that Islam is the cause of some suicide bombers, and political situations is cause of other suicide bombers?

 

[cestusdei]

I am going to be flying oversees in a few weeks. When I get on the plane if I see a gaggle of nuns I will think nothing of it. But if I see a group of Muslims acting oddly then I will be watching. I suspect I am not the only one.

An interesting side issue: at the Cairo book fair this week the booths were well stocked with Mein Kampf. Anyone care to speculate as to why?

 

[pro_universal]

The question thats begging is “which religion is posing the greatest threat to world peace?”

And if the facts tell you that religion isn’t a factor, then your question is itself loaded, isn’t it?

How convenient of you to blame the problem of the largest Islamic country on multiculturalism.

Sorry, but that’s not what I did. It’s not “multiculturalism” that’s the problem, it’s having one culture ruling others by force. That is what is happening there. East Timor isn’t the only place that suffered ethnic warfare for the sake of a unified Indonesia.

Actually, I do believe the presence of foreign troops is a problem with Iraq, even though the troops are trying to establish peace and democracy. It just seems to me that peace and democracy is a lost goal. How foolish of us to think Iraq would want peace and democracy.

Yeah, especially at the point of a gun. How foolish of me to suspect that a bombing campaign and then military occupation with armed checkpoints all over the place might enrage the locals, regardless of the promise of “democracy” (aka-sectarian majority rule) it came with.

Nonsense. Afghanistan was the mother of the modern world-wide terrorism. Do you really think Sept 11 was committed by Americans? It was committed by Arabs on tour. And the Taliban in Afghanistan had plenty to do with it.

1. The Taliban are not Arabs. They only barely are interested in the international Islamic movement. (They are an ethnic group in Afghanistan, interested in pashtunwali, not sharia.)
2. Afghanistan had no suicide bombings before the US invasion. Read Pape’s study of all suicide bombings worldwide. He’s got a whole database of every incident, and the book covers it.
3. September 11th was committed by Arabs from a country that had US combat troops stationed there in order to prop up a brutal and unpopular dictatorship.

So I’m not sure what your analysis was on that point, but yeah…there is a definite connection to the Pape thesis on this point.

No. My problem is statistically, a suicide bomber is more likely to be muslim.

You keep repeating this as if a study hadn’t been done. This is a fact: Robert Pape of the University of Chicago has done a study of every single suicide bombing in modern times. Your assertion that suicide bombing is more likely to be done by Muslim fanatics is wrong. It is a documented false claim. The statistics disprove your claim definitively. I posted an article above, the book goes into more detail.

Islam may not be the cause of all suicide bombers. But political situations may not be the cause of suicide bombers too.

Well, the data has been collected and there is an extensive analysis out there for you to read. You keep repeating this as if it’s a valid claim, but the fact is, the research is done…you should try reading it.

Pro_universal, would you settle to agree that Islam is the cause of some suicide bombers, and political situations is cause of other suicide bombers?

No, because where there are Muslims but none of the other political factors, there is no suicide bombing. That is definitive proof that Islam isn’t the source of these activities. If it were, you would have suicide bombings in places without the political violence that seems to provoke suicide bombing in all religions…and there is no such phenomenon.

Try this: find one suicide bombing campaign connected to Islam alone, and not to a military occupation.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Your assertion that suicide bombing is more likely to be done by Muslim fanatics is wrong…

Silly me. Bye-bye.

 

[Montalban]

And if the facts tell you that religion isn’t a factor, then your question is itself loaded, isn’t it?

And Islam has the idea that if you kill for Al-lah, in the cause of spreading the religion, you’ll be rewarded.

 

[chosen_people]

Okay, tell me this then:

Are you not “giving legitimacy” to these acts by citing your own reasons? You claim that it is because of Arab hatred. That is a cause and a reason for the violence, in your eyes, is it not?

This standard is silly. What you are saying is that you don’t want any discussion of reasons that you don’t agree with. When I gave you facts to support my claim that the historical violence is playing a role, you just typed lots in big red caps and stopped trying to defend your claims.

Again, not all Palestinian terrorists are Muslim, and not all terrorists are Muslim. Israel produced Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein…are they not products of Israel, or are they not terrorists, in your eyes?

Baruch Goldstein, for those reading, shot and killed 29 Palestinians in Hebron while they were praying…and there’s now a shrine to his memory in that same settlement.

Yigal Amir is the man who shot Yitzak Rabin. I think we can all agree that this was terrorism. Yet, 30 percent of Israelis favor setting Yigal Amir free. Here’s the link: ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3320266,00.html

In other words, you live in a country where fully 1/3 of the population wants to set free a terrorist, yet you’re denying that this country’s policies have anything to do with provoking Palestinians or fostering a culture of hatred. I find that to be incredible.

And that’s good, since this is not what I’m trying to do. What I’m trying to do is point out that these killers are born and bred because of the conditions of violence in which they live, and Israel has a major hand in creating those conditions.

Would you not agree that what Baruch Goldstein did, and what Jewish terrorist groups have done over the years, are despicable killings that have contributed to the level of Palestinian hatred for Israelis? Or do we have to ignore despicable acts of murder by Jews and Israelis when we’re discussing Palestinians? If so…one question yet again: Why?

reply

**Did the Oklahoma City bombers make all Americans into terrorists in your opinion!!!
**

There have been an extremely small exceptional number of dispicable acts by Jewish fringe groups in Israel who felt that it was legitimate to retaliate to Palestinian Arab terrorisim tit for tat. They were dead wrong and Israel hunted them down, prosecuted them and sent them to jail the same way they do any other terrorist (we don’t impose trhe death sentence in trials - the only person ever sentenced to death after trial was the Nazi Adolph Eichmann who was hung in 1961 - I believe that Catholics hold similar views agsinst the death penalty).

Yigal Amir, a Jew, carried out a political assasination against the Israeli Primeminister. How exactly is that Jewish terrorism against Arab Palestinians?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I think we’ve covered this before but some people will not let facts get in the way of a good polemic.

In 2001 the USA only had 4805 military personnel in the entire country of Saudi Arabia - most of them fliers and mechanics enforcing the no-fly-zone over Iraq.

However, Islamists keep on claiming that as the justification for 9/11. heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/troopMarch2005.xls

See yer all,
Rodrigo Bivar

 

[Trad_Catholic_1]

I am going to be flying oversees in a few weeks. When I get on the plane if I see a gaggle of nuns I will think nothing of it. But if I see a group of Muslims acting oddly then I will be watching. I suspect I am not the only one.

Well take my tip. Don’t fly Gulf Air. You’ll have a heart attack. the planes are just full of muslims… And watch out for terrorists dressed as nuns.

Have a nice flight

 

[cestusdei]

Just today Saudi Arabia sentenced 20 foreigners to be flogged. Their terrible crime? Dancing and having a beer. Oh horrors. Now if we sentenced gitmo detainees to be flogged what would be the Muslim reaction?

In Pakistan 2 Christians were locked up for a month and tortured. Why? To convert them to Islam. “No coercion in religion” right? If we forced 2 Muslims to convert what kind of protests would we see? Btw, the 2 Christians did not convert, God bless them.

Any response pro? Oh, of course, it’s all THEIR fault for not being Muslim. How much terrorism do you have to see before you admit that Islam has/is a problem?

 

[Montalban]

Well take my tip. Don’t fly Gulf Air. You’ll have a heart attack. the planes are just full of muslims… And watch out for terrorists dressed as nuns.

Have a nice flight

Isn’t it fortunate that most don’t follow their religion that closely

 

[Booklover]

One picture is worth a thousand words! A Muslim mother tenderly taking care of her child!

http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/d/88-1/suicidekid.jpg