How about a Tridentine Mass with some English?

  • Thread starter Thread starter georgewithfaith
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

georgewithfaith

Guest
Why can’t we make a partially english version of the Tridentine Mass mandatory and discard our current Mass?

I was born in 1969 and was raised with the current Mass and have witnessed the decline of our Church and society. I am no expert on the Tridentine Mass but I have looked into it and believe we should go back to it because we desparately need a sense of the sacred at Mass.

Today most people don’t realize the importance of Mass. Otherwise, you would see a 180 degree change in the praise and glory they give to God. Everyone feels good at Mass and they pray for themselves. Priests are too afraid to take control and lead and educate their flocks.

We must continually remind each other that the Mass is the highest form of worship to God. Our prayers can do much good for sinners and souls in purgatory. Jesus takes us to Calvary where he is really crucified on the cross. The priest should face the crucifix and say every Mass with the utmost REVERENCE.
No Catholic church should ever go without a prominent crucifix of our Lord hanging over the altar.

I have seen translations of the Mass from Latin to English and those words honor and glorify God. I do not mind permanent deacons or lay people as lectors. However, the Latin words that introduce and conclude the readings and Gospel are beautiful and should be used and sung. We should go back to a majority of traditional Latin music. The choir should move to the back of the church so that the Mass does not become a performance for them.

Extraordinairy ministers should be eliminated or at least slashed to one or two per church. The priest and deacon can distribute communion and we should kneel and receive it on our tongue. If we need more priests than lets shorten the time they need for formation and put them to work!

I do like hearing the Eucharistic prayers said aloud and in Engllish but I would love to hear the concluding rite in Latin. Also, let us bring back the Leonine prayers after Mass and encourage the assembly to prayer in quiet.
 
I would love to see the entire EF in the vernacular, read as it is in the translations written in the missal. I love the current Mass in the vernacular, but I don’t think two forms are going to be workable in the long run (with all due respect and reverence to the Holy Father, who seems to think otherwise, who knows, maybe it will work). If one form had to go, it would obviously have to be the OF, though that can also be offered with “a sense of the sacred,” as you put it. I find the mixed Latin-English Mass done by EWTN too disjointed. I think they should pick one or the other (obviously, I think it should be all-vernacular, except for perhaps the “sung” or “common” portions, like the Kyire, the Gloria, the Sanctus, etc).
 
OP - I find your solution to be more desirable than the current situation. The Tridentine Mass, regardless of what language in which it is said, is beautiful and majestic. If we manage to face the altar with the priest, bring back the traditional music, and restore the rite to its glory, I say we’re making good progress (backwards progress, I suppose).

That said, there are advantages to praying and worshiping in a language invulnerable to change, and that has been held dear to the Church for so long. I am fully in support of the Holy Father in restoring the Traditional Latin Mass in its fullness.
 
Markstorm said:
OP - I find your solution to be more desirable than the current situation. The Tridentine Mass, regardless of what language in which it is said, is beautiful and majestic. If we manage to face the altar with the priest, bring back the traditional music, and restore the rite to its glory, I say we’re making good progress (backwards progress, I suppose).

That said, there are advantages to praying and worshiping in a language invulnerable to change, and that has been held dear to the Church for so long. I am fully in support of the Holy Father in restoring the Traditional Latin Mass in its fullness.
Click to expand...
But even the Holy Father has suggested that the EF could be offered in the vernacular.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
But even the Holy Father has suggested that the EF could be offered in the vernacular.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is true, and certainly I agree about this possibility. However, you proposed that:
we make a partially english version of the Tridentine Mass mandatory…
Click to expand...
And I do not believe this is the intent of the Holy Father. Certainly Summorum Pontificum seems to allow for celebration of Holy Mass in purely Latin should parishioners express such a desire, which would be impossible if an English (even partial) version were made mandatory.

Reading over your post though, perhaps I misunderstood your intention. Do you mean that either the partially English or the Latin version would be mandatory?
 
Markstorm said:
Yes, this is true, and certainly I agree about this possibility. However, you proposed that:

And I do not believe this is the intent of the Holy Father. Certainly Summorum Pontificum seems to allow for celebration of Holy Mass in purely Latin should parishioners express such a desire, which would be impossible if an English (even partial) version were made mandatory.

Reading over your post though, perhaps I misunderstood your intention. Do you mean that either the partially English or the Latin version would be mandatory?
Click to expand...
I think you’re refering to the OP, not to me.

What I would like to see (assuming that the two form system doesn’t work out) is this: every Sunday, in every parish in the world, the Mass in what we now call the EF would be offered in Latin at certain times and in the vernacular at certain times. What I would prefer not to see is how EWTN (and I love EWTN) does it, with the Gospel acclamation and response in Latin, then some English, then back to Latin, back and forth, etc. That’s what I think is disjointed, though, as I said, I have seen it work beautifully where almost everything was in the vernacular except the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, etc., those parts being sung.
 
Oh, my mistake. I was confused about who I was quoting.

I have no objections to the system that you propose. If I am correctly interpreting your remarks, you and I are similar in that we are not so adamant about eliminating NO as we are about guaranteeing that people enjoy optimal access to the EF.

As a side note though, I don’t think losing the NO would be a great loss, and in fact would probably be a benefit. Nonetheless, our great pope is brilliant and surely has his reasons.
 
 
georgewithfaith said:
Why can’t we make a partially english version of the Tridentine Mass mandatory and discard our current Mass?

I et.
Click to expand...
no because it would not be the Tridentine Mass, and a great deal of the objection among those who prefer it to the NO is the very fact of using the vernacular (not to mention the problems that arose in various translations of Latin to the vernacular, particularly the English translations).
 
puzzleannie said:
no because it would not be the Tridentine Mass, and a great deal of the objection among those who prefer it to the NO is the very fact of using the vernacular (not to mention the problems that arose in various translations of Latin to the vernacular, particularly the English translations).
Click to expand...
the tridentine mass would be the tridentine mass no matter what language it’s said in. croatia had a dispensation for a vernacular tridentine before vatican ii.
 
We do/did allow it. It was called the NO now the OF, but the form and manner was never enforced. It became what we see now in many parts of the world.
 
I think an English Tridentine Mass with the sung parts in Latin would be awesome.
 
But why not do this to the “Novus Ordo”? I would like to leave the Tridentine Mass alone, and use it to enrich the Novus Ordo, or to reform it!

I agree about the Leonine prayers, and about getting rid of EMHC’s when not required (and thus contrary to intention). However, I don’t agree about shortening the time for formation–those seven years are precious!
Semper_Fi said:
the tridentine mass would be the tridentine mass no matter what language it’s said in. croatia had a dispensation for a vernacular tridentine before vatican ii.
Click to expand...
Oooh; now that’s interesting! Part of me wants to agree with puzzleannie, but an equal part wants the Tridentine Mass in English, just to “sell it” to people. (Though I would not want to displace it; instead, I’d want a (perhaps Elizabethan) English translation as a “third option”.)
 
puzzleannie said:
no because it would not be the Tridentine Mass, and a great deal of the objection among those who prefer it to the NO is the very fact of using the vernacular (not to mention the problems that arose in various translations of Latin to the vernacular, particularly the English translations).
Click to expand...
With the deepest respect, Puzzleannie, it would still be the Tridentine. What about the translation already in the missals that the congregation follows when they assist at the EF now? Why not simply use that? And has it ceased to be the Tridentine because the people are following an vernacular translation?
 
First of all, there is no reason why more than one Mass in the Roman Rite couldn’t work out. Before Vatican 2, the Roman, Dominican, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Servite, Carmeilte, and Carthusian Rites all co-existed harmoniously, and believe or not, some of these are still in use today, though not very often. There is absolutely no conflict in having more than one Mass in the Roman Rite, an example that Eastern Catholics set–many of those Churches use the Liturgy of St. John Chrystosom on some occasions, St. Basil’s on others, and St. James’s on other occasions.

Also, I always said that a great step in making the liturgy more reverent, and more organic in its development would be to take the 1962 missal, translate it into English, add a reading, allow for ad populum, make it all audible, and make that the OF. The 1962 missal, of course, would continue to the EF alongside this. In short, there is no reason why the OF and EF can’t be textually the same–why the prayers were changed is beyond me.
 
georgewithfaith said:
Why can’t we make a partially english version of the Tridentine Mass mandatory and discard our current Mass?

I was born in 1969 and was raised with the current Mass and have witnessed the decline of our Church and society. I am no expert on the Tridentine Mass but I have looked into it and believe we should go back to it because we desparately need a sense of the sacred at Mass.

Today most people don’t realize the importance of Mass. Otherwise, you would see a 180 degree change in the praise and glory they give to God. Everyone feels good at Mass and they pray for themselves. Priests are too afraid to take control and lead and educate their flocks.

We must continually remind each other that the Mass is the highest form of worship to God. Our prayers can do much good for sinners and souls in purgatory. Jesus takes us to Calvary where he is really crucified on the cross. The priest should face the crucifix and say every Mass with the utmost REVERENCE.
No Catholic church should ever go without a prominent crucifix of our Lord hanging over the altar.

I have seen translations of the Mass from Latin to English and those words honor and glorify God. I do not mind permanent deacons or lay people as lectors. However, the Latin words that introduce and conclude the readings and Gospel are beautiful and should be used and sung. We should go back to a majority of traditional Latin music. The choir should move to the back of the church so that the Mass does not become a performance for them.

Extraordinairy ministers should be eliminated or at least slashed to one or two per church. The priest and deacon can distribute communion and we should kneel and receive it on our tongue. If we need more priests than lets shorten the time they need for formation and put them to work!

I do like hearing the Eucharistic prayers said aloud and in Engllish but I would love to hear the concluding rite in Latin. Also, let us bring back the Leonine prayers after Mass and encourage the assembly to prayer in quiet.
Click to expand...
George,
I have to heartily agree with just about everything you’ve said. I was raised on the Tridentine Mass and had no problem with the Latin. Latin was on one side of the Missal, English on the other. We were learning two languages right at Mass. I sometimes like the participation aloud, and sometimes even liked the English unless meaning was changed in translation. Some Latin Mass churches permit, while in others, the priests quietly read the prayers - but I know them all by heart and say them anyway.

Extraordinary ministers? Ugh. No offense but - That’s why priests’ hands are consecrated. It’s the utmost honor a priest has when he is ordained - to be the one who consecrates and handles the Host. I’ve watched one of these ministers (a woman) administering Holy Communion (during Novus Ordo) in one of those long-sweater outfits, red tights and boots. No skirt or slacks, that I recall. Can you imagine her standing alongside the altar with the priest sitting there? I was appalled - and I’m no prude.

I LOVE - the Leonine prayers afterward - so sorely needed in our world now more than ever. Not to mention, in those occasional churches where the dead and the sick might still be mentioned before the sermon, and parishioners kneel to say a Hail Mary…Oh, the good ol’ days.

Curiously, the powers that be has become insistent about the difficulty of Latin (uh - the English was on the other side of the Missal - we learned as we prayed) and we’re told how much more relevant the vernacular is - in any country - for participation, et., while in America, for example, we are encouraged - if not expected - to learn other languages to accomodate new cultures arriving. Latin - is our Church’s culture.

Sadly, while introducing the vernacular was expected to entice more active participation, it wasn’t until the New Mass that I watched in amazement, as a girl sat and read a novel during Mass.

Frustrated over it all but
praying for God’s blessings,
Conservative
 
JKirkLVNV said:
With the deepest respect, Puzzleannie, it would still be the Tridentine. What about the translation already in the missals that the congregation follows when they assist at the EF now? Why not simply use that? And has it ceased to be the Tridentine because the people are following an vernacular translation?
Click to expand...
I will repeat Kirk, the question that you have so skillfully and deliberately dodged since the inception of this argument. Since you, the lay person doesn’ t hear the majority of the Mass anyway what difference would it make to you? It doesn’t unless you are also advocating that the entire Mass be audible and “modernized” in other areas as well perhaps, which is what I think it is all about anyway.
 
georgewithfaith said:
Why can’t we make a partially english version of the Tridentine Mass mandatory and discard our current Mass?

I was born in 1969 and was raised with the current Mass and have witnessed the decline of our Church and society. I am no expert on the Tridentine Mass but I have looked into it and believe we should go back to it because we desparately need a sense of the sacred at Mass.

Today most people don’t realize the importance of Mass. Otherwise, you would see a 180 degree change in the praise and glory they give to God. Everyone feels good at Mass and they pray for themselves. Priests are too afraid to take control and lead and educate their flocks.

We must continually remind each other that the Mass is the highest form of worship to God. Our prayers can do much good for sinners and souls in purgatory. Jesus takes us to Calvary where he is really crucified on the cross. The priest should face the crucifix and say every Mass with the utmost REVERENCE.
No Catholic church should ever go without a prominent crucifix of our Lord hanging over the altar.

I have seen translations of the Mass from Latin to English and those words honor and glorify God. I do not mind permanent deacons or lay people as lectors. However, the Latin words that introduce and conclude the readings and Gospel are beautiful and should be used and sung. We should go back to a majority of traditional Latin music. The choir should move to the back of the church so that the Mass does not become a performance for them.

Extraordinairy ministers should be eliminated or at least slashed to one or two per church. The priest and deacon can distribute communion and we should kneel and receive it on our tongue. If we need more priests than lets shorten the time they need for formation and put them to work!

I do like hearing the Eucharistic prayers said aloud and in Engllish but I would love to hear the concluding rite in Latin. Also, let us bring back the Leonine prayers after Mass and encourage the assembly to prayer in quiet.
Click to expand...
 
I am 74 and was brought up with the values of pre Vactican 2 council I have four good children born since the council with my eldest son born in 1967,they have all left the church and are lapsed.I hope one day they will return,however I too cant face the banal mass offered today with as you say,no sense of the sacred,and the many abuses and ireverence to the real presence that passes as normal today.The treacherous clergy have a lot to answer for with their betrayal of the faithfull.Yet the liberal/left still cling to the opinion that they are right in every way,even though the young have left the church in droves,Ordinatios to the priesthood and the religious life have plummeted and so on.Now its said that there are not enough priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass (for all time) though priests can be found for concelebrated masses and any other trendy issue that takes their fancy,Unfortunately you missed all the wonders of the pre V2 days,but hopefully you and others can lead the church to something of what it once was
 
Annie,

What many people seem to forget is that Latin WAS the vernacular at the time…that’s why it switched to Latin from Aramaic.

If we REALLY want to be traditionalists, we should the entire Mass in Aramaic, like the Eastern Rites do.

That being said, I would love to see the Tridentine Mass (in English) with the responses and prayers in Latin…as the original poster suggested.

I adisagree, however, that the EWTN Mass is disjointed. I find it to be beautifully done. I have been there live, when I was there taping The Journey Home a couple of years ago, and the Mass is done with reverence, holiness and devotion.
puzzleannie said:
no because it would not be the Tridentine Mass, and a great deal of the objection among those who prefer it to the NO is the very fact of using the vernacular (not to mention the problems that arose in various translations of Latin to the vernacular, particularly the English translations).
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top