How about Catholicism WITH Anglicanism?

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chris_molter

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Since there’s been so much acrimony with Anglican/Episcopalian vs Catholic threads lately, I thought I’d start a thread with a more positive view:

walsingham.org.uk/

See, here’s at least ONE thing we do well together! 😃
 
Since there’s been so much acrimony with Anglican/Episcopalian vs Catholic threads lately, I thought I’d start a thread with a more positive view:

walsingham.org.uk/

See, here’s at least ONE thing we do well together! 😃
Yep.

Have I mentioned that the small Mary shrine in my parish is a figure of the BVM as OL of Walsingham? Our assistant priest has a special devotion to her.

GKC
 
I agree. However, it is worth remembering that the original shrine was desecrated by the Anglicans. I believe the original statue of Our Lady was taken to London and burned.
 
I agree. However, it is worth remembering that the original shrine was desecrated by the Anglicans. I believe the original statue of Our Lady was taken to London and burned.
Talk about raining on a parade…

But, thanks for the history lesson!

God Bless!
 
I think I have to agree with the comment about on-parade rainage.

I mean, isn’t that a little like if a Roman Catholic said to an Eastern Orthodox “You know, I heard that the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople prayed together yesterday!” and then the Eastern Orthodox responded “Yes, but let’s not forget that Constantinople was the city that was sacked by the Fourth Crusade.”
 
Well as a conservative Anglican I have heard of Walsingham. I have nothing against a shrine dedicated to Our Lady, I have nothing against PROPER honour paid to her, but unfortunately Roman Marian Dogmas and Roman “Devotions” to Mary go TOO far. As an Anglican I firmly hold to the 39 Articles of Religion which in Article XXII (22) states:

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

I also note that on the Anglican site of the Walsingham Shrine the gift shop sells Latin/Roman Catholic Rosaries, something a conservative and authentic Anglican would never agree with or do. Sign me “Catholic, but not Roman”
 
Did you know that Romish is a horribly offensive slur?
I am merely quoting from the 39 Articles, no slur intended, but we must understand that the 39 Articles and other Confessions of Faith of the Reformers, not to mention works written by Roman Catholics were at that time written in the context of strong polemics. One must take these statements in the context of the era they were written in. Sign me “Catholic, but not Roman”.
 
Well, that lasted for all of three posts before taking off downhill… :rolleyes:

How about we go with the stated purpose of the thread, which is Catholicism WITH Anglicanism. There are about 4+ active threads about the differences and points of contention if you want to nurse old wounds (the stripping of the altars and the dissolution of the monasteries) or refight the Reformation all over again. 🤷
 
Well as a conservative Anglican I have heard of Walsingham. I have nothing against a shrine dedicated to Our Lady, I have nothing against PROPER honour paid to her, but unfortunately Roman Marian Dogmas and Roman “Devotions” to Mary go TOO far. As an Anglican I firmly hold to the 39 Articles of Religion which in Article XXII (22) states:

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

I also note that on the Anglican site of the Walsingham Shrine the gift shop sells Latin/Roman Catholic Rosaries, something a conservative and authentic Anglican would never agree with or do. Sign me “Catholic, but not Roman”
Odd. I’m a conservative and authentic Anglican and I have no problem with Walsingham. Nor with rosaries; every member of my family, including my ordained Anglican deacon son in law, has one.

OTOH, I have a problem with the Articles, as a formal document.

All sorts of Anglicans out there. Beware of generalizations.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus Catholicus
 
I have recently spent the last few days at Walsingham at the Youth 2000 event that went on.

The Anglican shrine is certainly very beautiful with statues of Saints like the Cure of Ars. Also, they do “Eucharistic adoration” with Benediction, Procession, Organ.

It’s certainly very outwardly Catholic and indeed, I picked up a leaflet there about “Authority in the Anglican Church” and it spoke very candidly about the lack of authority and the need of unity with the “Bishop of Rome.”

However, the interior unity isn’t there yet. But let’s face it, it’s an Shrine to Our Lady and if anyone can destroy heresy and schism, it’s Our Lady.

I have great hopes for many of the high Anglicans, despire the recently unfortunate developments.

JD
 
Odd. I’m a conservative and authentic Anglican and I have no problem with Walsingham. Nor with rosaries; every member of my family, including my ordained Anglican deacon son in law, has one.

OTOH, I have a problem with the Articles, as a formal document.

All sorts of Anglicans out there. Beware of generalizations.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus Catholicus
I guess the thing is, high-church Anglican and low-church Anglican have two pretty different ideas about what a “conservative Anglican” is (albeit largely agreeing with respect to morality).
 
I guess the thing is, high-church Anglican and low-church Anglican have two pretty different ideas about what a “conservative Anglican” is (albeit largely agreeing with respect to morality).
One might say that.

GKC
 
I guess the thing is, high-church Anglican and low-church Anglican have two pretty different ideas about what a “conservative Anglican” is (albeit largely agreeing with respect to morality).
Wait…Who are you calling low church??😉

God Bless!
 
Odd. I’m a conservative and authentic Anglican and I have no problem with Walsingham. Nor with rosaries; every member of my family, including my ordained Anglican deacon son in law, has one.

OTOH, I have a problem with the Articles, as a formal document.

All sorts of Anglicans out there. Beware of generalizations.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus Catholicus
Well that’s just it GKC. Not to be offensive but ANYONE who claims to BE an Anglican MUST hold to the three Historic Creeds, IE Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian AND the 39 Articles of Religion, CF “The Jerusalem Declaration” issued by the GAFCON meeting this past summer. It’s high time REAL Anglicans spoke out and reaffirm what it means TO BE an Anglican. Don’t get me wrong I AM quite “High Church” and “Smells and Bells”, BUT I am not an Anglo-Catholic in that I seek no reunion with Rome on Rome’s terms. It may not seem so but there is a BIG difference between being “High Church” and “Anglo-Catholic”. As a conservative Evangelical/High Church Anglican I REJECT all those Roman Dogmas that authentic Anglicanism rejects, IE Purgatory, Marian Dogmas, Papal Infallibility, Justification by “Meriting Grace” (a contradiction). I am sorry my friend an Anglican who REJECTS the historic Anglican Divines (Hooker, Ridley, Andrewes, and the Caroline Divines) and the 39 Articles of Religion and the historic BCPs, 1662, American 1928, is simply NOT an Anglican. Period

Sign me “Catholic, but not Roman”
 
Don’t get me wrong I AM quite “High Church” and “Smells and Bells”, BUT I am not an Anglo-Catholic in that I seek no reunion with Rome on Rome’s terms.
Actually, I’m glad you pointed that out. I know I, for one, am often guilty of forgetting or ignoring that distinction.
Well that’s just it GKC. Not to be offensive but ANYONE who claims to BE an Anglican MUST hold to the three Historic Creeds, IE Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian AND the 39 Articles of Religion, CF “The Jerusalem Declaration” issued by the GAFCON meeting this past summer. It’s high time REAL Anglicans spoke out and reaffirm what it means TO BE an Anglican.
Well considering that Roman Catholics don’t all agree that there have been 21 ecumenical councils (some of us say that there have only been 7), I would have deem any attempt to united Anglicans around being-Anglican-entails-acceptance-of-the-39-articles, to be an over-ambitious project. (Not that it’s any of my business. 😉 :o )
 
Well that’s just it GKC. Not to be offensive but ANYONE who claims to BE an Anglican MUST hold to the three Historic Creeds, IE Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian AND the 39 Articles of Religion, CF “The Jerusalem Declaration” issued by the GAFCON meeting this past summer. It’s high time REAL Anglicans spoke out and reaffirm what it means TO BE an Anglican. Don’t get me wrong I AM quite “High Church” and “Smells and Bells”, BUT I am not an Anglo-Catholic in that I seek no reunion with Rome on Rome’s terms. It may not seem so but there is a BIG difference between being “High Church” and “Anglo-Catholic”. As a conservative Evangelical/High Church Anglican I REJECT all those Roman Dogmas that authentic Anglicanism rejects, IE Purgatory, Marian Dogmas, Papal Infallibility, Justification by “Meriting Grace” (a contradiction). I am sorry my friend an Anglican who REJECTS the historic Anglican Divines (Hooker, Ridley, Andrewes, and the Caroline Divines) and the 39 Articles of Religion and the historic BCPs, 1662, American 1928, is simply NOT an Anglican. Period

Sign me “Catholic, but not Roman”
Wrong. Not offensive, just wrong.

One can just as easily say that anyone who rejects the Tractarians is not Anglican. There is an elasticity in the term and always has been, since the Elizabethan Compromise. It makes as much sense (i.e., none) to claim that an Anglican must be in communion with Canterbury. Which neither you nor I am. We both are authentic Anglicans, just the same. Different, but Anglican.

The Articles are not a form of Anglican Confession, *a la *Westminister. Anglicanism is Creedal, not confessional, and any one who rejects the major Creeds is not Anglican (or Christian for that matter). No Anglican save ordinands of the Church of England, due to the Erastian nature of the CoE, are required to affirm the Articles (and that only technically) . Any other Anglican or Anglican jurisdiction, is free to affirm, partially affirm, reject, partially reject, or ignore the Articles, as a formal document. Or cut them from the Prayer Book and use them to kindle the new fire at Easter. They are historical remnants from the Compromise, how Liz chose to govern her fractious Church. One of the few things I like about the 1979 book is the historical section, where the Articles are now found. Regardless of what the folks at GAFCON declared. There are all sorts of Anglicans. Always have been.

Note: I admire the disticntion you make, quite accurately, between the concpet of high Church, and that of Anglo-Catholic. I point this out all the time, though it’s a trifle esoteric. High church/low church refers to churchmanship: how many candles and how much smoke (a thing that you would have been low church on, as REC 150 years ago, of necessity). Anglo-Catholic/reformed/evangelical is a dimension of doctrine. And, like it or not, Anglo-Catholics are authentic Anglicans. That battle was won long ago.And I know of very few Anglo-Catholics who seek reunion with Rome on Rome’s terms. If they did, it’s easy to achieve. It’s called submission.

Period.

GKC

*posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus Catholicus *
 
Actually, I’m glad you pointed that out. I know I, for one, am often guilty of forgetting or ignoring that distinction.

Well considering that Roman Catholics don’t all agree that there have been 21 ecumenical councils (some of us say that there have only been 7), I would have deem any attempt to united Anglicans around being-Anglican-entails-acceptance-of-the-39-articles, to be an over-ambitious project. (Not that it’s any of my business. 😉 :o )
Not to worry. It’s not only overly ambitious, it’s historically wrong.

GKC
 
I have recently spent the last few days at Walsingham at the Youth 2000 event that went on.

The Anglican shrine is certainly very beautiful with statues of Saints like the Cure of Ars. Also, they do “Eucharistic adoration” with Benediction, Procession, Organ.

It’s certainly very outwardly Catholic and indeed, I picked up a leaflet there about “Authority in the Anglican Church” and it spoke very candidly about the lack of authority and the need of unity with the “Bishop of Rome.”

However, the interior unity isn’t there yet. But let’s face it, it’s an Shrine to Our Lady and if anyone can destroy heresy and schism, it’s Our Lady.

I have great hopes for many of the high Anglicans, despire the recently unfortunate developments.

JD
An authentic Anglican would NEVER seek reunion with Rome on Rome’s terms. It is JUST the type of “goings on” at Walsingham you describe that the Anglican Reform did away with and got rid of as so much unbiblical and non-Apostolic nonsense. Our Lady, who no doubt is in Heaven, must be weeping over how so many Christians have replaced Jesus with devotion to Her. I see myself as following TRUE Marian piety and devotion by listening to what Our Lady told us in Holy Scripture, the last INSPIRED words Our Lady spoke:

His mother (Mary, Our Lady) said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” John 2:5 English Standard Version

There was a time I considered and actually DID “cross the Tiber” briefly. But the more I studied Church History and the unique Roman Dogmas the more I saw Rome as in many ways straying from authentic Apostolic Christianity. Two things caused me to swim back across the Tiber FROM Rome and back to the Anglican Way. The Semi- and Neo-Pelagianism of the Council of Trent with its Doctrines of “Meriting” Grace and Justification by “works-righteousness”, that “I” must “Merit” final Justification. The other thing was I read “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, plus St. Louis deMontfort. To be honest it made me want to “hurl”, how dare these men for all practical purposes elevate Mary to a status of almost a goddess. These men should have regarded as heretics not Saints. As an Anglican I firmly hold to Scripture as containing ALL that is necessary to Salvation, from the Anglican 39 Articles of Religion:

VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation.

Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.

Sign me “Catholic, but not Roman”
 
Grace & Peace!
Wrong. Not offensive, just wrong.

…snip…] GKC

*posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus Catholicus *
GKC, I thank God for you.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
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