How and why did the Tabernacle get put to the side?

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Tabernacles off in its own room is a good idea for parishes that has regular adoration.
Your assertion might satisfy some Catholics but not all.

What would give any Catholic reason to genuflect in the nave of the Church towards the traditional space allocated on the Sanctuary towards the holy presence in the Tabernacle.

During Mass the focal point is the Altar of Sacrifice.

Hiding the Tabernacle in a separate Chapel or adjoining room away from the Sanctuary is like leaving the Sanctuary barren of any holy presence outside the Mass itself.

I’ve seen some Catholic Churches remove the traditional Crucifix that most often dominates the center Sanctuary wall seen in many Catholic Churches.

When asked why these dominant Crucifixes in Sanctuaries are removed?
The Priest or Parish Council will rationalize duplication with the processional cross.

This is nothing but unadulterated liberalism and new age liturgical abuse

How does the Altar duplicate the Tabernacle or vice-versa? 🤷

:confused:
 
I’ve seen some Catholic Churches remove the traditional Crucifix that most often dominates the center Sanctuary wall seen in many Catholic Churches.

When asked why these dominant Crucifixes in Sanctuaries are removed?
The Priest or Parish Council will rationalize duplication with the processional cross.

This is nothing but unadulterated liberalism and new age liturgical abuse
It should actually be the opposite, as indicated in the GIRM: put the processional cross out of sight until it’s needed for the recessional.
 
Assuming that the parents or grandparents do that. The Tabernacle is front and centre in my parish and most people ignore its presence completely.
One reality that has not been mentioned is that modern society is very rude, especially in the more developed sectors of society. I find that poorer communities are much more polite.

Church is not the only place where silence and respect you be observed and is often violated. Watch what happens at a movie theater, in a classroom or the lecture hall. People sit there and prattle on as if they were at a stadium.

I should know, I taught university students for years. During my early years they were very polite. By the time I retired, I had to stop and wait for them to finish their chattering, texting, telephone conversation or whatever they were doing. They would look at me as if nothing was wrong. I, on the other hand, stood there wondering, “What’s wrong with this picture?”

You’ll find poor manners everywhere. There was a post here, sometime last week. A poster shared at how at his EF mass the folks were chatting, inappropriately dressed and a few other things that disappointed him or her.

Good manners seem to be a commodity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You are correct it is a personal passion, but you are wrong to declare it is “…devoid of knowledge…” for it is full of knowledge and love for our SAVIOR and LORD. And full of tradition, which is one of the three pillars upon which or faith rests.
Actually, the excellent posts by Brother JR give more than a little weight to the fact that your personal passion is based on emotions rather than historical fact. The tradition of which is you speak is apparently unknown to you (and me, until recently…thank you Brother JR).
Your are very rude and insensitivity in your repsonses.
I’m sorry you feel that way, as I do not mean to come across as such. It is simply a response to people making false, ignorant and unwarranted claims about things that they apparently know nothing about. Just because things are not the way we personally want them does not mean that they are wrong, especially when we don’t know the facts behind them. The Church is criticized enough by those outside of it; do we really need those on the inside criticizing it, too???
 
It should actually be the opposite, as indicated in the GIRM: put the processional cross out of sight until it’s needed for the recessional.
Yes it does mention this in the GIRM.
But its not always adhered to.
 
The opinion is not nonsense and your insensitivity to the explaination delineates a lack of knowing the significance of the TRUE PRESENCE in Adoration and on the alter. It is a good thing, but it should not be an either/or scenario. Removing the tabernacle does indeed remove JESUS from HIS altar and removes the sacredness of the church. It is no longer the place where JESUS dwells, it is now a “meeting room”. To lose the TRUE PRESENCE of JESUS in our churches is to begin losing our faith, by allowing it to fade into commoness, similarity with those who “protest” HIS TRUE PRESENCE.
Can you honestly read your own quote and say that it isn’t nonsense? Jesus is indeed present in a Church whether the tabernacle is front and center or in a side chapel. Why do you rake yourself over the coals about something that you are simply mistaken on? How does the tabernacle in a side chapel "lose the TRUE PRESENCE OF JESUS in our churches?"
 
Hiding the Tabernacle in a separate Chapel or adjoining room away from the Sanctuary is like leaving the Sanctuary barren of any holy presence outside the Mass itself.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record. Look at monastery churches.
I’ve seen some Catholic Churches remove the traditional Crucifix that most often dominates the center Sanctuary wall seen in many Catholic Churches.
When asked why these dominant Crucifixes in Sanctuaries are removed?
The Priest or Parish Council will rationalize duplication with the processional cross.
You’re only supposed to have one crucifix. It should be on the altar or near the altar such as a wall. It can also be an icon instead of a crucifix or a cross, if your parish is run by a religious order that does not use crucifixes.
How does the Altar duplicate the Tabernacle or vice-versa?
They’re not supposed to duplicate each other. That’s what I’ve been trying to say. St. Francis had two very different ideas. The tabernacle was for Eucharistic adoration. The altar was for sacrifice. He understood this. He had inherited this from the monks.

Since he did not have a monastery, he placed both in the same space. It carried through Europe and became very common and popular.

That’s why the Church allows you to use either arrangement. You can have it as the monks have it, to adjacent spaces or as Francis did, both in the same space.

Both are equally good. I’m not certain why some posters here can’t simply accept that we have two legitimate customs and both have roots in very holy traditions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’m a little confused about the tabernacle placement in the Eastern Catholic Churches. Do all of them have the tabernacle on the altar? I’m asking because we have an EC parish that has the altar and the tabernacle, but not together.

It’s not that important. When you’re celebrating the mass you’re not focusing on the tabernacle in any of our rites. It’s just my curiosity.
I am not an Eastern Catholic,so my knowledge isn’t very expansive, but I believe the Tabernacle is kept on a seperate table slightly to the side of the Altar behind the Iconostasis. So it is essentally still on the altar.
The history of the placement of the tabernacle in the Latin Church is a rather confusing one. My take on what I have read is that until Francis came on the scene, there Blessed Sacrament on the altar was not a consistent practice. There are references to tabernacles in the ancient Church. There are also references to the figure of a dove over what may have been the altar of sacrifice, then we have the Middle Ages. There were two kinds of churches, monastery churches and cathedrals. The parish church, as we know it today, is an innovation. Most monasteries have chapels on the outskirts of towns. A monk or a secular priest would be sent out there to celebrate the mass, usually on holy days. Many were abandoned. That’s how St. Francis comes across St. Mary of the Angels and San Damiano.
What we know, looking at ancient architecture is that the Blessed Sacrament was not on the main altar and not on the sanctuary proper. It was on a side altar or an adjacent chapel that could be easily reached from the sanctuary, but not visible from the pews. A lot depended on the religious order that owned the church.
The monks had several worship spaces. They prayed the Liturgy of the Hours in one place. They celebrated the mass in another space. And they had oratories for private prayer.
That’s very interesting, Brother. Saint Francis seemed to be quite the revolutionary.
As I’m pointing to Laszlo, these spaces are considered sacred. These men and women would be very offended if you tell them that their church, without the Blessed Sacrament, is a town hall. We should all be upset at that thought. These traditions are ancient. They predate the church with tabernacle in the center. They sustained the faith through some of the darkest periods in church history.
I couldn’t agree more. I think it’s vital to realize that our own spiritual praxis is not the only one in the Church; there are the Eastern Rites, the Ordinary and Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, the Ambrosian and Mozarbic rites, and the various Rites partticular to Religious Orders. And these are just Mass rites, not to mention the various cultural innovations that are allowed, such as Liturgical dance being approved for African churches.
I believe that we can take the same approach as St. Francis. He needed the tabernacle in his chapels. He did the best he could to place it in place of reverence and safety. He loved it. However, he also spoke and treated the other traditions with great humility and respect and he taught us (his sons and daughters) to do the same.
He certainly is a great example for our times, especially with all of the liturgical disagreement.
Observe the different use of space in a typical monastery church, which was more common before the Franciscan movement was born.
View attachment 10196 In the chapter, you have an altar, but not tabernacle
View attachment 10197 In the choir, which doubles as a church for this particular house, you have a tabernacle that is exposed.
View attachment 10198 However, when the choir is converted to a church for the celebration of the mass, observe the covering over the tabernacle that was not there in the picture above.
None of these looks like a meeting hall. That’s my only objection to the way that this is being presented, as if the tabernacle on the altar was always the case and as if those that do not have it are doing something wrong.
These are beautiful images Brother. Is this a Carthusian monastery?
 
I am not an Eastern Catholic,so my knowledge isn’t very expansive, but I believe the Tabernacle is kept on a separate table slightly to the side of the Altar behind the Iconostasis. So it is essentially still on the altar.
I guess that where we fall into the trap of semantics. To me, that’s not the altar as in the altar of sacrifice. That’s what in a Franciscan house would be called the Blessed Sacrament altar, without the Iconostasis.
That’s very interesting, Brother. Saint Francis seemed to be quite the revolutionary.
Today, Traditionalists would not welcome him on several counts.
  • He placed the tabernacle on the sanctuary.
  • He did not use Gregorian chant in his houses. The Liturgy of the Hours was recited not chanted.
  • He introduced vernacular hymns into the liturgy.
  • He demanded that his friars vow unquestioning obedience to him and he vowed unquestioning obedience to the pope and bishops.
  • He demanded obedience even when authority was in error, unless authority commanded actual sin.
  • He introduced pageants into liturgy and 3-dimensional reproductions of scripture (Christmas crèche, stations of the cross, the passion play).
  • His order was the first that admitted priests on the condition that they be religious brothers. In other words, in his houses (to this day) the lines between the ordained and non-cleric are visible only when celebrating the sacraments.
  • He allowed the ordained friars to celebrate mass on boards placed over rocks on the side of the road.
  • He asked Pope Honorius for a simpler form of the mass, because the form in use required too many books and the friars were too poor to buy them. Pope Honorius gave him a missal with a form that the friars carried through Europe. Later, Trent and Pius V would adopt it and shape it into what we often refer to as the Tridentine Mass.
  • He promoted the veneration of the Immaculate Conception when it was still a hot debate.
  • He founded a religious family that would have five rules, written by him, but the freedom to organize itself into smaller units called obediences according to need, culture and circumstances.
  • He founded the first order for secular men and women.
I would say that he was quite a revolutionary, while at the same time, the most faithful servant of the Church and the most orthodox of men. 🙂
He certainly is a great example for our times, especially with all of the liturgical disagreement.
His confidence in the Church and Divine Providence is second only to that of Christ and the Blessed Mother. That’s why popes have referred to him as “The Mirror of Perfection”, “The Perfect Christian” and “The Seraphic Father”. In a recent scoling of the Italian bishops the Holy Father pointed out that they need to obey the pope as St. Francis did, without question and without second-guessing him. Common sense understands that this does not include sin. The point is that to this day, the Church holds him up as the model of obedience and fidelity to authority.
These are beautiful images Brother. Is this a Carthusian monastery?
It’s Transfiguration in Vermont. It’s modified a bit. The one space doubles as a chapel and choir. In the old architecture this would have been two separate spaces or adjacent, usually in the form of an L.

We must show respect in speaking about the use of space, because these customs were not pulled out of someone’s sleeves. They’re venerable and ancient. What changes is human behavior, not the sacredness of a space.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I am going to need to do some research, but it is my recollection that tabernacles basically did not exist as we know them until sometime into the 9th century, and it was not until the 10th century that they were in the church itself. At one point in early Church history, people would take the Blessed Sacrament to their homes.

Further, many of the cathedrals in Europe were designed with the tabernacle off to the side rather than on the main altar; the tourism of cathedrals started many centuries after they were built and was not the source of moving the tabernacle; it was off to the side to begin with.
 
I’ve heard it said that the most important part of Church is the Altar because it represents Christ’s Death that’s why we in fact always bow facing the Altar.
 
Your opinion is nonsense. As ConstantineTG said, "Tabernacles off in its own room is a good idea for parishes that has regular adoration. " Adoration has been growing in many parishes. It is a GOOD thing.
Generalizing is always a dangerous thing, I realize. I have been to hundreds of parishes across North America in the last 20 years. The vast majority of them have NOT removed the tabernacle in order to place it in a single purpose chapel with the goal of establishing Eucharistic Adoration. Not many at all, in fact. Most places I have been, the tabernacle has been simply shunted aside within the mildly ‘renovated’ church building, often in a nook originally designed by the architect to house a statue or Marian shrine. The message seems clear to me!

My own parish has a nice Eucharistic chapel far removed from the church itself. So far that they added a separate tabernacle inside the church; in a corner, behind a large column. It’s the closest thing to an architectural insult I can imagine.

I’m fine with architectural innovations that are respectful. But I do believe that architecture that deliberately puts the tabernacle in the room, but in a place that suggests it is of secondary importance is a bad idea and I scoff at assertions that the widespread occurence of this is due simply to well intentioned, but widespread architectural illiteracy.
 
At the risk of sounding like a broken record. Look at monastery churches.

They’re not supposed to duplicate each other. That’s what I’ve been trying to say. St. Francis had two very different ideas. The tabernacle was for Eucharistic adoration. The altar was for sacrifice. He understood this. He had inherited this from the monks.

Since he did not have a monastery, he placed both in the same space. It carried through Europe and became very common and popular.

That’s why the Church allows you to use either arrangement. You can have it as the monks have it, to adjacent spaces or as Francis did, both in the same space.

Both are equally good. I’m not certain why some posters here can’t simply accept that we have two legitimate customs and both have roots in very holy traditions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Brother J.R.

With all due respect; do you think the central High Altar and Tabernacle seen in the Latin Mass should have been set up like that in a Monastery?

Even during the Traditional Latin Mass prior to the mid 1960’s before the Novus Ordo was implemented their were formerly three Tabernacles in my present parish.

The central High-Altar and two Repository’s off to the far left and right of the Sanctuary so priests could quietly enter and bring Holy Viaticum to the sick on Solemnities.

Even in a Monastery the Tabernacle is resemblance more as a side altar Repository similar as seen where the consecrated hosts is reserved from Maundy Thursday until after Good Friday.

It’s strange how furnishings have changed in the church over the last 46 years.
No uniformity from going church to church. Some Catholic Churches you go to where the Novus Ordo is said still have a central High Tabernacle behind the Altar.

Other Novus Ordo churches had their High Altars and Tabernacles ripped from their walls as superfluous garbage after the Novus Ordo was instituted.

Now today we have small little trinket boxes either recessed in walls or sitting on a small credence-like table. Hardly anything resemblance in the least as edifying.

And of course now in many western Catholic Churches we see the Tabernacle removed entirely from the Sanctuary.

I sometimes feel the sentiments of Mary Magdalene who said to the Gardener "They Have Taken My Lord Away and I Do Not Know Where They Have Laid Him.

No disrespect to you Brother J.R. but if I feel a sense of loss and being perturbed by so many changes happening without explanation it does make me feel unsettled at times.

Of course I’m generally just a go with the flow Catholic who shuts his mouth.

Peace
Chris
 
You mention Eucharisticum Mysterium # 55, but purposely chose to ignore what it says, choosing to read # 54 instead.
I read it. The author does not like having the Eucharist in the tabernacle on the altar at the start of Mass. For support, he cites Inter Oecumenici #9, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the placement of the tabernacle, the reservation of the Blessed Sacrament, or the author’s four presences of Christ theory. His suggestion to keep Jesus away from the altar at the start of Mass could be put into practice without moving the tabernacle, simply by emptying the tabernacle.

#54 on the other hand, directly and specifically addresses the placement of the tabernacle and it provides a citation that is both relevant and in conformity with the Church tradition and the canon law of the time.
 
Brother J.R.

With all due respect; do you think the central High Altar and Tabernacle seen in the Latin Mass should have been set up like that in a Monastery?

Even during the Traditional Latin Mass prior to the mid 1960’s before the Novus Ordo was implemented their were formerly three Tabernacles in my present parish.

The central High-Altar and two Repository’s off to the far left and right of the Sanctuary so priests could quietly enter and bring Holy Viaticum to the sick on Solemnities.

Even in a Monastery the Tabernacle is resemblance more as a side altar Repository similar as seen where the consecrated hosts is reserved from Maundy Thursday until after Good Friday.

It’s strange how furnishings have changed in the church over the last 46 years.
No uniformity from going church to church. Some Catholic Churches you go to where the Novus Ordo is said still have a central High Tabernacle behind the Altar.

Other Novus Ordo churches had their High Altars and Tabernacles ripped from their walls as superfluous garbage after the Novus Ordo was instituted.

Now today we have small little trinket boxes either recessed in walls or sitting on a small credence-like table. Hardly anything resemblance in the least as edifying.

And of course now in many western Catholic Churches we see the Tabernacle removed entirely from the Sanctuary.
I feel that you’re pointing to a number of important details. I’ll add a disclaimer before I address them. My areas of theological expertise are Asectical and Mystical Theology and Franciscan Theology. I’m not an architect or an artist. However, I do believe that art and architecture are often expressions of faith, even for non-Christians. Look at the Greeks and Egyptians.

I believe that it would be inappropriate for monasteries to have the same kind of altar and sanctuary that you would find in St. Patrick’s Cathedral, if that monastery and its tradition predates that particular form of art and architecture or if is prohibitted by the founder. The voice of Christ comes through the founder. For example, the Carthusian tradition looks very Protestant to us. There is little or no color, not statues, candles, stations of the cross and other religious objects that you would find in a post Gothic Catholic Church. So they should not have them. It’s not Carthusian.

The Franciscans should have the tabernacle on the main sanctuary, because it’s part of our tradition. Our Holy Father put it there. He did not put it on the altar. He placed it on a smaller table that resembled a large pedestal, sometimes called the Blessed Sacrament altar. It can be in the center or on the side as long as it’s in the sanctuary, because that’s where Francis put it. He did not put it there to make a statement. Let’s keep that in mind. I’ve already said why he put it there.

There were older churches that had three tabenacles. They were often used on Holy Thursday night, but sometimes, they were also used for the sick. Liturgically, they were not necessary. You don’t need a tabernacle to celebrate mass. The original intent of having more than one altar was for places where you had more than one priest celebrating. Remember, some religious orders prohibit this. If you have more than one priest, only once can say mass. They take turns. There is no such thing as a private mass in some religious communities. In diocesan parishes, the priests are not religious. They have no community and no superior. They can celebrate mass whenever they want to do so and where ever they want to do so. In some monasteries they do allow all of their priests to celebrate mass. The need the extra altars. I know one that had a crypt with many altars around the wall. It looked a little strange, I have to admit. I had never seen more than three altars and this place had at least 10.

Taking the tabernacle out of the sanctuary to place it in a chapel is also permitted by the Church. The Church will not prohibit what has always been allowed. In other words, if it’s not a sin for monks and cloistered nuns to do this, then it cannot be a sin for the local parish.

That reduces the question to one of prudence and necessity. Is it necessary and prudent? That is going do depend on the parish and how the church is built, security, etc. I can’t answer that for every single parish. I do know one parish near where I live where they have a separate chapel for one simple reason, economics. You can turn off the heat and the AC in the big church. The chapel is very small. However, the chapel is adjacent to the sanctuary. It has two doors, one to the street and one to the church.

As far as tearing things down, I believe this was a mistake. Some of these altars were beautiful and still in good shape. I have seen some churches that kept the old altar and simply build a detached altar that blends in with its surroundings. I know another Church in VA that actually severed the altar from the wall. They pushed the altar forward and finished all the wall. When you look at it, everything blends. Unless someone tells you, you believe that it was built that way. If you have good craftsmen or women and you’re clever, you can remodel a sanctuary without destroying it. Destroying history is wrong. If the altar has termites and it was a matter of time before it had to come down, that’s another story.

This brings us back to the tabernacle. The customs are different from one family to another. Those parishes that have diocesan priests either inherited a custom from a religious family and if not, they should follow the GIRM. The GIRM is very clear where the tabernacle can be placed and how it should be displayed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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