How are blessed items not "idols"

[apophasis]

Well, thank you to everyone who posted responses to help me answer my question. I am sure that I will come up with others, but for now I am all set on this.

So, tell us, what’s your personal conclusion? On this subject there’s no such thing as a happy medium between Protestant and Catholic positions.

 

[apophasis]

I KNOW that I am right, you had better HOPE that you are right.

Oh, he’s right .

 

[Brendan]

I KNOW that I am right, you had better HOPE that you are right.

Hosemonkey,

Sandusky would be correct. A Catholic becoming Protestant does not commit Apostacy, but rather falls under the sin of Heresy ( a post-Baptismal denial of that which is required to be believed)

The extent of culpability of this heresy can be either Formal Heresy (where there is an active rejection of what the person has full knowledge of) or Material Heresy ( holding a misunderstanding of the real Truth of Catholic teaching and therefore rejecting it )

One is Mortal, the other Venial

 

[Pax]

I don’t think so.1 Cor 1:18 "For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."Scripture itself gives us a prettey good description of Paul’s missionary journeys. And as you can see by the passages I provided, He “preached” the “word” of the cross.1 Cor. 1:23 "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,"But Luke was there and he wrote about it. Paul was there and he wrote about it.Of course I can. Yours, however, has no Scriptural or historical support.Sure they are.Paul preached the same “word of the cross” in every area he visited.

By your standards it would be wrong to suggest that Paul ever ate lunch, gazed at the stars at night, walked to and from the market place, ever prayed the Lord’s prayer, closed his eyes in prayer, knelt in prayer, preached while sitting in a chair, or many other things not mentioned in scripture.

Your overwhelming confidence is without foundation and the scriptures don’t help your case. Paul talks about baptism for the dead in only one place in scripture. This means that it happened and was being performed by a number of people. Paul doesn’t endorse it but it is clear that it happened even though it is only mentioned once.

Galatians 3:1 mentions something that appears in his testimony only one time. It happened and apparently this was something that Paul did endorse based on the context.

I have little or no problem with you maintaining an interpretation of this verse that differs from my own. I pstrenuously object, however, to your overly confident and condescending claims as to the superiority of your opinion over another. It would be one thing if you actually had credible arguments and data to substantiate your position. It is clear to me that our position is the stronger of the two, but that the verse is subject to interpretation that might lead to different conclusions.

 

[sandusky]

Brendan:

Hosemonkey,

Sandusky would be correct. A Catholic becoming Protestant does not commit Apostacy, but rather falls under the sin of Heresy ( a post-Baptismal denial of that which is required to be believed)

The extent of culpability of this heresy can be either Formal Heresy (where there is an active rejection of what the person has full knowledge of) or Material Heresy ( holding a misunderstanding of the real Truth of Catholic teaching and therefore rejecting it )

One is Mortal, the other Venial

Thank you, Brendan. I was hoping that hosemonkey would read his catechism and discover that for himself, but he did not.

Did you get that hosemonkey?

According to the RCC, I am not an apostate, but an heretic—a formal heretic as I have no misunderstanding of what the RCC teaches.

Please refer to me correctly when addressing me in the future, not as an apostate, but as an heretic; and please, remember to do that with charity… :tiphat:

 

[Pryority7]

Seriously, man, have you ever considered therapy? I covered 2 Cor. 5:10 in previous posts. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Purgatory.

Are there stalking rules on this forum?

I’m not talking about Purgatory Sherlock. I’m talking about what 2 Corinthians 5:10 says about all of us giving account of what we have done while in the body, whether GOOD or BAD…you conviniently left that verse out in your initial post about “Being absent in the body is to be present with Christ”…which I ALREADY REFUTED and rather well I may add. You are avoiding this verse because it talks about something YOU don’t believe in…faith plus works…

Now go ahead and say it…
“I don’t know what you’re talking about”…

The only therapy I’ve recieved is the blessing of the truth from error…I will pray the same for you…

P7

 

[hosemonkey]

Thank you, Brendan. I was hoping that hosemonkey would read his catechism and discover that for himself, but he did not.

Did you get that hosemonkey?

According to the RCC, I am not an apostate, but an heretic—a formal heretic as I have no misunderstanding of what the RCC teaches.

Please refer to me correctly when addressing me in the future, not as an apostate, but as an heretic; and please, remember to do that with charity… :tiphat:

OK, I will stand corrected. BUT… As a formal heretic you are still in MORTAL sin and not your skin but your immortal soul is in danger of hellfire if you die in that sorry state. Add that to the fact that you seem to rejoice in your heresy as a dog wallows in filth. And I say this in all charity and concern for your soul.

 

[apophasis]

By your standards it would be wrong to suggest that Paul ever ate lunch, gazed at the stars at night, walked to and from the market place, ever prayed the Lord’s prayer, closed his eyes in prayer, knelt in prayer, preached while sitting in a chair, or many other things not mentioned in scripture.

That’s a completely different context. Not congruent with the present argument.

 

[apophasis]

I’m not talking about Purgatory Sherlock. I’m talking about what 2 Corinthians 5:10 says about all of us giving account of what we have done while in the body, whether GOOD or BAD…you conviniently left that verse out in your initial post about “Being absent in the body is to be present with Christ”…which I ALREADY REFUTED and rather well I may add. You are avoiding this verse because it talks about something YOU don’t believe in…faith plus works…

Been through this with you already. The “judgment seat of Christ” does not determine one’s salvation but the rewards of the already SAVED (see Jn. 5:24).

Seriously, man, please consider therapy.

 

[apophasis]

Galatians 3:1 mentions something that appears in his testimony only one time. It happened and apparently this was something that Paul did endorse based on the context.

I have little or no problem with you maintaining an interpretation of this verse that differs from my own. I pstrenuously object, however, to your overly confident and condescending claims as to the superiority of your opinion over another. It would be one thing if you actually had credible arguments and data to substantiate your position. It is clear to me that our position is the stronger of the two, but that the verse is subject to interpretation that might lead to different conclusions.

Gal 3:1-3 "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed {as} crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?As I said before, Pax, this Church age is an age when men are called to “walk by faith, not by sight.”

 

[sandusky]

hosemonkey:

OK, I will stand corrected. BUT… As a formal heretic you are still in MORTAL sin and not your skin but your immortal soul is in danger of hellfire if you die in that sorry state. Add that to the fact that you seem to rejoice in your heresy as a dog wallows in filth. And I say this in all charity and concern for your soul.

First of all, hosemonkey, I am not concerned with any RCC pronouncement that I am an heretic; so though it seems to you that I rejoice in my RCC-announced heresy, I do not, as I do not consider myself an heretic; I am not bound to the authority of the RCC, but am under the authority of the elders of my church, and we are under the authority of Gods word. The RCC has as much authority in pronouncing me an heretic as the Watchtower of the JW’s has in declaring members of its sect heretics while shunning them, and withdrawing from fellowship with them.

However, what I rejoice in is my salvation in Christ, which is fixed and irrevocable, and which has come to me on the basis of God’s mercy toward me (Jn 1:12-13; Rom 16:15-16), his kind disposition of grace toward me, and the gift from Him of faith through which I have appropriated eternal life (Eph 1; 2:8ff).

Because of that, I do not come into judgment for sin—my sin was judged in Christ on the Cross, and I am no longer a debtor concerning sin (Eph 2:1-10; Col 2:8-14)—but have passed from death to life and I will never perish (Jn 5:24; 10:27-28); therefore, according to Peter, a man of great prominence in your Church, I have a place reserved for me in heaven, along with the appropriation of an inheritance of all things, and that inheritance is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away; and the reason that place is reserved for me, and the reason that my inheritance will not fade away, is not because of the meritorious works that I perform, nor the external sacerdotal/sacramental rituals in which I engage while a member of any church, but the reason that my reservation in heaven will not be cancelled is because I am kept by the power of God through faith (1 Pet 1:3-9; cf Rom 8:29-39).

Paul asks two rhetorical questions in Rom 8:33, 34; the first question is, “who will bring a charge against God’s elect? His expected response: no one—not you, not me, not the RCC; the second question is, “*who is the one who condemns *[the elect]? The expected response: no one—not you, not me, not the RCC; and why is that? Because, v 33, “it is God who justifies.”

No one is justified by a Church, hosemonkey.

…you had better HOPE that you are right.

There is no place in scripture in which I am directed to “HOPE that I am right,” hosemonkey.

My hope is in Christ, where it is commanded to be, and not in His church—the body of believers—because they are finite and may fail me, but my hope is in Christ who will never fail me.

And I am not speaking of the contemporary Catholic definition of hope expounded on this forum, i.e., I hope so, but don’t know. I am speaking of Christian hope that rests on the divine act of salvation accomplished in Christ, and, since this is eschatological, hope itself is an eschatological blessing, i.e., now is the time when we may have confidence of our final disposition.

So along with Paul, and other true believers, I have a confident hope, not in myself, but in God (Php 1:6).

So you can take all of your admonitions and warnings designed to make one fearful, and put them in your ear. :tiphat:

 

[Pax]

That’s a completely different context. Not congruent with the present argument.

In your dreams.

 

[sweetirishct]

So, tell us, what’s your personal conclusion? On this subject there’s no such thing as a happy medium between Protestant and Catholic positions.

Well, I have decided to research things further, using some of the links I have been given, and also my copy of the CCC (which my wonderful priest supplied me with…)
I am trying hard to hold to the teachings of the CC, and that includes praying the rosary and honoring the Cross and Crucifix. I am not taking down the depictions of Christ in my home, as they are a comfort to my soul and give me a face to focus on during prayer and sacrifice.

As far as my impression from the recent posts on this thread, to be perfectly honest I stopped reading them. The repetitive, circular “discussion” did nothing for me, and honestly came across more like online bickering. So, as I try to do in my daily life, I chose to remove myself from such a negative discussion. Some may see this not as a negative exchange, but as a fiesty debate. Sorry, I didn’t get that from it …

Not trying to offend anyone, but I am also not trying to confuse myself any more than I already am

 

[Pax]

Here’s what the old Baltimore Catechism has to say on the subject of crucifixes and similar items:

Q. 1211. Does the first Commandment forbid the making of images?
A. The first Commandment does forbid the making of images if they are made to be adored as gods, but it does not forbid the making of them to put us in mind of Jesus Christ, His Blessed Mother, and the saints.
Q. 1212. How do we show that it is only the worship and not the making of images that is forbidden by the first commandment?
A. We show that it is only the worship and not the making of images that is forbidden by the first commandment:

1. (1) Because no one thinks it sinful to carve statues or make photographs or paintings of relatives or friends;
2. (2) Because God Himself commanded the making of images for the temple after He had given the first commandment, and God never contradicts Himself.
   Q. 1213. Is it right to show respect to the pictures and images of Christ and His saints?
   A. It is right to show respect to the pictures and images of Christ and His saints, because they are the representations and memorials of them.
   Q. 1214. Have we in this country any civil custom similar to that of honoring the pictures and images of saints?
   A. We have, in this country, a civil custom similar to that of honoring pictures and images of saints, for, on Decoration or Memorial Day, patriotic citizens place flowers, flags, or emblems about the statues of our deceased civil heroes, to honor the persons these statues represent; for just as we can dishonor a man by abusing his image, so we can honor him by treating it with respect and reverence.
   Q. 1215. Is it allowed to pray to the crucifix or to the images and relics of the saints?
   A. It is not allowed to pray to the crucifix or images and relics of the saints, for they have no life, nor power to help us, nor sense to hear us.
   Q. 1216. Why do we pray before the crucifix and the images and relics of the saints?
   A. We pray before the crucifix and the images and relics of the saints because they enliven our devotion by exciting pious affections and desires, and by reminding us of Christ and of the saints, that we may imitate their virtues.

I hope this helps.

 

[hosemonkey]

Well, I have decided to research things further, using some of the links I have been given, and also my copy of the CCC (which my wonderful priest supplied me with…)
I am trying hard to hold to the teachings of the CC, and that includes praying the rosary and honoring the Cross and Crucifix. I am not taking down the depictions of Christ in my home, as they are a comfort to my soul and give me a face to focus on during prayer and sacrifice.

As far as my impression from the recent posts on this thread, to be perfectly honest I stopped reading them. The repetitive, circular “discussion” did nothing for me, and honestly came across more like online bickering. So, as I try to do in my daily life, I chose to remove myself from such a negative discussion. Some may see this not as a negative exchange, but as a fiesty debate. Sorry, I didn’t get that from it …

Not trying to offend anyone, but I am also not trying to confuse myself any more than I already am

That’s the wisest thing you could do, some protestants will merely lie to you. Keep the faith.

 

[hosemonkey]

First of all, hosemonkey, I am not concerned with any RCC pronouncement that I am an heretic; so though it seems to you that I rejoice in my RCC-announced heresy, I do not, as I do not consider myself an heretic; I am not bound to the authority of the RCC, but am under the authority of the elders of my church, and we are under the authority of Gods word. The RCC has as much authority in pronouncing me an heretic as the Watchtower of the JW’s has in declaring members of its sect heretics while shunning them, and withdrawing from fellowship with them.

However, what I rejoice in is my salvation in Christ, which is fixed and irrevocable, and which has come to me on the basis of God’s mercy toward me (Jn 1:12-13; Rom 16:15-16), his kind disposition of grace toward me, and the gift from Him of faith through which I have appropriated eternal life (Eph 1; 2:8ff).

Because of that, I do not come into judgment for sin—my sin was judged in Christ on the Cross, and I am no longer a debtor concerning sin (Eph 2:1-10; Col 2:8-14)—but have passed from death to life and I will never perish (Jn 5:24; 10:27-28); therefore, according to Peter, a man of great prominence in your Church, I have a place reserved for me in heaven, along with the appropriation of an inheritance of all things, and that inheritance is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away; and the reason that place is reserved for me, and the reason that my inheritance will not fade away, is not because of the meritorious works that I perform, nor the external sacerdotal/sacramental rituals in which I engage while a member of any church, but the reason that my reservation in heaven will not be cancelled is because I am kept by the power of God through faith (1 Pet 1:3-9; cf Rom 8:29-39).

Paul asks two rhetorical questions in Rom 8:33, 34; the first question is, “who will bring a charge against God’s elect? His expected response: no one—not you, not me, not the RCC; the second question is, “*who is the one who condemns *[the elect]? The expected response: no one—not you, not me, not the RCC; and why is that? Because, v 33, “it is God who justifies.”

No one is justified by a Church, hosemonkey.

There is no place in scripture in which I am directed to “HOPE that I am right,” hosemonkey.

My hope is in Christ, where it is commanded to be, and not in His church—the body of believers—because they are finite and may fail me, but my hope is in Christ who will never fail me.

And I am not speaking of the contemporary Catholic definition of hope expounded on this forum, i.e., I hope so, but don’t know. I am speaking of Christian hope that rests on the divine act of salvation accomplished in Christ, and, since this is eschatological, hope itself is an eschatological blessing, i.e., now is the time when we may have confidence of our final disposition.

So along with Paul, and other true believers, I have a confident hope, not in myself, but in God (Php 1:6).

So you can take all of your admonitions and warnings designed to make one fearful, and put them in your ear. :tiphat:

I am hurt! I merely addressed you as you instructed me to do, as a heretic rather than an apostate. Then I get back a lot of blather about how you have a place all reserved in heaven and the usual prod nonsense about"once saved, always saved." I’ve always found that idea to be laughable, given the behavior of some of those who espouse it. Well, better not put any cash down on that “place in heaven,” “there’s many a slip, twixt the cup and the lip.” There may be a warmer climate in store for you and the rest of your fellow heretics.

 

[sandusky]

hosemonkey:

I am hurt! I merely addressed you as you instructed me to do, as a heretic rather than an apostate.

I was not complaining about you addressing me as an heretic, but was conveying to you the idea that it is a meaningless term, as meaningless as inferring that I am an apostate; those words are thrown about so much, and so carelessly these days that they have become useless, AFAIC.

You may as well be calling me a jack***; same thing.

hosemonkey:

Then I get back a lot of blather about how you have a place all reserved in heaven and the usual prod nonsense about"once saved, always saved." I’ve always found that idea to be laughable, given the behavior of some of those who espouse it.

You meant “prot,” right? You might try studying the subject a bit, rather than basing your understanding of the subject on the behavior of others, which doesn’t make any sense; studying the subject would be the reasonable thing to do, and you seem to be somewhat reasonable; the information at this link could keep you busy for years, if you devote even a small amount of time each week to study.

hosemonkey:

Well, better not put any cash down on that “place in heaven,”

It’s free, hosemonkey; one can perform no work meritorious enough to earn it; and one will commit no sin dire enough to lose it once God has given it, as I stated in my last post to you; that is God’s promise, and He does not change; it’s been that way for eternity (Isa 55:1ff;
Rom 6:23; 3:20; Jn 5:24; 10:27ff; 1 Pet 1:3-9).

 

[Pax]

Me thinks we all need to relax and take a chill pill…or have a beer:thumbsup:

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread closed.