How are Mormons, Muslims and non-Catholic Protestant Christians really that different?

[1holycatholic]

That sounds like an admission that you knew that what you previously said was misleading, even when you said it. You can’t go pick and choose from what long dead prophets said, to construct what “Mormonism” means.

Admission of what? They taught it long ago, and they teach exactly the same thing today. I’m not picking something only taught by long dead Mormons and subsequently recanted, but teachings they’ve professed long ago and continue to profess to this very day.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Admission of what? They taught it long ago, and they teach exactly the same thing today. I’m not picking something only taught by long dead Mormons and subsequently recanted, but teachings they’ve professed long ago and continue to profess to this very day.

Not true. See Alma 11:27-39, 44; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; 3 Nephi 11:27, and the Title Page of the Book of Mormon. Or any current official LDS General Conference talk. One God. Three Personages who are One in Mind, and therefore One God.

When JS said “Gods,” that’s simply semantic bungling for three separate Personages. Which isn’t that different than what your church teaches.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Then please explain how it’s different, using those Book of Mormon scriptures, rather than the earlier misrepresentations as a point of departure.

and why baptisms in the LDS are considered invalid.

Again, if you believe that the Pope holds the binding authority that Christ gave to Peter, then it makes absolutely no sense to me why you would recognize validity of baptisms performed by anyone who did not recognize the Pope’s authority. Since I can’t start a new thread, I’d very much appreciate if someone would start a new thread to address that question.

When we baptize, the operant phrase is “having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” Do you use the same terms? How can you recognize validity of a sacrament performed by someone that you don’t believe has been commissioned, directly or indirectly, by Jesus Christ?

The Biblical prophets for example operated in varying eras and their prophecies often reflect that but their statements can be reconciled with each other, Mormonism has had numerous statements, including infamously it’s views on race, which seem to have changed to suit political convenience or prevailing social conditions.

That’s a silly thing to say, since the Apostle Peter famously denied admission to gentiles, but later, after a revelation, admitted gentiles. His policies can’t be “reconciled”; the fact is simply that the later revelation overrides the previous policy. Was Peter wrong to exclude gentiles prior to his revelation? Who knows and why does it matter?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Oh?

So you dispute that Peter’s revelation about admitting the Gentiles was from God?

You question Peter’s authority when he said, in the first chapter of his second Epistle:

We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Which prophetic message did he mean if not his own?

In the 2nd chapter, Peter also said:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Was this not a prophesy? or in Chapter 3:

Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires … But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare

Were these not prophesies?

Christians are baptized in Christ’s name, not the Pope’s.

Was that supposed to answer my question about authority? Does the Pope hold Peter’s authority or not? Does anyone else have a better answer? Is there a Catholic in the house? Anyone who cares more about clarifying Catholic doctrine than bashing Mormons?

 

[1holycatholic]

Then please explain how it’s different, using those Book of Mormon scriptures, rather than the earlier misrepresentations as a point of departure.

The Book of Mormon is not Sacred Scripture.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

What is “not dependent on men”? My questions were:

Again, if you believe that the Pope holds the binding authority that Christ gave to Peter, then it makes absolutely no sense to me why you would recognize validity of baptisms performed by anyone who did not recognize the Pope’s authority. Since I can’t start a new thread, I’d very much appreciate if someone would start a new thread to address that question.

When we baptize, the operant phrase is “having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” Do you use the same terms? How can you recognize validity of a sacrament performed by someone that you don’t believe has been commissioned, directly or indirectly, by Jesus Christ?

 

[Michelle_G_55]

I don’t know much about mormons. My daughter is 25 and has decided to be
baptized into the mormon religion on Sunday, Aug. 28. Someone please shed a little light on this subject.
This is the first time I have tried something like this.

 

[Michelle_G_55]

Then please explain how it’s different, using those Book of Mormon scriptures, rather than the earlier misrepresentations as a point of departure.

Again, if you believe that the Pope holds the binding authority that Christ gave to Peter, then it makes absolutely no sense to me why you would recognize validity of baptisms performed by anyone who did not recognize the Pope’s authority. Since I can’t start a new thread, I’d very much appreciate if someone would start a new thread to address that question.

When we baptize, the operant phrase is “having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” Do you use the same terms? How can you recognize validity of a sacrament performed by someone that you don’t believe has been commissioned, directly or indirectly, by Jesus Christ?

That’s a silly thing to say, since the Apostle Peter famously denied admission to gentiles, but later, after a revelation, admitted gentiles. His policies can’t be “reconciled”; the fact is simply that the later revelation overrides the previous policy. Was Peter wrong to exclude gentiles prior to his revelation? Who knows and why does it matter?

What did you mean that LDS baptisms are invalid? My daughter (25 Yrs. ) is being baptized, much to our dismay, this weekend by a 15 yrs. old boy. Help me to understand this. She was baptized as a Catholic 25 yrs ago.

 

[1holycatholic]

What did you mean that LDS baptisms are invalid? My daughter (25 Yrs. ) is being baptized, much to our dismay, this weekend by a 15 yrs. old boy. Help me to understand this. She was baptized as a Catholic 25 yrs ago.

She is a validly baptized Catholic and will remain so for eternity. Mormon baptisms are not valid.

RESPONSE TO A ‘DUBIUM’
on the validity of baptism conferred by
«The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints»,
called «Mormons»

Question: Wheter the baptism conferred by the community «The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints», called «Mormons» in the vernacular, is valid.

Response: Negative.

The Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved the present Response, decided in the Sessione Ordinaria of this Congregation, and ordered it published.

From the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 5 June 2001.

• Joseph Cardinal RATZINGER
  Prefect
  • Tarcisio BERTONE, S.D.B.
    Archbishop emeritus of Vercelli
    Secretary

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

What did you mean that LDS baptisms are invalid? .

I did not say that LDS baptisms are invalid. That was someone else, in process of dodging my innocent question about why the Catholic Church validates the authority of baptisms of some Christian churches. I was already aware of the reasoning why the CC does not accept LDS baptisms, but some folks here won’t stop gloating about it, even though that was not my question.

My daughter (25 Yrs. ) is being baptized, much to our dismay, this weekend by a 15 yrs. old boy. Help me to understand this. She was baptized as a Catholic 25 yrs ago

Not sure I understand it myself, since the boy would have to be at least 16 in order to be ordained a priest, and therefore to baptize.

The LDS view of Baptism is more like the Protestant view, i.e. we don’t refer to it as “Christening” because we believe that baptism isn’t something that you do in order to become a Christian, but something you do because you are a Christian. Choosing to get baptized manifests your desire to follow Jesus, to be born again, to repent of your sins.

Baptism doesn’t give you a new name in the LDS church; she keeps her Catholic name.

Not sure what all you’d like to know. Please feel free to ask questions.

 

[1holycatholic]

Not sure I understand it myself, since the boy would have to be at least 16 in order to be ordained a priest, and therefore to baptize.

The LDS do not have a valid priesthood, and even if they did baptism (valid Christian baptism, not LDS “baptism”) is not a Sacrament ministered only by priests.

 

[Michelle_G_55]

Thank you so much for telling me that. I have heard that already, but didn’t know if people were saying that to make me feel better. After reading your response, I can now sleep a little bit better tonight. I’m leaving this in Gods hands and doing much praying. We told our daughter that we will be there on Sunday, that we have accepted her decision but strongly disagree with it. We hope that this is a passing phase.

Yours in Christ,
Michelle G 55
Have a blessed day:thumbsup:

 

[Michelle_G_55]

Thank you for your response. I did misunderstand you post. I apologize. I’m not bashing LDS/Mormons, we just had a few questions that we needed answered. I have been on many websites and it all is confusing. A Minister friend of ours said that Mormons don’t believe in the Divine Trinity. They are not a Jesus Christ centered religion. Why are there no crosses on the churches/temples? The boy doing the baptizing is only 15 and not even a priest yet as of today. How can he baptize my daughter this Sunday. There was a kink in the ordeal. He had supposedly been raped by a 18 yr. old girl (long time friend of the family). My daughter is very close to this boys family. He told the Bishop that it was mutual but told his parents she raped him. We’re not sure if he will be preforming the baptism.
Also, we don’t understand why the Mormons/LDS don’t drink. Why not a glass of wine at dinner? If they follow the bible, how can they be divorced?
Sorry if I took up too much of your time. Thank you in advance.Gee I hope I’m doing this right.

Michelle G 55
Have a Blessed Day

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Thank you for your response. I did misunderstand you post. I apologize. I’m not bashing LDS/Mormons, we just had a few questions that we needed answered.

No apology is necessary, Michelle. I can only imagine how you feel. You’re frightened of not being with your daughter in eternity. Of losing her to what people you trust are telling you is a pagan religion that rejects the Savior.

I have been on many websites and it all is confusing. A Minister friend of ours said that Mormons don’t believe in the Divine Trinity. They are not a Jesus Christ centered religion.

Your minister is mistaken. Jesus Christ is the founder of our church, the center of our faith, and the entire basis of our hope for resurrection and salvation.

We believe that before Jesus Christ was made flesh, and came to earth, that he was known as Jehovah, creator of heaven and earth. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We believe Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.

Why are there no crosses on the churches/temples?

I’d suggest googling that question. I’ve seen it answered many times, and I’ll be honest that I’m not satisfied with the answer. I’m not the only church member that feels that way. We sing and talk about the cross; we display the crucifixion in paintings; we show statues of the resurrected Lord with the marks in his hands (the Cristus statue). Why don’t we have crosses in our architecture? I can understand why that makes you uncomfortable.

The boy doing the baptizing is only 15 and not even a priest yet as of today. How can he baptize my daughter this Sunday.

He shouldn’t unless he’s at least 16. and ordained as a priest.

There was a kink in the ordeal. He had supposedly been raped by a 18 yr. old girl (long time friend of the family). My daughter is very close to this boys family. He told the Bishop that it was mutual but told his parents she raped him.

My wife and I worked in a woman’s shelter, and I can say that’s not that unusual that a victim would be reluctant to discuss a rape by a family friend with parents.

What’s not usual at all, is that you would know what he’d told the Bishop. Unfortunately we’re not as good as you with clerical confidentiality, but having you know something that delicate is unusually bad, even for us.

We’re not sure if he will be preforming the baptism.

Does your daughter want him to? If there’s some concern that he’s not worthy, if he lied to the Bishop about the rape, then performing a holy sacrament like baptism would be a serious sin for such a young person.

Also, we don’t understand why the Mormons/LDS don’t drink. Why not a glass of wine at dinner?

Because we promised God that we wouldn’t. It’s not a good idea to break a promise to God. It’s not a sin for you to drink, because you haven’t made such a promise.

If they follow the bible, how can they be divorced?

The LDS divorce rate is very low. Divorce is a very bad thing, but there are worse things.

I’m glad if anything I said helped. I hope and pray that this change brings you and your daughter closer together.

God bless you,

P

 

[1holycatholic]

Your minister is mistaken. Jesus Christ is the founder of our church, the center of our faith, and the entire basis of our hope for resurrection and salvation.

Joseph Smith is the founder of your non-Christian religion.

Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and no others.

Those are historical facts.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Joseph Smith is the founder of your non-Christian religion.

That’s absurd. If JS was the founder, then we would not feel free to challenge his errors.

Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and no others.

There you hide behind the forum rules, because for me to challenge that statement, as I could easily do, would be to Proselytize, which I have promised not to do here.

 

[1holycatholic]

That’s absurd. If JS was the founder, then we would not feel free to challenge his errors.

That’s not absurd, it’s a fact of history.

I’ve never heard Mormonism described as an ongoing series of errors before. That’s an apt description.

There you hide behind the forum rules, because for me to challenge that statement, as I could easily do, would be to Proselytize, which I have promised not to do here.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. That Christ established the Catholic Church is a matter of historical fact.

 

[Frere]

How are today’s Mormons (LDS), Muslims (Islamists) and non-Catholic Protestant Christians (all 36,000 different non-Christian denominations) really that different? After all, they all reject various aspects of Catholicism. They all share the same God of Abraham and they wrote their own “Bibles”, the KJV, the Koran and the Book of Mormon… taking much of what they wrote from the original Catholic Bible. Is there really just two groups of believers, those who are Catholic and those who came after Catholicism, who in my opinion tried to re-invent their religions using the Catholic Model? Or, basically copying the Catholic Church… but on their terms now…

Your thoughts?

I think there is great truth in what you are saying.
In my understanding, the book of Revelation has only two ‘religions’ which it indicate with the imagery of two type of women: the Bride and the Whore. These are the two types of faithfullness/religion/spirituality/religious spirit the book of Revelation sees in the world.
What you said relates to this fact. The Bride ‘subsists’ only in the Catholic Church. The Whore spans from unfaithful catholicism to other religions.

The Bride points to faithfullness, integrity, and unity. She belong only to one and her childreen are one through her by their father.
The Whore is associated with many ‘men’, and her offspring are about as varied as their fathers.
Your observation of corruption of universal/catholic truth into all kinds of truth and holy books do points to this reality of the corruption of integrity symbolized by the whore.

Of course we must remember there are many non-Cathoics who are catholics without having discovered it yet by the graced of God. I believe Bride and Whore do not points directly to indivual persons but to religious spirits or religious bodies and their character/genesis/attitudes.

God bless

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I’ve never heard Mormonism described as an ongoing series of errors before. That’s an apt description.

Has anyone else ever notice how the disciples of the New Testament dwell so much at their own errs and slowness to understand in the gospel accounts?

I thank God for His amazing patience with us.

 

[1holycatholic]

Has anyone else ever notice how the disciples of the New Testament dwell so much at their own errs and slowness to understand in the gospel accounts?

I thank God for His amazing patience with us.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not the pillar and foundation of the zeitgeist.