How are Mormons, Muslims and non-Catholic Protestant Christians really that different?

[Jimmy_B]

What gives most Protestant denominations, with the exception of those such as Oneness Pentecostals, the right to claim these other religions are wrong–not that most Protestants necessarily do so–is that none of these other religions believe in that most basic dogmatic principle of Christianity, which is the Triune G-d. I’m not exactly sure what Mormons believe with respect to the divinity of Jesus, nor all Quakers; but I do know that neither Muslims, Jews, Unitarians, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, or Pagans believe in the divinity of Jesus or the Holy Spirit. From my perspective, this is the key element that separates Christianity from other religions, and, by this definition, most Protestants are Christians. In a similar manner, your question can be applied to Jews. Since Conservative Jews and Reform Jews are regarded as heretics according to some in the Orthodox Jewish community, what gives them the right to separate themselves from Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists? The answer is the same: because Conservative Jews and Reform Jews are still Jews and, for all the differences between them and Orthodox Jews, they nonetheless believe in the most basic Jewish articles of faith.

Excellent post.
I’m not that familiar with the various sects within Judaism. I’ve heard that there are also “Christian-Jews” and “Atheist-Jews” as well. Even though your post may hold truth for many, I’m sure that there are also as many Orthodox Jew’s and others, who do not consider these people, in these break-away sects to be Jewish.
Am I wrong?

 

[BrianH]

Well the original KJV Bible had all the same books, just in different places. How does one say it was a “creation” considering Erasmus was a Catholic priest? It seems to compare the Koran, BOM, and the KJV in this way is misplaced. I know you hate to be controversial Jimmy so I am just seeking some clarification…

 

[BrianH]

There are other Protestant groups that are non-Trinitarian. The Jehovah’s Witnesses for example.

Wikipedia (hardly a stellar source, but freely available) lists twenty four such groups: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Nontrinitarian_denominations

If your church does not define them as Protestants, Protestants do not define them as Protestants, and they do not define themselves as Protestants…I guess Wikipedia or a secular source is an interesting choice…

 

[meltzerboy]

Excellent post.
I’m not that familiar with the various sects within Judaism. I’ve heard that there are also “Christian-Jews” and “Atheist-Jews” as well. Even though your post may hold truth for many, I’m sure that there are also as many Orthodox Jew’s and others, who do not consider these people, in these break-away sects to be Jewish.
Am I wrong?

Jimmy, thanks for the compliment. However, I believe you are wrong about Orthodox Jews. I should qualify my statement by saying that I cannot speak for ALL Orthodox Jews, only those I know; and they tell me they still consider people like me Jewish since we are born Jewish. (Similar to a Catholic who is baptized as such.) They attribute the label of heresy to our leaders (so-called “rabbis,” which they write in quotations), rather than on us followers, who they believe to be mostly ignorant of Judaism. IOW, it’s not our fault; we just don’t know any better. Is this similar with respect to many Catholics’ view regarding Protestants?

 

[Bran_Stark]

Mormons - created their own “bible”, the Book of Mormon.
Muslims - created their own “bible”, the Koran.
Protestants - created their own “bible”, The King James Version (KJV) bible
Protestants - created the Book of Common Prayer .

Wow. Just wow. Are you really comparing the Book of Common Prayer, which contains practically no distinctively Protestant teaching and is used in Anglican Use parishes of the Catholic Church with only slight variation, to the Koran and the Book of Mormon?

And the KJV may not be your favorite translation, but it is still indeed a Bible. No one “made it up”, unless you count the Holy Ghost.

 

[meltzerboy]

If your church does not define them as Protestants, Protestants do not define them as Protestants, and they do not define themselves as Protestants…I guess Wikipedia or a secular source is an interesting choice…

I agree with this. Protestants themselves do not define Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons, among other religions, as Protestant, and neither do these religions. They do define themselves, however, as Christians, in fact the true Christians.

 

[1holycatholic]

If your church does not define them as Protestants, Protestants do not define them as Protestants, and they do not define themselves as Protestants…I guess Wikipedia or a secular source is an interesting choice…

It is not possible to state the “Protestants do…” anything since there is no authority in Protestantism. Protestants do whatever they want. Some handle snakes, some don’t. Some Baptize infants, some don’t. Some believe in three persons in one God, some don’t. Some believe in universalism, some don’t. Etc., etc., etc…

It’s Christ’s Church, and the Church does not define who is a Protestant, only who is Christian.

The taxonomy of Protestant denominations and non-denominational denominations :doh2:is based on history, not doctrine.

Many Protestants do define these groups as Protestants. Many Protestants reject the term Protestant - the Church of Christ for example, and they’re Trinitarian. Some Protestants even claim to be Catholic. :hypno:

 

[Jimmy_B]

Well the original KJV Bible had all the same books, just in different places. How does one say it was a “creation” considering Erasmus was a Catholic priest? It seems to compare the Koran, BOM, and the KJV in this way is misplaced. I know you hate to be controversial Jimmy so I am just seeking some clarification…

We both know that the most recent edition of the KJV is very similar to the current Catholic Bible, with some notable exceptions, like the last two books of Daniel, for example.

Where the biggest differences occur now, are with some clever “translations” of specific key words, in key verses. Also, the footnotes are very different. We also both know that the KJV today, is not the same KJV of 20, 30 or 40 years ago.

I own about 20 or so Bibles, including KJV’s and I have done book and verse comparisons with a Protestant (former-Catholic) friend of mine and others and it appears that there was an exhaustive effort by early Protestants to try to make a Catholic book, the Bible, more Protestant.

This shouldn’t surprise anyone familiar with Martin Luther, who once referred to the Catholic Epistle of James as the “Book of Straw” and he wanted to remove it from the Bible altogether. Martin Luther was also a Catholic Priest.

Any honest review comparing these differences, in context of the beliefs that divide us, will demonstrate my point.

Obviously I’m Catholic, so I know that all properly baptized people are Christian and that the KJV is a Christian Bible. However, it’s not a Catholic Bible.

The point I was making in my comparison to the Koran and the Book of Mormon and so on, was to show a pattern of non-Catholic attempts at re-inventing religion and trying to do so, by using Catholic sources.

Thank you for your post.

Your thoughts.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Wow. Just wow. Are you really comparing the Book of Common Prayer, which contains practically no distinctively Protestant teaching and is used in Anglican Use parishes of the Catholic Church with only slight variation, to the Koran and the Book of Mormon?

And the KJV may not be your favorite translation, but it is still indeed a Bible. No one “made it up”, unless you count the Holy Ghost.

See my last post here, #29…

Your thoughts?

 

[BrianH]

It is not possible to state the “Protestants do…” anything since there is no authority in Protestantism. Protestants do whatever they want. Some handle snakes, some don’t. Some Baptize infants, some don’t. Some believe in three persons in one God, some don’t. Some believe in universalism, some don’t. Etc., etc., etc…

It’s Christ’s Church, and the Church does not define who is a Protestant, only who is Christian.

The taxonomy of Protestant denominations and non-denominational denominations :doh2:is based on history, not doctrine.

Many Protestants do define these groups as Protestants. Many Protestants reject the term Protestant - the Church of Christ for example, and they’re Trinitarian. Some Protestants even claim to be Catholic. :hypno:

Well everyone ultimately decides their level of adherence to authority. Catholics choose to follow or believe their church teachings just like any other group.
Some Protestant groups have authority as strong or stronger than Catholics. I cannot be certain you disagree with that. Our conversation is general and specifics do not seem to be the goal of anyone…just yet.
I grew up in such a group Thats just a fact. We had authority out the wazoo.
However, in a practical sense lots of people do things, or in most cases, do not do things because of what their church teaches. Protestants and Catholics alike. Lots of examples come to mind. I worked with youth for years that I am sure outside of the influence of our church would have engaged in lots of behaviors. They, nor any group, seem to have a monopoly on adherence, or lack therof, to authority.
Do you think Catholics adhere to their authority more/some/all than individual Protestant groups?
On the other topic…
I think you overstate the taxonomy of these groups as Protestants. But it really does not matter either I suppose. Its a distinction probably few people care about.

 

[1holycatholic]

Well everyone ultimately decides their level of adherence to authority. Catholics choose to follow or believe their church teachings just like any other group.
Some Protestant groups have authority as strong or stronger than Catholics. I cannot be certain you disagree with that. Our conversation is general and specifics do not seem to be the goal of anyone…just yet.
I grew up in such a group Thats just a fact. We had authority out the wazoo.
However, in a practical sense lots of people do things, or in most cases, do not do things because of what their church teaches. Protestants and Catholics alike. Lots of examples come to mind. I worked with youth for years that I am sure outside of the influence of our church would have engaged in lots of behaviors. They, nor any group, seem to have a monopoly on adherence, or lack therof, to authority.
Do you think Catholics adhere to their authority more/some/all than individual Protestant groups?
On the other topic…
I think you overstate the taxonomy of these groups as Protestants. But it really does not matter either I suppose. Its a distinction probably few people care about.

Protestants have no authority.

 

[followingtheway]

Catholics and Non-Catholic Protestants

1. 
   *]Catholics believe Mary was concieved without sin and assumed into Heaven. Protestants believe she was a sinner and died a normal death.
   *]Catholics believe sacred images are ok, and that they are different from idols. Protestants see images as idols.
   *]Catholics ask Mary and the saints to pray for them to God. Protestants do not.
   *]Catholics believe Mary was always a virgin even until death, but Protestants believe she had children with Joseph after she had Jesus.
   *]Catholics have all male priests who can not marry. Most Protestants have pastors who can get married and be of any gender. Though, Anglicans have priests like Catholics but they can be women and get married.
   *]Catholics have the seven sacraments, most Protestants don’t, or don’t view things such as Baptism or Confession as means of salvation. Though some Protestants have sacraments.
   *]Catholics believe in Purgatory, Protestants do not.
   *]Catholics divide sins into Venial and Mortal, Protestants do not.
   *]Catholics have Deuterocanonical/Apocrypha books in between the Old and New Testament of the Bible.
   
   Catholics and Muslims
   1. 
      *]Catholics believe Jesus is the son of God/God Himself. Muslims solely see Jesus as a prophet.
      *]Muslims include Muhammad in a long line of prophets. Catholics do not accept Muhammad as a prophet.
      *]Catholics use sacred images. Muslims don’t.
      *]Catholics believe Jesus died on the cross, and Muslims believe someone else did.
      *]Catholics believe in the Bible and the Catechism. Muslims believe in the Qu’ran and Hadith.
      *]Muslims use the Arabic word for God, Allah.
      
      But for the Mormons someone else has to help you on that one…
      
      God bless :byzsoc:
      
      David

 

[IowaJay]

How are today’s Mormons (LDS), Muslims (Islamists) and non-Catholic Protestant Christians (all 36,000 different non-Christian denominations) really that different?

A comparison of Unitatis Redintegratio with *Nostra Aetate * indicates that there is a rather obvious distinction between Protestants, compared to Mormons and Muslims. A member of the former, through baptism, “becomes truly incorporated into the crucified and glorified Christ and is reborn to a sharing of divine life.” (UR paragraph 22). A member of the the latter is not.

And that’s quite a huge difference.

 

[BrianH]

Protestants have no authority.

I made more of a distinction based upon your previous comments. We are going more specific and less general. There are several Protestant denominations that exert a great deal of authority over their members.
In a practical sense I do not see a difference. Catholics do not adhere to their authority any more than we do. Maybe not any less. At least, I do not think so.

 

[1holycatholic]

I made more of a distinction based upon your previous comments. We are going more specific and less general. There are several Protestant denominations that exert a great deal of authority over their members.
In a practical sense I do not see a difference. Catholics do not adhere to their authority any more than we do. Maybe not any less. At least, I do not think so.

I’m not speaking about how the stripes in the parking lot are painted.

The Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and as such proclaims the truth with the authority granted unto her by Christ her founder. Protestants do not have that authority.

 

[hn160]

How are today’s Mormons (LDS), Muslims (Islamists) and non-Catholic Protestant Christians (all 36,000 different non-Christian denominations) really that different? After all, they all reject various aspects of Catholicism. They all share the same God of Abraham and they wrote their own “Bibles”, the KJV, the Koran and the Book of Mormon… taking much of what they wrote from the original Catholic Bible. Is there really just two groups of believers, those who are Catholic and those who came after Catholicism, who in my opinion tried to re-invent their religions using the Catholic Model? Or, basically copying the Catholic Church… but on their terms now…

Your thoughts?

First of all catholic means universal, Roman Catholics do not own the term catholic. All that accept at least Trinity and the three Ecumenical Creeds are Christians. The Mormons are not Christian. They do not accept the Trinity and worship a god of this world and in fact a good Mormon could become a god of a world somewhere. Muslims worship a god named Allah

 

[hn160]

I’m not speaking about how the stripes in the parking lot are painted.

The Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and as such proclaims the truth with the authority granted unto her by Christ her founder. Protestants do not have that authority.

It is all in the eye of the beholder as to who has the pillar and the truth.

 

[BrianH]

I’m not speaking about how the stripes in the parking lot are painted.

The Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and as such proclaims the truth with the authority granted unto her by Christ her founder. Protestants do not have that authority.

That is a change of topic. You said Protestants do whatever they want. Protestants is a general term to be sure. However, it refers to specific groups that in many cases absolutely do not do what they want.
I then talked specifically about how that is not the case. Protestants and Catholics do not from what I can tell have different levels of adherence or willingness to follow the authority of their respective churches. The churches and denominations do have authority for their members.
If you want to go specific we can discussing shunning and any number of groups and how they promote adherence to their respective views.
If you want to go that broad I will but it would be helpful if you would talk about one or the other.
What is your preference?

 

[BrianH]

It is all in the eye of the beholder as to who has the pillar and the truth.

Well if we go general, that is an interesting question. It boils down to what is the church? But shouldn’t the practical implications of that authority matter?
Thats where when I evaluate my possible conversion I see Catholicism having a major problem. Catholicism is the mother of all splinter groups. The Reformers were Catholics. And it just keeps splitting.
That is something the East has going for it. That possible pillar appears to have avoided this. The East and West split is far enough removed from the Reformation for the East to be really not culpable for any further splits. Just thinking out loud…

 

[Jimmy_B]

First of all catholic means universal, Roman Catholics do not own the term catholic. All that accept at least Trinity and the three Ecumenical Creeds are Christians. The Mormons are not Christian. They do not accept the Trinity and worship a god of this world and in fact a good Mormon could become a god of a world somewhere. Muslims worship a god named Allah

First of all catholic means universal, Roman Catholics do not own the term catholic.

And, you are basing this belief on what?

I know the difference between the lower case “c” “catholic” and the upper case “C’” Catholic but I don’t know if I understand your point here.

“I then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;”
(Ephesians 4:1-5)

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"*** one body and one Spirit*** …one Lord, one faith, one baptism"******

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How in the world do 36,000 different non-Catholic, Protestant Christian denominations and sub-sects equal “one universal church” or “one faith”?

It can’t and it doesn’t.

Because of the errant Protestant belief that allows for “personal interpretation of the Bible”, “One Faith” could mean just about anything.

Using Protestant logic, one person “guided by the Holy Spirit” could be “right” and the rest of the world, wrong and now we have 36,000 and 1 denominations.

Jesus started ONE Church, with ONE set of beliefs.

There are non-Catholic Christian denominations today, that are actually performing homosexual marriages, because of their particular interpretation of the Bible.

What if a non-Catholic Christian denomination determines abortion ok? Are they still part of the “universal” Church?

Was Jim Jones and the People’s Temple part of the “universal”, “catholic church”?

How about Marshall Applewhite and the Heavens Gate church, where all the members were directed to commit suicide? Before that happened, where they all part of the “universal”, “catholic” church"?

I think that you might have a more esoteric view of the “universal” Church and a less biblically based and realistic view.

Please explain to me how I’m wrong on this.

Thank you for your post, I look forward to your response.