How are omniscience and free will not contradictory?

[davidv]

Knowledge does equal causation. If God knows that you’re going to do something, then you’re going to do it, because God can’t be wrong. If God knows that you’re going to eat chicken for dinner, then you’re going to eat chicken for dinner. You might have freely chosen to eat chicken, but really that choice was made a long time ago - as soon as God knew it it was made. Your free choice was just an illusion, because you were going to eat chicken all along. And what if you decide to eat a hamburger instead? Well, God already knew you were going to do that. If you decide to order Chinese he knew you were going to do that too. Anything you do, God already knows you’re going to do it. It’s like God has nanosecond-by-nanosecond list of things you’re going to do, for your whole life, and you just happily go along doing everything on this list thinking you’re making your own choices, when in reality it’s all been laid out for you already.

None of what you state here proves your first sentence. To me it a bunch of question begging.

 

[davidv]

If we thought of time as a comic strip, God could indeed tell us “Hey, 3 panels from now you’re going to steal a car.” However, we must take into account the fact that God was the one who drew the comic strip that way.

We must also realize that this gives us no choice, a requirement of free will. While it may seem like we could make either choice (steal a car or not) in actual fact we can not, as the choice we will make is already known. There is exactly one comic strip, and we cannot deviate from it. We have no more free will than the images of actors recorded on videotape.

The comic strip analogy here is false because God didn’t draw the comic, you did, by your free choices.

 

[Poseidon]

How does another persons thoughts compel you to do anything? Who preset the path? The observer did not set the path - did they? How could they possibly do so?

It’s not the fact that you know what I will do, it’s the fact that the knowledge of what I will do exists. No one has to know it - it could just be written on a piece of paper, for example. It’s the fact that what will happen in the future has already been decided, therefore I am not making the choices - something or someone else is.

 

[Poseidon]

None of what you state here proves your first sentence. To me it a bunch of question begging.

Could you please explain a little more? I don’t see it as question begging, and I’d like to understand why you do.

 

[davidv]

It’s not the fact that you know what I will do, it’s the fact that the knowledge of what I will do exists. No one has to know it - it could just be written on a piece of paper, for example. It’s the fact that what will happen in the future has already been decided, therefore I am not making the choices - something or someone else is.

What if you were the one who wrote it down on paper?

 

[Poseidon]

The comic strip analogy here is false because God didn’t draw the comic, you did, by your free choices.

So I made the choices before I even existed? Remember, God knows all about a person’s life before they’re even conceived, and a person that doesn’t yet exist can’t make choices. Basically what you’re saying is that I wrote the comic before I was even alive to write anything.

 

[Poseidon]

What if you were the one who wrote it down on paper?

Then it wouldn’t be the future, because I’d know what I was “going to” do and be able to do something else. God, however, already knows that “something else” that I’m going to do, so the future I have is false, and the future God has is the real, inescapable one.

Think of it this way: that future on paper was never true. God already knew that I would discover my “future” and work to change it, meaning that it was never my future at all. And even if I didn’t work to change it, God still knows that I’m going to do that too. No matter what choice I make, God already knows I’m going to make it, so no matter what I do I’m going to do the action that God knows I’m going to do. Therefore I have no free will.

 

[davidv]

Could you please explain a little more? I don’t see it as question begging, and I’d like to understand why you do.

In my view, every one of you supposed supports to the equation, assume the equation is true. For instance,

Poseidon:

If God knows that you’re going to do something, then you’re going to do it, because God can’t be wrong.

How do you logically conclude from this statement the the equation is true? Every one of the other statements is in the exact same form, i.e., God knew, therefore he caused it and does not add anything to the analysis.

 

[Wulfgar]

If we thought of time as a comic strip, God could indeed tell us “Hey, 3 panels from now you’re going to steal a car.” However, we must take into account the fact that God was the one who drew the comic strip that way.

We must also realize that this gives us no choice, a requirement of free will. While it may seem like we could make either choice (steal a car or not) in actual fact we can not, as the choice we will make is already known. There is exactly one comic strip, and we cannot deviate from it. We have no more free will than the images of actors recorded on videotape.

The comic strip analogy might not be accurate for describing how an omniscient being “sees” things in time (though it really helps clarify the problem). Comics represent time as an ordered sequence of events. God would probably see our time as one big panel rather than multiple ones. Such a viewpoint is not exactly something our brains are structured to comprehend, because we’re built to work within the constraints of time.

Additionally, if we do have free will, we would be the artists, not God. We would be the ones unfolding the single, giant panel that God views, at a single instant. All of our free choices would be collectively seen in, according to God, “the big picture”. But again, we wouldn’t be able to comprehend what such a picture would look like; we would just see a standard comic strip consisting of all past events and whatever the present event is. It would be a constantly expanding story from our point of view. Time is always relative, even within our own universe.

At least, that’s how I’m understanding it.

 

[davidv]

Then it wouldn’t be the future, because I’d know what I was “going to” do and be able to do something else. God, however, already knows that “something else” that I’m going to do, so the future I have is false, and the future God has is the real, inescapable one.

Think of it this way: that future on paper was never true. God already knew that I would discover my “future” and work to change it, meaning that it was never my future at all. And even if I didn’t work to change it, God still knows that I’m going to do that too. No matter what choice I make, God already knows I’m going to make it, so no matter what I do I’m going to do the action that God knows I’m going to do. Therefore I have no free will.

Your choices are what wrote it on paper, they are not in your future, eventhough God sees them. So again your conclusion does not follow. It would appear that you cannot even begin to imagine what it is like to see all of reality in an eternal now.

 

[Poseidon]

Your choices are what wrote it on paper, they are not in your future, eventhough God sees them. So again your conclusion does not follow. It would appear that you cannot even begin to imagine what it is like to see all of reality in an eternal now.

Of course I can’t. Neither can you. And how are things that I haven’t done yet not in my future?

 

[davidv]

Of course I can’t. Neither can you.

I can certainly imagine a being not limited by time, who can see all time at once.

And how are things that I haven’t done yet not in my future?

They are in your future, but not in God’s, as he has no future (this is a function of his timelessness).

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

God knows what we will do with our free will. We cannot say God knows our choices before we exist because God is not subjected to time; therefore God knows from eternity which neither has a beginning or end, past or future.

 

[Poseidon]

Exactly. And if at this moment God knows exactly what I’m going to do for the rest of my life then I’m not making those choices, even if I think I am. It doesn’t matter if God is outside of time, because I am not. God has no future, but I do, however my future is already laid out. Going back to the comic analogy, it’s like I’m living panel to panel but God sees all the panels at once. It doesn’t matter that God sees them all at once. It matters that I’m only in one panel at a time, but the future panels are already drawn and I’m just going along with them.

 

[davidv]

Exactly. And if at this moment God knows exactly what I’m going to do for the rest of my life then I’m not making those choices, even if I think I am. It doesn’t matter if God is outside of time, because I am not. God has no future, but I do, however my future is already laid out. Going back to the comic analogy, it’s like I’m living panel to panel but God sees all the panels at once. It doesn’t matter that God sees them all at once. It matters that I’m only in one panel at a time, but the future panels are already drawn and I’m just going along with them.

I am truely sorry, but you have simply restated your original assertion that knowledge = cause. I don’t buy it.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

In my view, every one of you supposed supports to the equation, assume the equation is true. For instance, How do you logically conclude from this statement the the equation is true? Every one of the other statements is in the exact same form, i.e., God knew, therefore he caused it and does not add anything to the analysis.

The point is not God knew therefore he caused it. The point is God knew AND caused it, therefore it was God’s will, not ours, that has made our decisions.

The original question was “How do you rectify these things?” so of course we are starting from the point of view that they are incompatible. Someone asked for elaboration on this point of view and it has been provided. Now we should start explaining how they are compatible.

 

[davidv]

The point is not God knew therefore he caused it. The point is God knew AND caused it, therefore it was God’s will, not ours, that has made our decisions.

The original question was “How do you rectify these things?” so of course we are starting from the point of view that they are incompatible. Someone asked for elaboration on this point of view and it has been provided. Now we should start explaining how they are compatible.

They are compatable because your assumption above, “AND caused it” has not been demonstrated and it is the sole reason for the presumed incompatibility.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

God knows what we will do with our free will. We cannot say God knows our choices before we exist because God is not subjected to time; therefore God knows from eternity which neither has a beginning or end, past or future.

Indeed. When God looks at the world he sees a fixed comic strip. Perhaps more correctly, he sees a fixed 4D statue.

Does a statue decide its own shape? No, the sculptor does. God knew exactly the shape of the statue he would sculpt, and sculpted it in a instant.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

They are compatable because your assumption above, “AND caused it” has not been demonstrated and it is the sole reason for the presumed incompatibility.

So there exist things which are not God and not caused by God?

 

[Wulfgar]

Exactly. And if at this moment God knows exactly what I’m going to do for the rest of my life then I’m not making those choices, even if I think I am. It doesn’t matter if God is outside of time, because I am not. God has no future, but I do, however my future is already laid out. Going back to the comic analogy, it’s like I’m living panel to panel but God sees all the panels at once. It doesn’t matter that God sees them all at once. It matters that I’m only in one panel at a time, but the future panels are already drawn and I’m just going along with them.

Just to reiterate what davidv said, the important thing to understand is that YOU are the author of the comic strip, not God. He provides the material universe for you, and you “rearrange” some of it through your free choices. To us, we lay each event out one at a time; to God, he sees each production of each event occurring at a single instant. So in a sense, predetermination may apply if we see OURSELVES as the ones predetermining everything.