How are omniscience and free will not contradictory?

[davidv]

So there exist things which are not God and not caused by God?

I am not God, but my soul was created by God in partnership with my parents.

My choices are not God, and are not cause by God, they are caused by me.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Indeed. When God looks at the world he sees a fixed comic strip. Perhaps more correctly, he sees a fixed 4D statue.

Does a statue decide its own shape? No, the sculptor does. God knew exactly the shape of the statue he would sculpt, and sculpted it in a instant.

Free will isn’t the ability to choose all things and it isn’t having the right to choose all things. Free will is simply the ability to either accept or reject what has been presented to you. God can dictate when you live, when you die, what you look like, and what situations come your way but these things do no effect your free will since you’re still able to accept or reject realities even though the situations that shape or present said realities are beyond your control.

 

[Poseidon]

Just to reiterate what davidv said, the important thing to understand is that YOU are the author of the comic strip, not God. He provides the material universe for you, and you “rearrange” some of it through your free choices. To us, we lay each event out one at a time; to God, he sees each production of each event occurring at a single instant. So in a sense, predetermination may apply if we see OURSELVES as the ones predetermining everything.

But God has always known everything about my life. Before he even created the universe he knew what choices I would make. And since he knew it then, my life was already determined then, however, I was not yet in existence so I can’t have been the one to make those choices. You can say that those are the choices I would have made, but by saying that you’re basically saying “God looks at what you would have done and makes it what you do.” Essentially there is no “would have done” because God’s determining the whole thing. And I can’t be the one making those choices, because people who don’t exist can’t make choices. Not even God could do that because it’s nonsense along the lines of a green happiness or an invisible pink unicorn.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

But God has always known everything about my life. Before he even created the universe he knew what choices I would make. And since he knew it then, my life was already determined then, however, I was not yet in existence so I can’t have been the one to make those choices. You can say that those are the choices I would have made, but by saying that you’re basically saying “God looks at what you would have done and makes it what you do.” Essentially there is no “would have done” because God’s determining the whole thing. And I can’t be the one making those choices, because people who don’t exist can’t make choices. Not even God could do that because it’s nonsense along the lines of a green happiness or an invisible pink unicorn.

Those choices aren’t what you “would” have done they are what you WILL do with your free will. God knew you before you were even born because you have existed in Gods will from eternity.

“Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee”–Jeremiah 1:5

 

[jochoa]

No matter how I think of it, I can’t find any way to logically allow the coexistence of omniscience and free will. How do you view this, and how do you justify the two seemingly contradictory propositions?

Excellent questions, my friend! The justification lies in timeliness perspective. Please consider the following concepts:
God, the Father, first thinks of all the things our souls freely choose. During this time, He is thinking, therefore He does not know what we will choose.
Then, He gives physical life to our souls. Since our physical life will proceed precisely according to what our souls freely chose, God knows everything that will physically happen.

In conclusion…
Right now God is thinking (because He does not know) of all the things our free-willed souls are choosing many years in our future, His Present. And what is physically happening right now, thoughtfully occurred many years ago in God’s past (therefore He knows everything that will happen).

 

[yellow8yellowM]

But God has always known everything about my life. Before he even created the universe he knew what choices I would make. And since he knew it then, my life was already determined then, however, I was not yet in existence so I can’t have been the one to make those choices. You can say that those are the choices I would have made, but by saying that you’re basically saying “God looks at what you would have done and makes it what you do.” Essentially there is no “would have done” because God’s determining the whole thing. And I can’t be the one making those choices, because people who don’t exist can’t make choices. Not even God could do that because it’s nonsense along the lines of a green happiness or an invisible pink unicorn.

Poseidon, go boil a pot of water. Stand in front of it and decide whether or not you will immerse your hand in it. You may not think you have free will, but it sure nice to feel like we do!

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Knowledge does not equal causation. Paraphrasing from the Catholic.com:

If you know the sun will rise tomorrow, did you cause it to rise?

 

[Wulfgar]

But God has always known everything about my life. Before he even created the universe he knew what choices I would make. And since he knew it then, my life was already determined then, however, I was not yet in existence so I can’t have been the one to make those choices. You can say that those are the choices I would have made, but by saying that you’re basically saying “God looks at what you would have done and makes it what you do.” Essentially there is no “would have done” because God’s determining the whole thing. And I can’t be the one making those choices, because people who don’t exist can’t make choices. Not even God could do that because it’s nonsense along the lines of a green happiness or an invisible pink unicorn.

Again, the issue is that God’s realm of existence has nothing to do with time. He doesn’t at one moment “not create”, and then at a later moment “create” the universe, because that would mean he is constrained by time. He experiences all eternity at once; what you’re saying is that he is preconceiving the actions of a currently non-existent being, thereby “creating” that to-be being’s actions (“currently” implies time, though, and thus it’s not an accurate choice of word because there’s no time where God is, but you get the picture). This doesn’t work outside of time, because by definition, there is not time outside of time.

 

[Poseidon]

Poseidon, go boil a pot of water. Stand in front of it and decide whether or not you will immerse your hand in it. You may not think you have free will, but it sure nice to feel like we do!

I don’t see your point here…

 

[yellow8yellowM]

I don’t see your point here…

I am assuming you did immerse your hand in the boiling pot of water…Why not? You chose not to because you knew it would hurt.

My point was that even if you believe that we have no free will, you must acknowledge that for all intents and purposes, it sure seems like we do. Even if you think you were predetermined to read my post, go to the boiling water, ponder it, and walk away unscathed, you must admit that it seems like you decided yourself.

 

[Poseidon]

I am assuming you did immerse your hand in the boiling pot of water…Why not? You chose not to because you knew it would hurt.

My point was that even if you believe that we have no free will, you must acknowledge that for all intents and purposes, it sure seems like we do. Even if you think you were predetermined to read my post, go to the boiling water, ponder it, and walk away unscathed, you must admit that it seems like you decided yourself.

But seeming like I have free will and * it are two completely different things. From my point of view the earth seems to be huge, solid, and unmoving, while the sky seems to revolve around it. However we now know this to be untrue through rational inquiry. As another example, my desk seems to be solid, but we actually know that seemingly solid matter is 99.9999% empty space.*

 

[yellow8yellowM]

But seeming like I have free will and * it are two completely different things. From my point of view the earth seems to be huge, solid, and unmoving, while the sky seems to revolve around it. However we now know this to be untrue through rational inquiry. As another example, my desk seems to be solid, but we actually know that seemingly solid matter is 99.9999% empty space.*

You are correct on all counts. I did not claim that that they were the same thing. In a roundabout way I am kind of saying who cares if there is so much empty space in between the orbitals of the electrons in your desk. When you slip and your head bounces off of it it sure seems like it is solid, so let’s live life with the assumption that it is solid.

In the same way, it seems like we have free will, so let’s live life like we do. You must admit that you do live your life this way.

 

[wcknight]

But seeming like I have free will and * it are two completely different things. From my point of view the earth seems to be huge, solid, and unmoving, while the sky seems to revolve around it. However we now know this to be untrue through rational inquiry. As another example, my desk seems to be solid, but we actually know that seemingly solid matter is 99.9999% empty space.*

BUT you in fact did have free will not to put your hand into boiling water. The fact that everyone here knew in advance that you would not do so, does not make us “cause” you not to do so. The choice was always yours.

I think given our free will God can choses not to ‘steer’ us on any particular path. He did not want to create robots. What would be the enjoyment in knowing everything that would happen in advance. I think He is capable of seeing eveyrthing in advance, and He is capable of making anything happen that He wants to but I think He simply chooses not to, at least in most cases.

In the case of sending us His Son, that was one of the events that He pre-ordained. Even in the case of Judas, Judas had choices to make, and he made them on his own. Even though God knows our weaknesses, and strenghs, he lets us choose whether we want to follow God’s will or our own. Judas’ problem was he thought he knew better how to handle things than God, and that will always get you into trouble.

Given the political climate, odds are the pharisees and sadducees would have probably had Jesus murdered anyway. Judas helped in the process but he was not the main or only cause of Christ’s death.

 

[Eleve]

So I made the choices before I even existed?

No. You make the choices when you make the choices, but God is able to know about them before you make them. This requires retrocausality, but if you’re talking about omniscience then that ship has already sailed.