How are spirits seen?

[Bahman]

You could (in theory) have a black hole with a wormhole connecting it to another point in space. The fact that we can’t access this doesn’t exclude its possibility.

I didn’t say otherwise.

That be the case than the sole reality that the past -future do not exist would be false.

Let me correct myself. The past is a part of memory unless it is unexperienced and future is unaccessible unless it is experienced (deja vu).

Point being that be the case than something seen in a spiritual sense or physical for than matter may indeed be possible.

I didn’t say otherwise.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What is matter is not made of matter.

Then your agreeing?

299,742,458 m/s, is the universal “speed limit” of physical mass, Anything moving past this speed is pure energy, so matter can be converted to energy and visa-versa. So relativity describes the physical fabric of the universe in terms of dimension within our time continuum thus 4-dimensions, thus actual space-time continuum dimensions of the universe can be for sure altered.

 

[Bahman]

Then your agreeing?

299,742,458 m/s, is the universal “speed limit” of physical mass, Anything moving past this speed is pure energy, so matter can be converted to energy and visa-versa. So relativity describes the physical fabric of the universe in terms of dimension within our time continuum thus 4-dimensions, thus actual space-time continuum dimensions of the universe can be for sure altered.

What we experience as external world, space, time, mass, etc is only the minimal level of reality needed for living. The existence has infinite folds each fold can hold infinite forms and being different from another, so called mind each, the form being memory.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What we experience as external world, space, time, mass, etc is only the minimal level of reality needed for living. The existence has infinite folds each fold can hold infinite forms and being different from another, so called mind each, the form being memory.

Right, so what I guess I’m saying is that it seems rather contradictory as far as spirits go, to consider the phenomenon delusional, or merely rule it out. In theory we would be attempting to do what we would then deny can be done.

Not that this is what your saying, but just my further thinking. As to what is seen or heard, I have no idea.

 

[GEddie]

‘material’ ???

That is such an outdated concept in this age of quantum physics and dark energy and virtual particles, and holographic universes, and uncertainty principles and…

Whoooh.

Use your physical head, and not your smattering of philosophy for a moment.

The earth under your feet is material; the sarx of your soma is material.

Light and heat are not material, but can be so converted by the Einsteinian equation.

The thoughts in our heads are not material, unless we do something with them using our material limbs.

“Material” may not jibe with modern philosophical physics, but it is close enough for human life.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Back2Church]

Okay, most of the responses went for seeing with the mind or sensing with the same. I would agree that the mind may perceive spirits, by some part of the brain; or perhaps by the soul. But, if you place it all within the confines of the mind, it can be said it 's just a hallucination. What’s the difference between a hallucination and a real spiritual experience?

The difference is just that. One is a hallucination and one is a real spiritual experience. What you are questioning is our ability to distinguish between the two. This is where reason comes in. The quick and simple test is to evaluate the fruits of the experience. Did the experience glorify God? Did it bring about some good that is easily understood as being compatible with God’s will? Then it very well could have been a real experience.

Also what do you do with a situation were there are multiple witnesses to the same spiritual experience? Do they all see the same thing within their minds?:whacky:

Yes, they all see the same things with their minds. Is that really such a bizarre concept? If a single person’s brain can receive and process spiritual “information” (for lack of a better word) which produces the effect of “seeing” a spirit, then why couldn’t multiple people receive and process this same information?

There was a study years ago where a doctor used electromagnets to stimulate people’s brains so that they would experience various sensations that felt like spiritual phenomena to the subject. The goal of the study was to show that spiritual experiences are generated by the brain and completely explainable by psychology. The problem with the conclusion is that the study only showed that our brains can be manipulated by external sources in ways that alter our perceptions, making us see, hear, and feel things that aren’t “there” to the usual five senses. So one could come up with the exact opposite conclusion of what the doctor concluded, in that it showed that our brains are capable of non-physical perception. So if spirits exist, then this study showed a possible method of how we could perceive them.

Back to your question of whether a group of people could all “see” the same spirit, just consider the fact that a spirit is not physical, so not bound to space. In other words, it’s not a body standing in front of the group of people for them to “look at”, but rather an intelligence that could “communicate” with all of them, seemingly at once. So sure, they could all “see” (ie, receive the same “transmission” of information from) the same spirit.

 

[Ion]

If you were to see the devil, how bad that can be? How should you prepare?

 

[Lion_IRC]

‘material’ ???

That is such an outdated concept in this age of quantum physics and dark energy and virtual particles, and holographic universes, and uncertainty principles and…

Whoooh.

Use your physical head, and not your smattering of philosophy for a moment.

The earth under your feet is material; the sarx of your soma is material.

Light and heat are not material, but can be so converted by the Einsteinian equation.

The thoughts in our heads are not material, unless we do something with them using our material limbs.

“Material” may not jibe with modern philosophical physics, but it is close enough for human life.

ICXC NIKA

LOL
You’re asking me to ‘use’ my head. That deep!

The Op asks about how we see spirits. Well we “see” with our eyes. And they see light/energy just fine. Noise is energy too, and we “hear” what comes out of the minds of other souls (in the form of sound) just fine. And which part of my head do I use when this is happening? Where does molecule end and nephesh begin?

I don’t think Newtonian physics is/was able to explain the question asked by the Op. (If the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem resembles a nail.)

But the old dichotomy of matter OR energy is defunct. Particle/Wave?

21st century physics cant say if we are looking at a clear picture of a fuzzy reality, or a fuzzy picture of a clear reality.

Can I recommend for you, a good book which talks about the wacky, spooky, metaphysical nature of space/time and sends shivers down your spine as it explores the enigmatic origins of a uni/multiverse which has always existed?

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/.a/6a00d8341c562c53ef0168e4edebee970c-320wi

 

[The_Serpent]

The difference is just that. One is a hallucination and one is a real spiritual experience. What you are questioning is our ability to distinguish between the two. This is where reason comes in. The quick and simple test is to evaluate the fruits of the experience. Did the experience glorify God? Did it bring about some good that is easily understood as being compatible with God’s will? Then it very well could have been a real experience.

Yes, they all see the same things with their minds. Is that really such a bizarre concept? If a single person’s brain can receive and process spiritual “information” (for lack of a better word) which produces the effect of “seeing” a spirit, then why couldn’t multiple people receive and process this same information?

There was a study years ago where a doctor used electromagnets to stimulate people’s brains so that they would experience various sensations that felt like spiritual phenomena to the subject. The goal of the study was to show that spiritual experiences are generated by the brain and completely explainable by psychology. The problem with the conclusion is that the study only showed that our brains can be manipulated by external sources in ways that alter our perceptions, making us see, hear, and feel things that aren’t “there” to the usual five senses. So one could come up with the exact opposite conclusion of what the doctor concluded, in that it showed that our brains are capable of non-physical perception. So if spirits exist, then this study showed a possible method of how we could perceive them.

Back to your question of whether a group of people could all “see” the same spirit, just consider the fact that a spirit is not physical, so not bound to space. In other words, it’s not a body standing in front of the group of people for them to “look at”, but rather an intelligence that could “communicate” with all of them, seemingly at once. So sure, they could all “see” (ie, receive the same “transmission” of information from) the same spirit.

So do you view spirits as being magnetic in nature, perhaps a self sustaining magnetic field? Maybe they could generate a magnetic field?

 

[Skye_Ariel]

Okay, most of the responses went for seeing with the mind or sensing with the same. I would agree that the mind may perceive spirits, by some part of the brain; or perhaps by the soul. But, if you place it all within the confines of the mind, it can be said it 's just a hallucination. What’s the difference between a hallucination and a real spiritual experience? Also what do you do with a situation were there are multiple witnesses to the same spiritual experience? Do they all see the same thing within their minds?:whacky:

True, but people can also say that about visual images seen too, even when more than one person sees it like with the virgin Mary sighting where she made the sun dance. Many people saw that with their eyes but still some said it was mass hallucination. But groups of people can sense things at the same time with their spiritual eyes. Many people in a room can feel a presence when nothing is seen with the eyes.

 

[Back2Church]

So do you view spirits as being magnetic in nature, perhaps a self sustaining magnetic field? Maybe they could generate a magnetic field?

Like all the paranormal shows on TV claim? No, I don’t think so.

I didn’t mean to say that the study showed us exactly how we perceive spirits, but simply that it showed us that our brains are capable of receiving and processing information from external sources which is not obtained through the five senses. By “same method”, i meant at the spirit is essentially applying information onto the brain from without it. The study used electromagnetism to accomplish this, but perhaps spirits can do something similar by using a “spiritual force”, for lack of better terminology.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

In scripture there are many examples of angels interacting with people. Moses and the Prophets saw God. And many Saints have interacted with spirits. So the question is … How do we see spirits; which are immaterial?:hypno:

My post below is a copy of an email I sent to Serpent earlier. At the time I was unable to post on the Forum for some unknown reason, so I sent an email directly to Serpent instread. However it is about the topic, so I’m repeating it here.

Hi.

I’m only sending this by private email as for some reason I don’t seem to be able to post messages on the forum at the moment. I don’t know if it’s just me, or if there’s a problem with the whole setup at the moment.

With regard to your question “How are Spirit’s Seen?”, I’ve often mentioned that on the night my own father died, he appeared in my room. He “materialised” near the bedroom door, and moved towards the foot of the bed. We argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this almighty scream and then just disappeared. That was 35 years ago and I still remember it.

It was quite obvious something was coming for him at the end, going by his “body language”, hence the terrifying scream. I think he’s in Hell personally.

However he was spiritual. He died several kilometres away, and I wasn’t told by normal human means that he’d died till four days later, since his body wasn’t found for four days.

So I had no idea he’d died. I had no control whatsoever over his appearing in my room, and no control over his disappearing again immediately after the scream. I was just the manipulated witness.

I don’t know how we communicated. He was dead, which meant he had no brain, no eyes, no voicebox, no tongue etc. Yet it was quite obvious he was thinking, seeing, talking, and all the rest. He even predicted a few future events, some of which have already taken place.

Even St. Paul, when he wrote about being snatched up to the third heaven, stated he didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body. It’s very subtle.

We could extend this a lot further. At Fatima, 70,000 people saw the dancing sun, and experienced the sudden drying of clothes and ground after drenching rain. But why just them? If the sun really danced, the whole world would have been aware of it.

When the two disciples walked with Christ towards Emmaus, at one point it states “their eyes were opened”. Frankly, I think it would be more accurate if it had said, “God opened their eyes”. They were physically prevented from recognising Christ as He walked right next to them for miles, until He’d managed to explain how the Scriptures pointed to Him. I mean if you walked next to someone for miles on end, talking to them as you went, don’t you think you’d get a pretty good look at their features?

But if He hadn’t kept them in the dark, they’d have been so excited that He wouldn’t have been able to retain their attention to explain the background in detail. Incidentally it’s a pity we haven’t got an Emmaus Gospel, had the two disciples actually put stylus to potsherd and given us a record of what Christ said…

Ultimately God’s behind it - He was the one who sent my father the night he died, so that I, and only I, could see and talk with him. And I had no control over it whatsoever.

He was the one who snatched up Paul to the third heaven, either literally, or in a visionary sense. He was one the one who “closed” the eyes of the two disciples on the way to Emmaus and “opened” them when He’d finished his homily on the Messiah’s suffering in Scripture. He was the one who revealed the Transfiguration to Peter, John and James only, and no one else.

It’s up to God. When He wants to provide a spiritual - physical interface, He has no trouble doing so, anymore than He had trouble making an entire universe out of nothing.

Regards,

Bob Crowley

 

[The_Serpent]

My post below is a copy of an email I sent to Serpent earlier. At the time I was unable to post on the Forum for some unknown reason, so I sent an email directly to Serpent instread. However it is about the topic, so I’m repeating it here.

Just a thought, … but the shock of death might be the source of the screaming. Also, … the prediction of future events might indicate a person that went to Heaven.