How are we saved?

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For a good defence of the Catholic understanding of justification and salvation, from the perspectives of two Evangelical converts to Catholicism, I highly recommend the relevent chaptes in Dave Armstrong’s A Biblical Defence of Catholicism (you can get this cheap in .doc format, his site is ic.net/~erasmus/BOOKS.HTM) and David Currie’s Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, which is avaliable on amazon and such…and I think on this very site as well.

Here’s an explanation of the Catholic understanding of justification as I understand it that I wrote for another thread once:
The Church teaches that justification is by grace through faith and works. Sola fide (faith alone) is rejected by the Church as heresy, but sola gracia (grace alone) is upheld as sound teaching. We must realize that neither faith nor works can save us. All the faith in the world would be nothing, without grace. Likewise, all the works under the sun would be, as you said in the other thread, like filthy rags without grace. This is where the distinction must be made. Both faith and works are worthless if they do not flow from God’s grace. Our salvation is only made possible because Christ took our eternal penalty on the tree at Calvary; however, this perfect work of Christ must be applied to each of us. God has given us freewill, so we must accept this gift and co-operate with him. Not just once (the moment you accept Christ), but all through our lives. Catholics can say that we merit salvation, but only in a secondary and derivative sense. The grace that Christ gives us leads to faith. This grace-empowered faith leads to works. The two go hand in hand. Our faith and works become our way of co-operating with God’s plan for our salvation, and become worthy of merit before God because Christ’s merit is applied to us through his grace. Do you understand what I am saying? The faith and works in and of themselves are nothing, but when they flow from the grace Christ has given us, they become creditable.

One thing that really hit home for me was the realization that even the Evangelical position requires human effort to obtain salvation. If we are to say that there is nothing we can do to be saved, then logically, all human beings should be saved automatically…as Christ’s grace would be universally applied; however, we know that this is not the case. Even in the Evangelical view, one must make an conscious act of the will, exert a mental effort, to decide to accept Christ and to repent of one’s sins. In a sense, this is a work, as it is an act of the will, and takes effort on our part. But this is only made possible by grace in the first place (remember, the Father must draw us to His Son before we can accept Him), so we can not take credit for it, even though our effort was involved. So once you realize that even the Evangelical view requires human effort, it falls into place (at least for me) that works, those that are the fruit of the grace God has given us, can also play a role in our part in salvation.

If you are to say that salvation involves no effort on our part, then even personal repentance should be unnecessary. Every step of the way, we must choose to continue to co-operate with God, or to reject His grace. We should not be terrified, however, for we trust that God will always provide us with the grace necessary to persevere.
 
Here’s another post I wrote on this topic:
The Church does indeed teach that salvation has been procured through Christ’s death on the cross. One must understand, though, that Christ’s work now must be applied to each of us individually…otherwise all would be saved automatically. I explained in my original post, that even the Evangelical view requires human effort to be saved (one must accept Christ’s free gift of salvation and repent of your sins…this is a human effort, however you look at it, even though this effort is only possible because of grace, there is still something humans must do). The Catholic position is based on the constant teaching of the Church, as passed down by the Apostles. If one looks at all of the Scriptures, not just a few passages here and there, within the context of what the Apostolic Church believed and taught, I believe that it becomes clear that justification is by grace alone, but that this grace leads to faith, which in turn leads to works, which play an important role in our justification.

Protestants often start with the Pauline letters for their understanding of justification. Is this fair? Jesus is the founder of our religion, not to mention our God, so should we not start with His teachings? Paul’s writings are an extension of His teachings, written to particular churches for varying reasons. Jesus’ parables make it clear that justification is by the grace of God, but that works are an integral component of this justification. This is our way of responding to God’s grace, as long as the works are the fruit of grace. Did not our Lord say “Any tree that does not bear fruit shall be cut down and thrown into the fire.”? (Matt. 7:19). Our Lord, on multiple occasion, in parables and in sermons, emphasizes the importance of works. Never once does he say that only faith is necessary (as faith itself is a work, in a sense, as I explained in my original set of posts). Never would anyone get, from reading the Gospels, that works are unnecessary. It is only when one starts with the letters of Paul, and then looks at the teachings of Christ and St. James and tries to impose one’s understanding of Paul into those passages that one can say anything different. Just read, for example, Matthew 25. Can it honestly be said that Jesus does not emphasize that works as necessary in this chapter? He teaches that if your faith does not lead to works, there is no salvation. Paul is writing in the context of a Church that often tends towards a heresy that says the works of the Law are necessary for salvation, which undermines the role of grace; thus he emphasizes faith, as it is the start of our Christian journey, and our initial response to God. But even Paul tells us that faith will lead to works, and warns that “the homosexual, fornicator, liar, etc…” shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. (This isn’t from any particular list of ‘mortal sins’ that Paul cites, I’m just giving an example of the type of things he lists, see for example 1 Cor. 6:9). As well he exhorts the faithful to “work out their salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12). We do not need to work for our salvation, but we must work it out…allow the Spirit to work in our lives so that we produce fruit. Remember, faith without works is dead, and that such faith can not save us. (James 2:14-17).
 
I believe that the following passages, when taken together, support the Catholic understanding of justification:
Matthew 7:21-23
John 14:15
John 15:10
James 2:14-26
John 15:1-8
Matthew 18:23-35
Matthew 6:14-15 (the necessity of forgiving one’s brother to be forgiven)
Matthew 24:36-51
Matthew 25 (all of it! 🙂 )
Luke 13:6-9

God bless.
In Christ with Mary,
Tyler
 
That last option is like asking, do you beat your wife? 1) Yes 2) No. I want to. 3) No, not anymore.

Kind of puts the answerer in a position to either agree with your answer or look foolish/wrong.

I attended a Baptist high school. They teach salvation through faith and not works, but not that you can do whatever you want. Ephesians 2: 8-9. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved through faith, that cannot be earned, is quite biblical. However, that does not mean that behavior is irrelevant. Works are important:James 2:20-26

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We can’t earn salvation, as clearly pointed out in Ephesians. However, while works are the fruits of faith. Works can’t save you, but without works you clearly lack the needed faith.

It’s like writing a check without money in the bank–you can say you have an adequate balance and your debt is paid, but if you didn’t bother making any deposits (works) then your check isn’t really worth much.

Catholics on this site, correctly, do not like being misrepresented by non-catholics. Please, lets not misrepresent our non-catholic christian brethren either. They love Jesus too–some of them lead me to Him.

Blessings to all.
 
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chrisb:
Peace be with you all.

I would suggest that we are saved by God’s Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ.

In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation–in Him when you believed–were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. - Eph 1:13

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is* the gift of God:* - Eph 2:8
Peace.
This is correct! It is only through God’s infinite grace, through faith, that we are saved. Grace only is wrong, Faith only is wrong.

Good works come from our faith. Our faith is in Jesus Christ, so that’s part of the answer to be sure.
 
we are saved the minute that we are baptized with water and invoking the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost…

then, we must try to live a Christ-Like life… we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling… just ask St Paul…
👍
 
space ghost:
we are saved the minute that we are baptized with water and invoking the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost…

then, we must try to live a Christ-Like life… we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling… just ask St Paul…
👍
I second this reply since at Baptism we were saved, and we hope to be saved when we pass from this life into the next.

Maggie
 
We cannot save ourselves. The only way we can be saved is by God granting us His Grace. How do we earn this Grace? By passing justification from Jesus upon our death.

We are saved by Gods Grace alone.:bowdown:
 
That’s a great question, Cest. I’m glad you asked!

Also an easy answer!

“not by faith alone”

“Faith without works is dead”

When the man came to Jesus and asked what he had to do to be saved, Jesus told him, “FOLLOW THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!” Give up everything you own and leave everyone you love to follow me.

He did NOT say to the man, “Just ask me to come into your heart, believe in me and you will be saved.”

And then he died a horrible death so people could cut up the Bible during the reformation to match their own adjenda.

I’m so glad to be Catholic! I love this plan Jesus laid down for us, I’m GLAD to be a part of it and I want the entire world to know to come JOIN US! 😃
 
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michaelp:
I don’t think this this option is fair.

“By faith alone. I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. Then I can sin all I want and it won’t matter. I don’t have to do any works of love or pray or anything. I can do what I want.”

It shows a great lack of understanding of the Evangelical postition.

Remember, when presenting the postition of another, do it in such a way that they would listen to it and say, “That is exactly what we believe.” Otherwise, it is the very definition of a straw man.

I am looking for an honest answer. Do all Catholics really believe that this is a fair discription of the Evangelical postition of how a person is saved?

Michael
Not at all. It applies only to the OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) types, and even then, there are only a few of these who would dare to insist upon the statement presented above: “I don’t have to do any works of love or pray or anything. I can do what I want.”

Catholics frequently misunderstand Evangelicals just like Catholics are often misunderstood by Evangelicals. I am even more aware of this as this week (Jan 18th to 25th) has been declared “Christian Unity Week” for Catholics. We are reminded of our duty to collaborate with all other Christians in our common work of spreading the Gospel Message and building up the Kingdom of God in the world.

When Evangelicals speak of “faith alone,” they don’t mean that “faith” by itself saves a person. They believe that the object of faith is Christ, and it is He that saves a person by their faith in Him, not by their works. This does not mean that Evangelicals do not encourage good works. They see good works as part of sanctification not salvation. Catholics, on the other hand, do not juxtapose salvation from sanctification. They see both as processes. Most Evangelicals understand salvation as occuring once, during one’s life, when a person accepts Jesus Christ to be their personal Lord and their Savior. For the Catholic, salvation takes place at the end of one’s life if one is found to be in a state of sanctifying grace. Catholics place a great deal of emphasis upon a communal role in salvation and sanctification, as opposed to a strictly individual role.

BTW, Rev. Michael, your website is nicely done. May the Master continue to bless you as you faithfully serve Him. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
By accepting Science and leaving fiction behind (funny, I didnt see that in the poll)
 
Disregarding the directly above post, I first wish to say that none of the options seem feasible to my belief on salvation.

I am a Roman Catholic, and like perhaps many others, many have asked me about my belief on salvation, whether it is via faith alone or good works.

The Bible does say that it is not by our good works that we are saved, but by God’s grace, because we believe. Therefore, many protestants think that so long as they believe, regardless of however much they may sin, they will be saved. This, however, I do not believe.

As someone above has said, grace only is wrong. Faith only is wrong too. What I wish to explain is what believing really is.

It is of utmost ease to proclaim with our lips, minds and hearts that we believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Jesus really died for us to save us, etc. but that is not what I really call believing.

As Christians, we should act out our belief. This is by loving others, thus serving them and doing good. I personally believe that “believing in God” is somewhat a two-fold thing. Firstly, love God. Next, love others. The best evidence in the Bible that I can find for this is the great commandment - love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your…etd and Love your neighbour as yourself.

We must develop a personal and intimate relationship with God and only then can we know Him. Also, we must love others and serve others, just as Jesus taught us to. Therefore, doing good is part and parcel of believing. The best way to show God’s love is in our actions.

Of course, ultimately, it will be God who judges us and only He will know whether we will be saved or not.

I hope this helps. God bless.
 
space ghost:
we are saved the minute that we are baptized with water and invoking the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost…

then, we must try to live a Christ-Like life… we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling… just ask St Paul…
👍
I’m rather puzzled how the catholic church declares people “born again” through baptism.

Now, if they’re deriving this from Jn 3, then I believe this a huge error.

The passage reads:

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now as I understand it, catholics will point out that “born of water and of the Spirit” refers to one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than “born of water and of the Spirit,” as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit, therefore Baptism.

The key verse is verse six, which clarifies the previous statement by the Lord. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit”.
This definitley sounds like 2 births (flesh and spirit) as opposed to 1, representing baptism.

Personally, I understand the passage referring to my default original state of sin (original sin I guess) or as Paul states in Eph 2 “alienated from God”. I need to be regenerated by the HS (this happens when I accept Christ as my saviour and Lord of my life), and not by a work, like Baptism.

Tit 3:5 **Not by works of righteousness **(baptism is a work believe it or not) which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The HS is the one who performs the action of regeneration or being “born again”, not a ritual.

peace
 
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josiah:
I’m rather puzzled how the catholic church declares people “born again” through baptism.

Now, if they’re deriving this from Jn 3, then I believe this a huge error.

The passage reads:

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now as I understand it, catholics will point out that “born of water and of the Spirit” refers to one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than “born of water and of the Spirit,” as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit, therefore Baptism.

The key verse is verse six, which clarifies the previous statement by the Lord. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit”.
This definitley sounds like 2 births (flesh and spirit) as opposed to 1, representing baptism.

Personally, I understand the passage referring to my default original state of sin (original sin I guess) or as Paul states in Eph 2 “alienated from God”. I need to be regenerated by the HS (this happens when I accept Christ as my saviour and Lord of my life), and not by a work, like Baptism.

Tit 3:5 **Not by works of righteousness **(baptism is a work believe it or not) which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The HS is the one who performs the action of regeneration or being “born again”, not a ritual.

peace
Titus 3:8 goes on to say “good deeds are excellent and profitable to men.” They further justify us before God - “what we have done” refers to a work of the law or obligation for which we seek payment. The washing of regeneration in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace for which we are rewared by God in Christ.

The works of righteousness spoken of here and in Paul’s letters are totally different from the “works” spoken of in James, for example. The works spoken of by Paul are “works of the law”, that is, the Mosaic law. Jews did the required works that did not have the spirit of the law - no belief in Christ. In other words, legal works (works which oblige God to give us payment - a debt system). The works spoken of by James are works based on grace (God owes us nothing) - what we call cardinal works of mercy - feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, etc. You are applying the meaning of works of the law to works based on grace. They are 2 different things.


Baptism is not only a “ritual,” it is a sacrament - an outward sign of an inward reality. The washing itself takes away sin as St. Peter says (I’m at work and I don’t have my bible so I can’t reference the verse but you know it) It’s not like the washing away of dirt from the body…etc. It’s the actual washing that takes away the sin and saves us.


 
I would just like to add Mark 16:16.

Jesus said, “Whoever believes in me and is baptised shall be saved, but whoever does not believe shall be condemned.”

Since Jesus said it, and we should follow Jesus’ word 100%, then baptism is essential and crucial.
 
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zephel:
I would just like to add Mark 16:16.

Jesus said, "Whoever believes in me and is baptised shall be saved, but whoever does not believe shall be condemned."

Since Jesus said it, and we should follow Jesus’ word 100%, then baptism is essential and crucial.
Look at the verse closely. Who will be condemned? Answer: Those who do not believe. Right! Not, those who don’t believe and are not baptised.

Josiah
 
Another verse says “…now baptism saves you”. Also if you look at John 3 what is spoken about directly afterwards? Baptism. The whole context is baptismal.
 
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michaelp:
I don’t think this this option is fair.

“By faith alone. I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. Then I can sin all I want and it won’t matter. I don’t have to do any works of love or pray or anything. I can do what I want.”

It shows a great lack of understanding of the Evangelical postition.

Remember, when presenting the postition of another, do it in such a way that they would listen to it and say, “That is exactly what we believe.” Otherwise, it is the very definition of a straw man.

I am looking for an honest answer. Do all Catholics really believe that this is a fair discription of the Evangelical postition of how a person is saved?

Michael
Of course not Michael! That was a very uncharitable way to skew the poll.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church, 166

Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbour impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers, I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

That is real faith. Believing and spreading the good news.

Also, James 2:17-26 explains that good works is essential as well. Good works is a part of believing. It demonstrates your love for others.

Basically, we must believe and lead a Christian life by evangelising and doing good, loving and serving others. This way, we will be assured of salvation.
 
I tihnk you have missed a good answer in Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Doesn’t this seem clear?
  1. God offers grace, meaning a gift of salvation is offered.
  2. We accept it through faith (or sections say our faith grows through hearing the Word of God)
  3. We have nothing to do with it, it would be like boasting someone else gave you a nice gift - why boast, what did you do, accept it? Big deal 😃
  4. God’s plan for us is not just about salvation, it’s about salvation so we can glorify God through the good works we do. Other verses say that the lack of good works are ***indication ***the faith is not there, they are ***not ***directly a cause of our salvation – in other words they are a result. God saves us for good works, not just to save us.
That said, the poll does not give me the ability to enter in the correct answer 😉

 
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